Date   

Re: Are Modeling Questions In Scope - or Not?

Jim Betz
 

DOH!!!

  I went to this group's page and it seems to imply that how to questions
are on topic.  Correct?
                                                                             - Jim B.


Are Modeling Questions In Scope - or Not?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,


  Most of the posts to this group are directed at the details of the

prototype for the era.  


  Are posts that discuss the methods used to MODEL the

prototype for the era OK, tolerated, or "off topic" and 

should not be posted?


  Example - I have posted and gotten responses about the

brake hoses ... I'd like to move on to discussing how people

are modeling those same hoses.  OK?

                                                                    - Jim B.


Re: Brake Hose Detail Questions ...

earlyrail
 

Originally (1902) they were used to track install and removal dates with a range of years and months cast into the rubber in a manner that allowed the dates to be cut out without damage.
Ref: 1903 Car Builders Dictionary, page 2
Howard (1905) Garner


Re: Tony's Clinic Saturday at BAPM

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

  So I went looking for images on the web of "Tony's Signature Freight Cars" 
examples ... and went back to the following page 


which is, pretty much, a direct copy of Tony's list.  I suspect that there
is an explanation.  ;-)
                                                                                            - Jim B.
 


Re: Brake Hose Detail Questions ...

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Howard,

  Thanks - I suspect those labels were for "wreck identification".
I remembered them wrong (that they were metal instead of
part of the rubber) ... or they are metal these days and they
weren't those days.  So much has been lost ... 
                                                                              - Jim B.
=======================

That is correct, and the rubber looked like a tire patch (remember those?) and wasn't all that big, maybe 3/4" x 1-1/2", long way around the hose.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Ratios

Jim Betz
 

Tim,
  Or were you saying that the number 18 -is- a ratio and it is 18:1?  That seems
more likely?
                            - Jim B.


Re: Brake Hose Detail Questions ...

Jim Betz
 

Howard,

  Thanks - I suspect those labels were for "wreck identification".
I remembered them wrong (that they were metal instead of
part of the rubber) ... or they are metal these days and they
weren't those days.  So much has been lost ... 
                                                                              - Jim B.


Re: Brake Hose Detail Questions ...

earlyrail
 

It is fairly common to see brake hoses (on models) that have been painted.
What I think is correct for our era is that the hose itself (the rubber part)
should be DULL black (rubber) - with considerable road grime that is often
almost brown, and the fittings (valve and hose end) should be oxidized rust
(most of the time), black (some times - if that particular RR painted theirs ...
but still dirty), and ... rarely ... white. Additionally,
I know that some RRs used a band of metal around the hose near the
end that is sometimes painted white, red, or (later, past our era) silver.
Were these bands even there in the post WW-II era?
What I do not think is 'ever' (never say never) right is that the metal
fittings are silver.

Cannot find anything on a metal label.

However, 1953 Car Builders Cyclopedia has this definition:
Air Brake Hose Label. A label of red or white rubber vulcanized to the air-brake hose near one end. In the label is to be branded the initials or name of the railroad or other purchaser; the name of the manufacture; the date of manufacture; the hose serial number; and the monogram of the mechanical association.

Similar requirements date back to 1905 or earlier.

Howard Garner


Re: selling HO freight cars

 

I need your e-mail address in order to send message.  Yahoo does not show e-mail addresses.   HTG


Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

 
    The file on this site posted by me titled Canadian Cars on US Rails, the one which the sub-descriptor titled “17000 cars on US rails in 1950”, in which a letter from the CN relates that there are 17000 XM’s on US rails in September 1950. That letter relates they are needed for newsprint, lumber, and pulpwood. (And this is just CN cars, not CN and CP, so the total number of Canadian cars must be greater.)   

     The 1950 SCO No. 59 (June 1950, several months earlier) above in the same file relates to a need of Canadian XM’s to be returned.  


      In 1950, the combined car fleets of CN and CP numbered more than 160,000 cars. I would say that 17,000 cars in the U.S. is very much in the ballpark of the 10 percent I mentioned. But of course that is an average. And I don't know if September would be a peak month for cars in the U.S. or not.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Ratios

Jim Betz
 

Tim,

  I don't think that number 18 is a ratio, I think it is "dwell time".  Cars were rarely
loaded for only one day?
                                                                                               - Jim B.


Brake Hose Detail Questions ...

Jim Betz
 

Hi,


  It is fairly common to see brake hoses (on models) that have been painted.

What I think is correct for our era is that the hose itself (the rubber part)

should be DULL black (rubber) - with considerable road grime that is often 

almost brown, and the fittings (valve and hose end) should be oxidized rust 

(most of the time), black (some times - if that particular RR painted theirs ... 

but still dirty), and ... rarely ... white.  Additionally,

 I know that some RRs used a band of metal around the hose near the 

end that is sometimes painted white, red, or (later, past our era) silver.

Were these bands even there in the post WW-II era?


  What I do not think is 'ever' (never say never) right is that the metal 

fittings are silver.


  Do I have that, for the most part, correct?  For the post WW-II years!

Are there some RRs for which the exceptions I mentioned above are

'the rule' rather than the exception?

                                                                                                - Jim


Re: Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Bill Welch
 

I want me some Tarvia with "AB" Brakes, good to the last drop I have heard. Any joy anticpated?

Bill Welch


Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

np328
 

Armand and others,

     I realize Tony Thompson and I may differ on the amount of Canadian cars in the US however he is in California, some states south of the border while Minnesota (always serving to keep Canada safe from Iowa), is on the border and well could see more Canadian cars.

     All joking aside, I have some documents which I have presented on and allow you to draw your own conclusions.

     The file on this site posted by me titled Canadian Cars on US Rails, the one which the sub-descriptor titled “17000 cars on US rails in 1950”, in which a letter from the CN relates that there are 17000 XM’s on US rails in September 1950. That letter relates they are needed for newsprint, lumber, and pulpwood. (And this is just CN cars, not CN and CP, so the total number of Canadian cars must be greater.)   

     The 1950 SCO No. 59 (June 1950, several months earlier) above in the same file relates to a need of Canadian XM’s to be returned.  

Later in my own time frame, I came across AAR bi-monthly reports of 1956 and 1957, where the additional data concerning Canadian cars on US rails was found.

From the Nov. 21, 1956 AAR report came this: Because of traffic patterns, there is always a large number of Canadian boxcars located on US roads. The movement of Canadian grain and paper together with miscellaneous commodities has resulted in a tight box car situation on Canadian roads. Handle under SCO 90.”

Then about six months later in history, Jan. 20, 1957 came this: The boxcar balance between the United States and Canada has favored United States roads during the past months, resulting in short supply in Canada. The loading of Canadian ownership box strictly in accordance with Car Service Rules and the expeditious return of these cars to home rails cannot be urged too strongly.

…………

      I will be the first to state that this is still a works in progress however circling back to the earlier file noted and the other internals NP letters in the above STMF file, I feel that I need many CN cars and my past buying habits have reflected this. TLT has some nice ones though pricey.   

      More-so, I would like to check additional Railway Ages in the 1951-1955 time frame and other sources for SCO notices however can state that I am convinced by what I have found so far, that I believe Canadian cars are given too little credit for their numbers on US rails, most notably in the northern tier states.   

           You can read the above, check the file and letters noted, and are free to draw your own conclusions.

                                                                                                     Jim Dick – St. Paul


Re: Gilbert-Nelson

np328
 

Tony,
    thank you for stating the crediting the other Tony,  Tony K, and also informing me.  I recall Richard using this phrase so often that after a while, I just accepted Richard as the author.    Jim Dick - St. Paul


Re: Ratios

Tim O'Connor
 


I don't know anything specific about the A&Y but I think it's fair to point out the LOADED CYCLE TIME
(i.e. days between loads) of box cars was roughly 18 days (i.e. 20 loads per year) back then. (It's more than
that nowadays.)

Now, if your railroad's local industries need 20 box cars per day (on average) and your cycle time is
18 days, then you would need at least 360 box cars for that traffic. Now, it is HIGHLY unlikely that
every home-road car sent off line is always returned home in time for the next load - Instead, incoming
off-road cars delivering loads to your local industries provide a source for box cars for outbound loads.

Of course, if your traffic is captive (originating and terminating on line) then that also affects one's decisions
about home road vs off road car mix.

Finally, some railroads bought cars for loading on FOREIGN roads in cases where a local customer was
buying regularly from a distant off line source. I have two 1950's examples - the Rock Island bought GATC
airslides for loading with cane sugar (from Hawaiian cane) on the SP in northern California, and the CB&Q
bought PS 2893's covered hopper for mineral loading on the SP in Nevada. Automobile and auto parts
pools were another example where many railroads (including bridge roads) contributed cars in proportion to
their share of loaded car miles.

Tim O'Connor

------------------------------------------------

Your proportions reflect the higher number of home road cars on he Santa Fe during the Great Depression. When I was in Sacramento, I discovered an accounting document evidently to justify future expenditures in the mid forties. I am away from my copied pages, but it did track the numbers of foreign. cars on line, and home road cars off line for a period of at least ten years. The percentage of foreign cars grew from about 10% in the early thirties to about 70% during the start of WWII.   I have to verify the exact percentages, but the difference was incredible.

So a word of caution, using that great adult under garment : It Depends!  With the Depression the traffic was really down and foreign cars incurred Per Diem and most RRs were short of cash.  The traffic crush of the war had just about anything that could roll carrying loads.

John Barry  


 It's my railroad, and I chose that to be the Atlantic & Yadkin in 1934. I don't have a wheel report for the A&Y so I got the next best thing--nearly a year of wheel reports from my shortline's owning railroad on the division that shares a yard and interchanges most with the line I model.
 I recently took those reports and selected any road name contributing more than 50 car instances (i.e., recorded on a train) out of the 7000 instances recorded.  That gave me about 20 roads with local names dominating and most big regional or national fleets also represented.
 Then I reduced the numbers proportionally to fit my expected layout capacity of 250 revenue cars. I can scale that up or down as needed.
 I now have that list of cars as my buying and building list.  Those railroads without enough in the wheel reports to "make the cut" (pun intended) can be found in the miscellaneous cars, so long as there is no more than two at one time on the layout. This is my wiggle room for that must have kit.
 Interestingly, I need about 100 home road box cars in the 250 cars. A function of time and geography, but clearly not unprototypical.
 Dave


Tangent Presentation On General American 1917-Design Tank Cars

Tangent Scale Models
 

Gentlemen,

FYI for any of you headed to STL RPM this weekend, I will be presenting a clinic on the history on the formative years of General American with focus on the 1917-design tank car series.  The title is "100 Year Old Crude Oil Technology: General American's 1917-Design Tank Cars."  

Part of the presentation will include a "slide show" of roster shots of various 1917-design tank cars covering builder photos to in-service photos taken in the 1960s, including tank body types not released by Tangent.

To learn a little more, you can read the Agenda page here on our blog:  http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/blog/

See (some of) you there!

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Re: Ratios

John Barry
 

Your proportions reflect the higher number of home road cars on he Santa Fe during the Great Depression. When I was in Sacramento, I discovered an accounting document evidently to justify future expenditures in the mid forties. I am away from my copied pages, but it did track the numbers of foreign. cars on line, and home road cars off line for a period of at least ten years. The percentage of foreign cars grew from about 10% in the early thirties to about 70% during the start of WWII.   I have to verify the exact percentages, but the difference was incredible.

So a word of caution, using that great adult under garment : It Depends!  With the Depression the traffic was really down and foreign cars incurred Per Diem and most RRs were short of cash.  The traffic crush of the war had just about anything that could roll carrying loads.

John Barry  

 



On June 18, 2017, at 9:17 PM, "David Bott dbott@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 

It's my railroad, and I chose that to be the Atlantic & Yadkin in 1934. I don't have a wheel report for the A&Y so I got the next best thing--nearly a year of wheel reports from my shortline's owning railroad on the division that shares a yard and interchanges most with the line I model.

I recently took those reports and selected any road name contributing more than 50 car instances (i.e., recorded on a train) out of the 7000 instances recorded.  That gave me about 20 roads with local names dominating and most big regional or national fleets also represented.

Then I reduced the numbers proportionally to fit my expected layout capacity of 250 revenue cars. I can scale that up or down as needed.

I now have that list of cars as my buying and building list.  Those railroads without enough in the wheel reports to "make the cut" (pun intended) can be found in the miscellaneous cars, so long as there is no more than two at one time on the layout. This is my wiggle room for that must have kit.

Interestingly, I need about 100 home road box cars in the 250 cars. A function of time and geography, but clearly not unprototypical.

Dave

Sent from Dave Bott' iPhone


Re: Gilbert-Nelson

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill Daniels wrote

 By 1960 ... The typical boxcar was now a 50' car with 8 or 9' doors ... and more
 often than not, rode on roller bearings.


Bill, I have to disagree. In 1960 the great majority of box cars were still 40 foot
cars, and most freight cars still rode on plain bearings. I'm sure someone with handy
Railway Age or other references could give us the actual percentages.

Just looking at the T&NO in 1959 (since I have the ORER handy) it shows almost 9,000
40 foot box cars and less than 1,000 50 foot box cars.

Without a doubt the most impactful change to box car traffic from 1930 to 1960 was
the loss of LCL traffic. LCL traffic had once dominated merchandise traffic but trucks
and changes in distribution patterns had radically reduced the traffic, and even the
SP's famous Overnight trains had become nearly all piggyback trailers before 1960. The
loss of LCL and the emergence of -specialized- cars (RBL's XAP's XL's) also contributed
to the reduced percentage of loaded box car miles down towards the present day's barely
better than 50 percent loaded miles.

Tim O'Connor




Re: Tony's Clinic Saturday at BAPM

Jim Betz
 

Tipping my hat to Jeff and Dave ... thanks guys. - Jim B.

43041 - 43060 of 193481