Date   

Re: The new Tangent tank car

Tony Thompson
 

Doug Harding wrote:

 
“Natural Gas” is not gasoline as commonly  used in vehicles. It is naturally occurring gas, primarily methane. 

      This is an odd statement. All hydrocarbons we use as fuel are "naturally occurring." So-called natural gasoline has about the same boiling point as ordinary gasoline, is a liquid under ambient conditions, and calling it a "gas" is certainly misleading. It has a lower octane content than ordinary regular gasoline and can't really be used in modern automobiles, though it can be enriched to suitable octane content.

 LPG is liquefied petroleum gas or butane, commonly known as propane. 


    Um, propane and butane are quite distinct hydrocarbons. In the U.S., LPG nowadays usually is commercially pure propane, though it can contain, and in summer may well contain, a certain amount of butane, But these two names are NOT synonymous.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: The new Tangent tank car

Douglas Harding
 

Tim, the article http://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry.php?entry=WA026 gives a brief history of the Warren Petroleum Corporation. Founded by William Warren in 1922, it was based in Tulsa OK. He sold it to Gulf Oil in 1953. He then went on to start the Transwestern Pipeline Co. in 1959. He got started by purchasing both natural gas and LPG and then delivering them using tank cars and pipelines.

 

“Natural Gas” is not gasoline as commonly  used in vehicles. It is naturally occurring gas, primarily methane. Those of us who live in the mid-west typically heat our homes with natural gas, delivered by pipelines. Today it is being used to fire generating plants, replacing coal, as a clean burning fuel.

 

LPG is liquefied petroleum gas or butane, commonly known as propane. It also is used for home heating, etc. It is also known as bottle gas as it is delivered and stored in pressurized tanks. My grandparents had a dual vertical tank setup (about the size of two 40 gallon water heaters) that fed their furnace and cook stove. Today most use a 500 or 1000 gallon horizontal tank that is refilled from a delivery truck. I know many folks use a small 20lb tank for their gas grill or camper. There is one on my gas grill outside the back door.

 

Some enterprising individuals and railroads have modified internal combustion engines to run on natural gas or LPG. But I believe most of that use is beyond the time frame of this group.

 

As Warren specialized in selling and transporting various forms of natural gas as well as LPG, the company had different tank cars for different commodities. As the company was sold to Gulf in 1953, one would assume the Warren tank car lettering disappeared soon after that date, but it did not. The fleet actually grew.

1941 269 insulated tank cars

1943 378 insulated tank cars

1953 3800 insulated tank cars

1960 4356 insulated tank cars

 

These were both TMI and TPI designations, from 8000-11,000 gal in size. I let a tank car expert interpret the various ARA and ICC degignations.

 

In 1943 there were also 10 tankcars assigned to WK Warren WKWX. In 1953 this was known as the William K Warren Foundation with the same 10 cars.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 12:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The new Tangent tank car

 

 


I think Warren was based in Oklahoma and Texas. LPG can travel very far
and has been a growing fuel since the 1930's. They definitely went to the
west coast, and I think I've seen Warren LPG tank cars in the east.

I thought those ICC 104 tank cars (non-pressure, insulated, with the green
domes) were for "natural gasoline" - basically gasoline straight out of the
ground? How long did those last in service?

Tim O'Connor




During the '50s, I often spotted Warren cars traveling the PRR mainline through Pittsburgh. I cannot state their origin nor destination, however.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


 
I was trying to research the reach of the Warren cars last night in my library with little luck. Any help on timeframe and geographical distribution would be appreciated.

Brian J. Carlson


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Schleigh Mike
 

Yes, they are certainly correct for their numbers, so noted in the 1955 Tariff, as insulated cars.

Thank you David, I have some on order as of yesterday, a pleasant surprise to learn of their offering.

Mike Schleigh, still of Grove City, Penna.



From: "tangentscalemodels@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The new Tangent tank car

 
In case anyone misreads what Mike Schleigh wrote, all six Tangent car numbers as offered are each notated as insulated tanks, per the 1955 tariff book.

I just had someone send me an email playing "gotcha" after misreading Mike's message, claiming the Tangent numbers are "not correct for an insulated car."  All 6 numbers are indeed CORRECT. 

Citation: Page 613 of the 1955 tariff book.

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models



Re: Reboxx products

spsalso
 

I had my first dealings with Reboxx about 2 months ago, over the phone.  I first bought their sample pack, then I used that to figure out my order.

The person on the phone was very helpful.  There was no hint in the conversation that Reboxx was "disappearing".
 
I paid by credit card and got my stuff.

I don't think this operation is big enough to have someone covering the phone all the time.  I wouldn't even be surprised if the owner/operators had actual lives.  Other than selling little bitty wheels.

In fact, the follow-on "main" order was done completely through e-mail, as they then had my credit card on file (with my permission).


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Ed Hawkins
 


On Jun 27, 2017, at 12:49 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

. . . the Monon's 1-500. Imagine my surprise when I learned the model I am working on using an elderly C&BT Shop body, despite its Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy paneled roof, is actually officially designated a PS1.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hwqjqmqnmzy6pgf/AAAA8H2V3VV3PHULCw07xBMua?dl=0

Ed Hawkins presentation on the PS1 through the years kept many of us in our chairs for . . .actually I lost track of time. With the ending of Prototype CYC maybe he will put the contents into a book.

Well done Ed!


Bill,
Thank you for your kind comments, and I appreciate your help in paging through the slides on the PC during the presentation. 

Bill’s comment refers to my slide in which the Pullman-Standard lot list denotes CIL 1-500 as PS-1 box cars (the earliest according to the builder). This is despite these cars with 10-panel welded sides that received 4-4 Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy roofs instead of proprietary PS-1 ends and roofs. The Monon order was assigned a lower lot number (5860) than LV box cars (5783) that the railroad industry considers the earliest PS-1 box cars.

The Nov. 1, 1947 Railway Age article “Cars Built to P-S-1 Design” attributes the earliest as LV 62000-62499, which came with proprietary PS-1 end and roof components. I also found it interesting that the article title used two hyphens in "P-S-1" vs. the more common PS-1 reference. 

Photos from CIL 1-500 and LV 62000-62499 show concurrent production in 6-47. Some LV photos show build dates extending into 7-47. A photo of repainted CIL 195 has 5-47 build date stencils. 

The question of  “which was really the first PS-1” has caused me to wonder if Pullman-Standard had originally planned to use proprietary PS-1 end and roof parts for the Monon cars but lacked having sufficient quantities available to equip all 1,000 cars in both orders, thus a decision to so-equip the LV cars. If that was the case, the company didn’t go back to revise the lot list.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Tangent Scale Models
 

In case anyone misreads what Mike Schleigh wrote, all six Tangent car numbers as offered are each notated as insulated tanks, per the 1955 tariff book.

I just had someone send me an email playing "gotcha" after misreading Mike's message, claiming the Tangent numbers are "not correct for an insulated car."  All 6 numbers are indeed CORRECT. 

Citation: Page 613 of the 1955 tariff book.

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Re: Reboxx products, The sky is not falling!

Pierre Oliver
 

Just got off the phone with Reboxx.
They are very much still in business.
And have piles of wheelsets for sale.
Just because an email or phone call does not get returned in a desired timeframe, does not mean the end of a business

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 6/26/17 7:17 PM, mguill1224@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

I have a close friend who is a Reboxx dealer.  He and I are collectors of HO and O brass models.  He has told me that Reboxx is no longer producing any of the products used for the storage and shipping of brass models.  Many of the boxes and foam insert sets are sold out.  Based on that fact, it is highly likely that the Reboxx wheels are no longer in production.  I will ask him to verify that one way or the other.  Hugh T Guillaume



Re: The new Tangent tank car

Schleigh Mike
 

The 1955 Tank Car Tariff perhaps brings some guidance but perhaps not a complete answer.  The five car numbers David of Tangent has brought to our consideration are all shown in the Tariff as "insulated."  Sprinkled in the Tariff among the Tangent chosen car numbers are many cars noted as"Car used for gasoline."  However, these so marked are not noted as insulated.  All are nominal 8000 gallon tanks.  My Jan 1946 and Oct 1958 ORERs make no distinction within these 200 series cars.  Perhaps the Tariff makes distinction because the "gasoline" service assignment has been so labeled on the car but this is only my speculation.  Perhaps photos can distinguish these differences, if any, someday.

Mike Schleigh in cool Grove City, Penna.



From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The new Tangent tank car

 

I think Warren was based in Oklahoma and Texas. LPG can travel very far
and has been a growing fuel since the 1930's. They definitely went to the
west coast, and I think I've seen Warren LPG tank cars in the east.

I thought those ICC 104 tank cars (non-pressure, insulated, with the green
domes) were for "natural gasoline" - basically gasoline straight out of the
ground? How long did those last in service?

Tim O'Connor





During the '50s, I often spotted Warren cars traveling the PRR mainline through Pittsburgh. I cannot state their origin nor destination, however.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


 
I was trying to research the reach of the Warren cars last night in my library with little luck. Any help on timeframe and geographical distribution would be appreciated.

Brian J. Carlson



And the Very First Pullman PS1 was. . .

Bill Welch
 

. . . the Monon's 1-500. Imagine my surprise when I learned the model I am working on using an elderly C&BT Shop body, despite its Improved Dreadnaught ends and Murphy paneled roof, is actually officially designated a PS1.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hwqjqmqnmzy6pgf/AAAA8H2V3VV3PHULCw07xBMua?dl=0


Ed Hawkins presentation on the PS1 through the years kept many of us in our chairs for . . .actually I lost track of time. With the ending of Prototype CYC maybe he will put the contents into a book.


Well done Ed!


Bill Welch



Re: The new Tangent tank car

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Excellent car - thank you Tangent.
Excellent review - thank you Tony.

Regrettably I have very little need for this particular car/configuration.
I can use them for run thru traffic but we do not have any on layout
industries that would be able/can be 'justified' to receive/ship them. *Sigh*.

What I need are more "crude oil service cars" (because we have a small
oil field.
Different types/looks (just to add interest/variety). As in "basic black
with just the reporting marks" and other such standard/required
lettering - and, in general, no "logo" for a company ... as in
"leased/generic tanks".
I have pretty much all of the existing models - what I'm hoping/looking
for are cars that are different in ways other than just the car number(s).
But also cars that are different classes.

Yes, we have some other "tank car industries" on the layout and those
are pretty much already covered (such as a Texaco dealer).
- Jim


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Tim O'Connor
 


I think Warren was based in Oklahoma and Texas. LPG can travel very far
and has been a growing fuel since the 1930's. They definitely went to the
west coast, and I think I've seen Warren LPG tank cars in the east.

I thought those ICC 104 tank cars (non-pressure, insulated, with the green
domes) were for "natural gasoline" - basically gasoline straight out of the
ground? How long did those last in service?

Tim O'Connor





During the '50s, I often spotted Warren cars traveling the PRR mainline through Pittsburgh. I cannot state their origin nor destination, however.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


 
I was trying to research the reach of the Warren cars last night in my library with little luck. Any help on timeframe and geographical distribution would be appreciated.

Brian J. Carlson


Re: General Steel Casting's: 42'; 53'6"; 60' Flat Car Questions

Bill Welch
 

Thank you Dave, I thought I saw somewhere that the ATSF cars were built in 1954. I model October 1955 so i looks like none of these are in my wheelhouse. I am still going to buy your Bulkhead parts as they may be finer that the Walthers parts I have.

Excellent job with your presentation at Collinsville!

Bill Welch



Re: General Steel Casting's: 42'; 53'6"; 60' Flat Car Questions

Tangent Scale Models
 

Bill,

Here is a roster for the GSC 60'0" flatcars that are good for modelers pre-1960:

ATSF 90900-90999, built 4-56 (offered by Tangent in the past and will be offered again soon)
IC 62600-62609, built 1957
IC 62610-62624, built 1959
SSW 85500-85549, built 9-11 1956
WAB 400-449, built 9-56 (offered by Tangent in the past and will be offered again soon)
WAB 450-599, built 5-59

Please keep in mind that many of these were built by the railroads themselves from kits, so there are some detail variations. 

One of the series I listed above was covered in Patrick Wider's excellent RPC article covering flat car loading practices; page 45, RPC Volume 20 has shots of the latter WAB series. 

The Tangent website has prototype photos as well:
ATSF:  http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/product/atsf-original-1956%E2%80%B3/
SSW:  http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/product/60gscflatcar-ssw-original1956/
WAB (1956 series):  http://www.tangentscalemodels.com/product/60gscflatcar-wab-original1956/

Best wishes,

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Re: Reboxx products

Ted Culotta
 

Here is what I know although the news is a year old:

About 18 months ago, I called and emailed Reboxx about a dealer account (for wheelsets) and received no response. Finally, last spring (2016), I was contacted and advised that I could sign up and order wheelsets. I dropped the ball, but did see Reboxx at the Enfield, CT RPM. We briefly discussed my communications and the result was the same. I could order wheelsets and the ball was IN MY COURT. As can happen when there are many projects and priorities, I did nothing. I was hopeful I would see them at this year's Enfield meet, but they did not attend (even if they were scheduled to attend, the passing of the brother of the founder of Reboxx just prior to the meet would have put the kibosh on that anyway). Also, J.P. Barger, the founder, had turned things over to his grandsons a couple years back. I have no insight into their level of interest in the business or other career plans and aspirations they harbor that might make Reboxx tenuous at best. I think it is still a going concern, but persistence is required to get product.

Cheers,
Ted Culotta


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: The new Tangent tank car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Clark;

Other than the obvious stuff you might find in a 103, anything with a low vaporization point, or high viscosity : phenols, cresols, xylol, coal tar products, resins, asphalt, in short, just about anything except certain acids and compressed gases. This is a model we have needed....forever.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2017 8:15 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [STMFC] Re: The new Tangent tank car



What commodities would these cars have carried?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Jon Miller
 

    General question about placard decals.  Are there any sets available for  my era other than MS 87-975.  For some reason it appears to me that the Microscale set is too new!


-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Insulated/High-Pressure/Chemical Tank Car Questions

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

 
First, Kadee refers to platform differences as "step" platforms" and "full" platforms. Atlas states, "The cars with top platform rails were used where there was no elevated loading/unloading facility. The cars without the top platform rails were often specified for customers that had access to elevated loading and unloading facilities."

     My understanding from Ed Kaminski at ACF is that the buyer specified what they wanted in the way of ALL details, including dome walk arrangements, handrails, etc. So the tone of the Atlas remark suggests a specific rationale for handrails, where in fact the buyer made a decision on a basis that the builder (or anyone else) was not privy to.

So what are the proper terms and does the presence or absence of platforms/rails have any bearing on the year the car was built?

         There are quite early (prior to WW I) examples of platforms and handrails, so I would doubt you have a clear historical fix on year from the dome arrangements. Of course, after 1948 platforms had to be steel grid instead of wood in new construction , so that detail can be informative.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Presence of Canadian Cars

Eric Hansmann
 

I find this discussion fascinating but note that most of the prototype info comes from 1950s orders/publications, with a few notes from the mid-1940s. When did these directives begin? Where can similar detail on Canadian car returns be found for the first few decades of the 20th Century?

We see an evolution of railroad practices and designs across the decades and I find it interesting to dig back to the earliest info to understand more.


Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN



On June 26, 2017 at 8:23 PM "john66h@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:



Here is re-post of text I posted in message # 75098, Aug 14, 2008...


Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" during a discussion regarding efficient
handling of freight cars.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP,; L.P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; R.N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.

Part of their discussion is as follows:


MR. GRANT: We have, as I have stated before, very plain and frank
directives from the AAR and also from the Canadian roads. It's a
year-round order, I think, that we have to return Canadian cars, and
we really catch it when we don't return Canadian cars empty unless we
have loading for them on Canadian line. Of course, Mr. Hopkins'
glasses get fogged up (laughter) or he gets these things mixed up on
the switch list and they load three of four now and then, but that's
just a mistake. In further amplifying that, in the case of a shortage
of cars in the States, frequently Mr. Gass, the AAR officer who puts
out these car directives, will permit us to load Canadian cars. But
it's usually for a very short duration, when they're not short of cars
in Canada.

MEMBER: In certain territories.

MR. GRANT: In certain territories, yes.

MR. HOPKINS: As far as Canadian cars are concerned, we follow Rule 2
very closely. There may be a slip-up now and then, but on the
over-all we either get them back empty or we get them loaded in the
direction that is covered by Rule 2.



John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Posted by: john66h@...


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Kemal Mumcu
 

I've seen them (in Photos) in the steam era in Ontario.

Colin


Re: The new Tangent tank car

Clark Propst
 

What commodities would these cars have carried?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa