Date   

Re: Terminology

Jason Kliewer
 

Here are the track specs.  Notice they are for UP and BNSF.


The section of track is called a turnout.  The switch is the movable part of the turnout.  It's even labeled right in the drawings.

Why this is so hard to grasp, baffles the mind.

Jason Kliewer
Colorado Springs, CO


Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants (Corn Syrup)

Gary McMills
 

I was speaking of today or post 1960.

Gary McMills 



----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
02 Jul 2017 16:33:44 +0000
Subject:
Re: [STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants (Corn Syrup)


 

Probably not, for two reasons.

 

1. Although corn syrup was invented in 1812 in Russia, developmental work in the United States was carried out in the 1950s and 1960s, with shipments of the first commercial product to the food industry occurring in the late 1960s.

 

2. These early bottling plants received soda concentrate that already had the beet or cane sugar mixed in.


Today, of course, centralized, large soda production plants receive a lot of corn syrup and the small local bottling plants largely have disappeared.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants (Corn Syrup)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Probably not, for two reasons.

 

1. Although corn syrup was invented in 1812 in Russia, developmental work in the United States was carried out in the 1950s and 1960s, with shipments of the first commercial product to the food industry occurring in the late 1960s.

 

2. These early bottling plants received soda concentrate that already had the beet or cane sugar mixed in.


Today, of course, centralized, large soda production plants receive a lot of corn syrup and the small local bottling plants largely have disappeared.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Silicone for attaching . . . NOT

Gary McMills
 

Depends,

Do you need to hold together forever ? ,use J-B Weld.

I've use Elmer's ,it holds if  you don't plan to slam the car around.

Gary McMills -Baton Rouge,La. 



----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
Sat, 1 Jul 2017 15:21:00 -0700
Subject:
Re: [STMFC] Re: Silicone for attaching . . . NOT


 

Pierre Oliver wrote:

 
I've used it, successfully, for years now. A generous bead of silicone on clean dry surfaces, and it adheres very well. It won't dry out over time like contact cements and it'll take some shock without the weight coming loose.

       Probably we can be divided into two groups: those who have experienced an adhesive failure with silicone, and those who haven't (or haven't yet). As for contact cement "drying out," I have some models built with Goo, applied in contact mode, over 40 years ago. Good luck separating those joints. I have tried, and needed heroic measures to get them apart.
        In short, to my surprise, I find myself in total disagreement with Mr. Oliver on this topic!

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press,! Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Arch bar trucks / was Re: Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555

Charles Peck
 

Perhaps I have this wrong but I did not see the archbar ban as being an absolute.  My understanding
is that having archbars ruled out unlimited interchange.  Individual railroads could choose to accept
archbar equipped cars on a case by case basis.  For instance a shipper owned car that went from 
a mill on the L&N to a plant on the Southern could pass through interchange IF both railroads chose
to allow it.  The ban meant they were not obliged to accept those cars in interchange.
A number of railroad museums have persuaded railroads to move equipment that for some number of
reasons were not suitable for open interchange.  
That pickle car that made 6 trips a year from the farms on the GM&O to the pickle plant on the IC might
be voluntarily accepted by both roads who wanted to keep the business and did not own pickle cars
to use instead. 
So am I wrong on this?  Were the railroads not allowed to accept such archbar equipped cars?
Chuck Peck 

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

A few years ago, Richard Hendrickson sent me a wedge shot of ATSF 241461, a BX-15 class boxcar, in Pensacola Florida, in 1945. The car had archbar trucks.

I'm sure if we all scour the LoC and Barriger image collections, we can come up with a few more random images of free-roaming archbar trucks after the ban. It did happen, although the overall numbers of cars would probably be a rounding error more than a statistically important number.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: "STMFC@..." <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Arch bar trucks / was Re: [STMFC] Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555



Jim,

Yes,I agree that there may have been arch trucks in use during my era, including on the boat flats at Point Richmond.  I can and will use the great Tahoe trucks for that application, as well as some of the company flats at the Kaiser shipyard.  But I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek to claim conformance with this detail that may have gone out of the practice with simplification of car lettering as it evolved through the 20s, hence the disclaimer for legally interchanged cars.  

John
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 3:51 PM
Subject: Arch bar trucks / was Re: [STMFC] Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555

 
    
John Barry wrote:  
I faithfully reproduce that detail on ALL of the arch bar trucks legally used in interchange on my December 1944 layout!  Oh, rats, they were outlawed before the war;
 
     John, I think most all of us could have / justify at least one or two arch bar trucked cars on our layouts, with-in researched reasoning.
     On my most researched railroad, the Northern Pacific, I have letters of some wood sided, steel underframed cabooses were retired in the mid 1960's with arch bar trucks intact. (well beyond this lists time frame) Some of these cabooses were of “normal” crew configuration, others were side door cabooses used in local LCL service to the railroad. Since none went off line, they were all legal.
   If you have a working interchange with another railroad, you might have the other railroad's caboose have arch bar trucks.
    Tank cars used in company service could also apply, if these were water cars for work trains and of course work train cars could have some arch bar trucks. One does not need a full string of work cars, one car parked next to the roundhouse could be enough. Cinder gons, etc.
    Limited application examples, yes - perhaps however with research as stated above, one or two cars would be enough to add flavor and still be entirely prototypical.   
                                                                                                   Jim Dick - Roseville, MN     









A Few More Tank Cars - Barriger Library

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here are a few more tank cars:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12645046613/in/dateposted/

 

Can anyone HAZARD a guess as to what spilled from the dome of the one tank car?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Soda Pop Bottling Plants

Gary McMills
 

Corn syrup tank cars,

Gary McMills- Baton Rouge La. 



----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
01 Jul 2017 20:45:40 +0000
Subject:
[STMFC] Soda Pop Bottling Plants


 

I came across this photo of the G. Ferlita & Sons Bottling Plant in Tampa, Florida:

 

http://digitalcollections.hcplc.org/digital/collection/p15391coll1/id/10323

 

It reminded me that during the era of this group, especially in the earlier years, the country was dotted with bottling plants and many were initially served by rail with their own spurs.

 

Here is another example:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12594501174/in/dateposted/?ytcheck=1

 

That got me to thinking about what was delivered to these plants by rail. I could think of several things:

 

Carbon dioxide gas

Cleaning and sterilization chemicals (for equipment and reused bottles)

Cork seals

New bottles

Packaging supplies

Soda concentrate

Water treatment chemicals

 

I assume no sugar was required as that already was in the concentrate for cola drinks, although sugar might be required for citrus-based drinks.

 

And I assume all of this would arrive by boxcar with maybe a reefer used for the concentrate.

 

Does anyone have insight into what actually was received by bottling plants and what kinds of freight cars were used?

 

This information would be useful for an operating session on a layout that had such a bottling plant with its own spur.

 

Thanks.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Placards [Was: New Tangent Tank Cars]

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 7/1/2017 7:03 PM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:
12-page table from General American's Tank Car Handbook,

    OK so my new Tangent tank (GATX "Globe Soap Cincinnati") is filled with soap (maybe no soap).  As it comes from Tangent the placard has nothing on it.  As the car is "N.R." (I looked at the 12 pages) does that mean there should be no placard as as soap is harmless?

    Beautiful car by the way.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Terminology

David Payne
 

 
 
In a message dated 7/2/2017 12:20:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
For example, is a 4-8-4 steam locomotive a "Northern";? Or is it an "FEF" or perhaps simply a "2900" or perhaps a "GS-4"?
 
Or "K Class" ... or "Big Apple" ...
 
DPayne
 


More Boxcars From The Barriger Library

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here are three more links with better than "average Barriger quality" photos of boxcars:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12645403714/in/dateposted/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12644924805/in/photostream/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12682503304/in/dateposted/

 

I know less than many folks on this list about freight cars, so gentlemen, I await your comments. I always benefit from the knowledge you share.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Arch bar trucks / was Re: Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555

Ray Breyer
 

A few years ago, Richard Hendrickson sent me a wedge shot of ATSF 241461, a BX-15 class boxcar, in Pensacola Florida, in 1945. The car had archbar trucks.

I'm sure if we all scour the LoC and Barriger image collections, we can come up with a few more random images of free-roaming archbar trucks after the ban. It did happen, although the overall numbers of cars would probably be a rounding error more than a statistically important number.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]"
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Arch bar trucks / was Re: [STMFC] Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555



Jim,

Yes,I agree that there may have been arch trucks in use during my era, including on the boat flats at Point Richmond.  I can and will use the great Tahoe trucks for that application, as well as some of the company flats at the Kaiser shipyard.  But I had my tongue firmly planted in my cheek to claim conformance with this detail that may have gone out of the practice with simplification of car lettering as it evolved through the 20s, hence the disclaimer for legally interchanged cars.  

John
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 3:51 PM
Subject: Arch bar trucks / was Re: [STMFC] Another Steamtown NHS Image - DL&W 38555

 
    
John Barry wrote:  
I faithfully reproduce that detail on ALL of the arch bar trucks legally used in interchange on my December 1944 layout!  Oh, rats, they were outlawed before the war;
 
     John, I think most all of us could have / justify at least one or two arch bar trucked cars on our layouts, with-in researched reasoning.
     On my most researched railroad, the Northern Pacific, I have letters of some wood sided, steel underframed cabooses were retired in the mid 1960's with arch bar trucks intact. (well beyond this lists time frame) Some of these cabooses were of “normal” crew configuration, others were side door cabooses used in local LCL service to the railroad. Since none went off line, they were all legal.
   If you have a working interchange with another railroad, you might have the other railroad's caboose have arch bar trucks.
    Tank cars used in company service could also apply, if these were water cars for work trains and of course work train cars could have some arch bar trucks. One does not need a full string of work cars, one car parked next to the roundhouse could be enough. Cinder gons, etc.
    Limited application examples, yes - perhaps however with research as stated above, one or two cars would be enough to add flavor and still be entirely prototypical.   
                                                                                                   Jim Dick - Roseville, MN     








Re: Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon

Ray Breyer
 

>>I've not had a chance to examine this on my larger screen.  Do you have a number series and know when they retired? 
>>It would be a very interesting variation to model.  A little late in the same album is another photo with more of these unique
>>ends plus another Hutchins ended gon.
>>John Barry


Hi John,

These can be considered THE standard Monon freight car for the steam era; nearly a quarter (1476 of 6184 freight cars) of their entire freight car fleet in 1930 was made up of these cars, which were essentially "Improved USRA" clones.

31000-31299 - built by the CI&L shops, 1922
32400-33299 - built 1923
33300-33599 - built by Pullman, 7/1923

The cars mostly didn't survive WWII, with only 525 of the cars left in 1945. Per the Monon's 1947 diagram book, only a few were left as captive service stone cars in the 4601-4716 series, with none at all showing up in the revenue roster.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
 



Re: Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Actually, three. The last car in the string also appears to have a “coiled” end.


Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2017 12:21 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon





Two more of this distinctive end, spotted next to a composite gon with a Hutchins end.



30 021 <https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/19140882098/in/album-72157652984498874/>











Image removed by sender.


30 021







John Barry



ATSF North Bay Lines

Golden Gates & Fast Freights

Lovettsville, VA



707-490-9696



PO Box 44736

Washington, DC 20026-4736



_____

From: "John Barry northbaylines@att.net [STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC YahooGroup <stmfc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Gondola with coiled end corrugation





Wabash164 <https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12296990864/in/album-72157640471385906/>









Image removed by sender.


Wabash164





In the Wabash album of the Barrenger collection is this gondola with a very unusual end corrugation. Looks like a coiled form was used to press the continuous corregation. Any ideas whose car this is? The same pattern end is on the opposite end as you can see the hollow side. I think I found a project for my vaccuform!



John Barry



ATSF North Bay Lines

Golden Gates & Fast Freights < /div>

Lovettsville, VA



707-490-9696



PO Box 44736

Washington, DC 20026-4736







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Terminology

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

I'm a little surprised by the fact that no one has mentioned this (this
time around) ...

There were definitely two 'languages' regarding a lot of the terminology
in use by railroaders. Specifically the use of different names for things
that occurred between the road/field crews (the guys on the 'ground')
and the engineering departments (the guys in the 'offices'). Neither
was "wrong" - it was just what words they used - every day.
The 'industry publications' tended to use the same terms that the
guys in the offices used ... it was who they were dealing with daily.

****

I'm also considerably surprised ... and even a little bit disappointed ...
that guys I consider to be 'giants in our hobby' have -again- deemed it
important to roll out this recurring topic and opine at length on the
'correctness' of one term or another.
To me - both sides are well known and understood by the members
of this list and we should just give it a rest.
In addition - whether I call it a switch or a turnout ... you all know
what I'm talking about ... so what's the big deal about which word I
use? Are you a brakeman or a 'suit'? I try to modify my usage based
upon the role I think you fill.

****

On the other hand - if I call something a "ponger" just because I
find it difficult to spell/type/say "diaphragm" when the entire
industry and most other hobbyists call it by only one name ... I'm
'wrong' (although you still know what I'm talking about).

BUT - when we, as hobbyists, use our own term within the hobby
for something that the industry (either segment) didn't ever use ...
I agree that it's 'wrong' for us to do so. Even though I know what
you are talking about when you use those terms - I tend to correct
you.

===> Hopefully, when I do so, I do it in a way that doesn't
offend you and you learn and start using the correct
term rather than an incorrect one.

My preferred method of doing that 'correction' is to simply use
the correct term when responding - without pointing out what I'm
doing nor even without my emphasizing the correct term - and
you 'pick up' on it without having had it "pointed out to you".
- Jim B.


Re: Terminology

Arianne Coble
 

 Oh man, why in the world would you want to bring this up again? The terminology discussion seems to come up from time to time and to what end. Are we filling out legal documents? Are we on trial or giving a deposition? I find these discussions to be circle arguments. For example, as has been mentioned and references sited, the term switch and turnout are accurate and appropriate to describe the same piece of track arrangement, so why must we argue over which one to use? It does little in the way of promoting clarity, help us model better, or for that matter discuss issues. Here in the real world we are trying to communicate with one another, so as long as the listener or reader understands what the speaker or writer is communicating what on earth does the “proper” term matter? It tends to remind me of someone during a conversation who mid sentence corrects you on the grammar error you made.
Kyle Coble Auburn Indiana


Re: Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon

John Barry
 

Eric,

Thanks,  I've not had a chance to examine this on my larger screen.  Do you have a number series and know when they retired?  It would be a very interesting variation to model.  A little late in the same album is another photo with more of these unique ends plus another Hutchins ended gon.

John
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "Eric Hansmann eric@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 2, 2017 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon

 
John,
The Monon had a number of gondolas with this kind of pressed steel end reminiscent of a Van Dorn end. If you look closely at the gondola with this end, you can make out part of MONON in the shadow near the top left corner of the car.

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On July 1, 2017 at 10:20 PM "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" wrote:



Two more of this distinctive end, spotted next to a composite gon with a Hutchins end.



 
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC YahooGroup
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Gondola with coiled end corrugation

 
 


In the Wabash album of the Barrenger collection is this gondola with a very unusual end corrugation.  Looks like a coiled form was used to press the continuous corregation.  Any ideas whose car this is?  The same pattern end is on the opposite end as you can see the hollow side.  I think I found a project for my vaccuform!
 
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736
 





Posted by: John Barry



Re: Tank Cars On The SP

Paul Deis
 

What cars did the SP use to ship the oil into San Luis Obispo for Loco fuel for steam engines?

Paul Deis



Paul Deis
D&P Mountain Railroad
SP Santa Margarita Sub





Turnout Terminology

Andy Carlson
 

I wasn't "attempting to be funny", I was sarcastically expressing my annoyance with attempts over the decades to SUBSTITUTE the word "Turnout' for switch. Sure, most recognize what a turnout is, but it is an unnecessary addition which does not add utility for our uses. The example of moving parts vs. non-moving parts is not the reason most users of "turnout" are conveying. So maybe both are synonymous terms; then why the effort to abandon the term "Switch" which EVERYONE knows simply because "Turnout" was/is used sometimes by the various non-operations departments?

Regards,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"

 
Andy Carlson wrote:

 
Let the industry's practitioners define the terms. RR turnout jobs, head and rear turnout men, throw the turnout on the main, and my favorite--Turnout stands.
Switches are little chromium toggles for electricity! (snark)

    Andy is of course attempting to be funny. But the fact is, the term "turnout" is NOT, repeat NOT, just a modelers' term. It is well embedded in prototype usage, when it is necessary to distinguish between the movable part and the fixed part of the track arrangement. You can look it up. But prototype usage, both in track engineering and in signaling, tends to use the two terms as synonyms. In other words, despite Andy's snarky language, a prototype railroader would NOT be confused by the term "turnout" for a track switch.
    It's true that Model Railroader magazine editors, years ago, decided to refer always to track switches as turnouts, to obtain separation from electrical switches, but that does not affect the prototype language. 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Re: Silicon for attaching weights

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

CLEAR silicone is not an adhesive (usually so warned on the label) but has an uncanny ability to simply grab onto a surface, fingers of silicone locking into any crevice, or irregularity. . The objects so joined can be resilient to mild stresses, but when separated, the silicone just peels off. This characteristic makes it quite useful in mounting new can motors in brass locomotives, and I have done so for about 20 years. . Flat featureless or painted surfaces are a recipe for failure. It is also pretty inert, probably the reason that it is commonly used to seal aquariums, and probably exactly why it has so poor adhesive qualities.

The blue Barge Cement in the small consumer tubes holds as well as the old yellow (only now available in bulk amounts). The blue is not as easy to work (more stringy-ness), but it is certainly manageable. As Tony Thompson avers, contact cements properly applied, like Barge, GOO, or Pliobond, provide incredibly strong lasting adhesion, virtually all failures that I have experienced (I have used them in modeling since the ‘50s) have been substrate failure, i.e. peeling paint, deteriorating or poor surface preparation, etc. Non destructive separation does not become an option.

Canopy and Kwik Clear: Sleeper adhesives that are incredibly useful for modelers. I do think that too much may be asked of these adhesives inasmuch as they are simply not the strongest.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA


Re: Two more Gondolas with coiled end corrugations Plus a Hutchins end Gon

Eric Hansmann
 

John,

The Monon had a number of gondolas with this kind of pressed steel end reminiscent of a Van Dorn end. If you look closely at the gondola with this end, you can make out part of MONON in the shadow near the top left corner of the car.


Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN



On July 1, 2017 at 10:20 PM "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:



Two more of this distinctive end, spotted next to a composite gon with a Hutchins end.



 
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC YahooGroup <stmfc@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2017 6:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Gondola with coiled end corrugation

 
 


In the Wabash album of the Barrenger collection is this gondola with a very unusual end corrugation.  Looks like a coiled form was used to press the continuous corregation.  Any ideas whose car this is?  The same pattern end is on the opposite end as you can see the hollow side.  I think I found a project for my vaccuform!
 
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736
 





Posted by: John Barry <northbaylines@...>

37841 - 37860 of 188615