Date   
Re: Pacific Electric Tank Body - Part Of Tank Car?

thecitrusbelt@...
 

From the Yahoo Pacific Electric site today...


OK, now I have more of the facts.  It is not a boiler but a fuel oil tank.  This is very apparent upon close examination of the thin material and riveting.  The tank was originally at 7th & Central and was later (1911?) moved to the Torrance Shops.  As to whether they (there was also another tank) were actually used for fuel oil to supply the boilers is supposition.  We have photos of the 2 tanks outside a building laying near each other.  By the way, the plate on the tank reads "LA Boiler Works Los Angeles".

Hank Winn



Re: Steel door patches?

Don Burn
 

The D&H had a number of their USRA single sheathed boxcars with patches like
that, both the Essential Freight Car article and the RPC article had
pictures of these cars.

Don Burn

Re: Steel door patches?

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Heninger wrote:
"I believe that car is one of the IC cars modeled by Ted Culotta in his Essential Freight Cars series. The door was rebuilt when the cars were rebuilt into single door cars from door and a half cars. F&C produced a kit for it years ago, but it has been unavailable for some time. Not sure if the patches are metal, too, but it is possible."

It's still listed on their website:

Plus it was originally one of the kits in the NEB&W Green Dot line offered at RPI, so the initial date of offering c. 1990.  If you don't mind working with the old yellow resin of the early issues, you stand a really good chance of finding one of these kits.


Ben Hom


Re: Steel door patches?

Robert Heninger
 

Gary,


I believe that car is one of the IC cars modeled by Ted Culotta in his Essential Freight Cars series. The door was rebuilt when the cars were rebuilt into single door cars from door and a half cars. F&C produced a kit for it years ago, but it has been unavailable for some time. Not sure if the patches are metal, too, but it is possible.


Regards,

Bob Heninger

Minot, ND



Steel door patches?

gary laakso
 

It is an interesting wood door with a steel lower portion and are those steel patches on the wood portion?

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1948-Aug-Wheelon/i-cXVB9mt/A 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

Re: HO 20 car freight car train

vapeurchapelon
 

Bruce and Tim,
 
I apologize, of course you are correct. I understood the term "generic location" in that there was meant something in the central US where those cars were frequently seen.
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Juli 2017 um 02:22 Uhr
Von: "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]"
An: "STMFC@..."
Betreff: Re: [STMFC] Re: HO 20 car freight car train
 

 

​Johannes,

 

We're not only talking quality here, but representative cars.  Unless you are a western US modeler, that's not a choice I would make.

 

Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 4:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Aw: [STMFC] Re: HO 20 car freight car train
 
 
I would not forget the truly excellent (in my eyes) Red Caboose drop bottom gondola - either wood or steel.
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Juli 2017 um 23:45 Uhr
Von: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
An: stmfc@...
Betreff: [STMFC] Re: HO 20 car freight car train
 


Todd's list is excellent for a newbie - But I would substitute
the Broadway Limited car for the NYC (it's the only resin kit in
Tod's list), and NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer
in HO scale, for the 1950's or any other time period.

So substitute a hopper car (open or covered) for the RP reefer,
and you're all set.

Tim O'Connor



 

Well, here's a stab at the 20 cars (in no particular order):
  1. PRR X29 (Red Caboose)
  2. PRR G31 gondola (Tangent)
  3. NYC 'USRA' steel 40' boxcar (Westerfield)
  4. CB&Q 40' postwar boxcar (IMR)
  5. B&O Wagontop (Exactrail or Fox)
  6. PFE 40' reefer (Red Caboose or IMR)
  7. SP 53' flat w/ lbr load (RC/SP Soc + Owl Mtn)
  8. UP 40' boxcar (sorry, I like the Trix despite it's problems)
  9. SOU 40' AAR boxcar (RC or IMR)
  10. ATSF 40' 1937 boxcar (RC)
  11. UTLX ICC 105 tank car (Atlas or Kadee)
  12. SHPX 10k Type 27 tank car
  13. GATX 6k 3-dome tank car (Tangent)
  14. FGCX 50' mech reefer - the very early style (RC?)
  15. RI 40' PS-1 "100 Years" (Kadee)
  16. B&O offset side twin hopper (Kadee?)
  17. GARX 37' meat reefer - pick a lessee (Rapido)
  18. SFRD 40' reefer (IMR)
  19. B&M 40' 1937 AAR boxcar (RC)
  20. PRR X31 or X32 round roof auto bx (Bowser)
Now the wrangling about druthers can begin!

Todd Sullivan

 

 
 
 

 

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

Bill Welch
 

$2.25 per part seems reasonable this day and time. There is additional shipping but maybe order two sets at the same shipping cost.

Bill Welch

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

Tim O'Connor
 


A Royal F slack adjuster is available from Shapeways.
Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



Yep. Not cheap though. 3D Detail parts can really drive up the cost of
a super-detailed model!

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CLN3G7UA4/ho-brake-regulator-slack-adjuster-kit

Tim O'

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

al_brown03
 

A Royal F slack adjuster is available from Shapeways.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike,

You are partly correct - someone MADE (not MAKES) a 50 foot RP, the Pacific HO
model that you mentioned. And you're correct, Wright Trak made EXACTLY THE SAME
car, but with a fancier and more accurate underframe, improved roof and ends, and
other details as you said. But I'm not sure Wright Trak is still in production.
In any case, it's not a newbie kit.

FGE had around 700 cars (multiple orders), WFE (200 in 4 orders), BRE (less than
50 cars I think) all had them, or something closely resembling them. A high-fidelity
RTR model probably would be as good a choice as any other. The cars built by FGE
were the most numerous 50 foot RP prototype before 1960.

The main FGEX series was 1000-1600, 600 cars in 1959. These cars all appear to be
identical. FGE also had more than 100 cars scattered in 1-999 series.

The Pacific HO kit was notable for its inclusion of a detail no one else has ever
done (well?) in an HO kit - a cast metal Royal F slack adjuster.

I would be very interested in a Santa Fe prototype. Some of the Santa Fe cars had
54 foot bodies, e.g. 500 Rr-69's built by General American. Too modern for STMFC :-(

Tim O'




Hello Group!

Tim O'Connor recently stated ".....and NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer
in HO scale, for the 1950's or any other time period."

This seems to me incorrect.  I immediately thought of two examples.  After the KurtzKraft PS-1 and 40 foot reefer 'flat kits' came something in the mid-1960s from Pacific HO of Pomona, Calif.  It was another flat kit labeled 50' Mechanical Reefer.  While sold for, I think four different road names, at least one was correct (again, I think) for the FGEX 1300 series.  Other than better running boards, ladders, hand holds, and some of the details we can add, this kit would live up to most current rivet counting expectations.

Even if the above is unacceptable, WrightTrak produced the same FGEX/Western Fruit kit in very crisp resin and etchings.  It seems a lovely job we should be happy to have and build.

This prototype perhaps came later than the 1955 hypothetical 20 car train but the prototype was certainly with us before January 1, 1961.  The kits are still with us if you look for them.

Regards from Grove City in Western Penna.----Mike Schleigh

Re: Pacific Electric Tank Body - Part Of Tank Car?

Richard Townsend
 

Looking at the expansion dome I see two things that catch my eye. One, the fittings and holes on the top are asymmetrical. And there are only two small holes for possible anchoring of whatever originally was on the top of the dome. I don't think that is sufficient for a steam dome. Second, it looks like there is a plate of some kind bolted to the side of the dome that faces down. I wonder if anything readable is on the plate?
 
My guess is: water tank, perhaps for boiler water at the shops.
 
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC Sent: Thu, Jul 27, 2017 9:29 am
Subject: [STMFC] Pacific Electric Tank Body - Part Of Tank Car?

 
Recently I had a chance to visit the back storage areas at the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris, CA. While there I spotted what I believe is a tank from a tank car sitting in a skewed position atop and detached from a tank car frame. The tank had the word "Torrance" written on it, probably a reference to PE's Torrance Shops.
 
I cannot be sure the tank belonged to the frame just because they were loosely together. My reasoning is the tank has single rivet rows. The Master Car Builders required double rows of rivets for tank construction effective May 1, 1917. The frame indicates it was built in 1923. I have placed five photos in our Photo Section in an album titled, "Bob Chaparro Images". Link:
 
 
It's possible the tank was installed on this frame to replace a damaged tank many years ago, but I tend to doubt this.
 
The uncertainty associated with this is that one individual on the Yahoo Pacific Electric list claims this is a boiler, stating:
 
"The "tank" is actually one of the boilers from the Torrance Shops. Three weeks ago one of our members found shop photos showing two of the boilers outside of a building and did the "rivet counting" thing for comparison.  It was placed on the railcar frame years ago as a matter of convenience or to fool people, depending upon to whom you ask."
 
This doesn't look like a boiler to me.
 
Can anyone shed light on this tank and frame?
 
Thanks.
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: HO 20 car freight car train

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

 

We're not only talking quality here, but representative cars.  Unless you are a western US modeler, that's not a choice I would make.

 

Tony Thompson responded:

  But if we avoid any regional "bias," we have a generic train which wouldn't have run anywhere. Even bridge-route trains differ inside and outside of coal country.

 

 

Dave Bott opines:

 

There’s no right answer to a hypothetical question based upon a fictional situation that never happened.  There can only be opinions and choices.  I don’t think Bruce suggested that all modelers except western US modelers would make that choice, only that he would not.

 

I may make a completely different choice because I have a North Carolina regional bias.  We can say a particular historical statement is right or wrong, but a thought exercise like Andy Carlson’s, while interesting and can generate thought about the models and lots of posts to the list, it cannot be answered definitively.  I don’t think there is any way to rephrase a fictional hypothetical, keep it fictional, and get a definitive answer.

 

For example, we can pose the question what is the most generic freight car of the steam era, but someone will argue that generic means “most numerous” (all time or on a specific date?) and another will argue “most widely traveled” and both questions will have definitive answers, but that won’t determine which question was “better” to ask.

 

And 1955 is a slow pitch softball question to this list.

 

Heck, for a Southern fan, 1955 is not even transition, it’s post steam era, even if the list definition goes further to cover major class 1 steam’s regular running.

 

And then Dave Bott asks:

 

What 20 cars would be on a 1935, 1925, 1915 or a 1905 train?  Now those will take some thought.  And I would argue they are more centrally located in the time frame of steam era than 1955 too.

 

And hint: Eric Hansmann has a blog entry that might answer the question for 1925…

 

 

Re: HO 20 car freight car train

Tim O'Connor
 


Has anyone tabulated? ... for all North American railroads:

1. the number of 10'0" IH 1937 AAR box cars (4/5 ends)
2. the number of 10'6" IH 1940 AAR box cars (5/5 ends)
3. the number of 40 foot 1947-1949 PS-1 box cars
4. the number of 40 foot 1950-1952 PS-1 box cars
5. the number of 40 foot 1953+ PS-1 box cars

The above 5 car types, I think, must represent a significant percentage
of all box car production for the 20 years, 1937 to 1956.

For example, for (1) alone the SP and T&NO had 7,994 cars by my count.
The C&NW/CMO bought 9,765 of (3)(4)(5) altogether, and were also large
buyers of (2) - thousands of cars. So we're close to 20,000 cars and that's
just two major railroads. For ALL owners, I think the above 5 could easily
break 100,000 cars, or about ONE out of FIVE 40 foot box cars of all types
by the late 50's.

My point being that if you follow the N-G model, the above types may be
20% or more of the cars that you'd need.

Tim O'Connor





Garth,

Not to beat a dead horse, but if the request is with respect to boxcars, it most certainly is possible and since Andy refers to the N-G model, I'll assume that's what he meant.  Flat cars work that way too. Doing it that way one would fail to account for home road cars being present in higher numbers but basically, we should just name the 20 most common boxcar classes in the US for 1955.

If you add in hoppers, guns, tank cars, and reefers, then yes, I agree with you.

Regards
Bruce Smith



There really is no "generic" location, and while sparking an lively conversation, "generic" has no real relevance. The suggested mix of cars seems to be typical of the upper midwest, and that's fine if it is your interest. It probably gives the best spread of roads nationally.

A train on the West Coast would be quite different, and would be tipped heavily toward whatever major railroad owned the track (or for a shortline was their main connection): ATSF, UP, SP, WP, GN, NP, or MILW.

My interest right now is a Southern-connected Virginia shortline, and the mix would be tipped heavily towards Southern equipment, with boxcars, a hopper and a gondola making up around 1/3 of the train, 1-2 FEGX reefers, representative cars (mostly boxcars) from the B&O, NYC, PRR, SAL, ACL, with the requisite NP boxcar and one boxcar each from the SP and ATSF.

Garth Groff

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

Tim O'Connor
 

Bob

The ancient Athearn R-70-11 and Athearn R-70-5 actually have fairly accurate sides, but the
roof and ends were borrowed from their 50 foot box car, and the underframe was modified to
accomodate fuel tanks but otherwise is equally bogus. And of course all the ladders etc are
molded in place, and there are no etched metal details.

One of the features I really like about the R-70-5 was its use of two DIFFERENT ends. On the
end of the car with refrigeration unit, there is a 5/5 dreadnaught end, and on the other end of
the car is a 3/4 improved dreadnaught end.

For more than 50 years (!!!) people have been kitbashing them into better models. It really is time
for improved models!

Athearn clearly has the ability to produce superior models when they want to. They have produced
MANY excellent post-1960 models including modern 57 foot FGE reefers that are just outstanding.

Tim O'Connor




Tim O'Connor mentioned, "NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer in HO scale..."

I have a long-time friend in Athearn's product development department (OK, I know some of you would prefer a more esteemed manufacturer.)  and I have been asking him for a first generation fifty-foot mechanical reefer for about six years.

About four months ago he told me Athearn has this on the table for discussion, along with several other cars as you would expect. They are still mulling this over but maybe, just maybe, this project will get the green light.

I save my prayers for more important things but this definitely is high up on my personal wish list. Uncle Irv, wherever you are (opinions vary), please answer my wish.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: HO 20 car freight car train

Todd Sullivan
 

I can't reply to two messages at once, but this is intended as a response to Bill's (below) and Garth's comments. 

Regarding my selection of cars, it was based on a fairly wide geographic acquaintance with various railroads.  I grew up in New England and watched trains there from an early age, moved to Portland OR at age 16 and worked as a railway yard clerk there later, moved to Syracuse, then San Antonio, then the Hudson Valley, Southern Tier of NY and back to Syracuse.  I've modeled the PRR in eastern PA as well as various RRs in the PacNW, and have books on railroads in all these regions.  Garth is correct about regional concentrations of cars, but I am always amazed at the variety of railroads represented in photos taken all over the country, and I often wonder, "What was THAT car carrying and how the heck did it wind up here?"

On GS gons, I have seen photos of Illinois Central GS gons on PRR coal branches in PA and on PacNW railroads, so if one were to be included, I'd vote for that.  Otherwise, they were pretty scarce in the East.

This is fun - thanks, Andy!

Todd.

Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

Schleigh Mike
 

Hello Group!

Tim O'Connor recently stated ".....and NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer
in HO scale, for the 1950's or any other time period."

This seems to me incorrect.  I immediately thought of two examples.  After the KurtzKraft PS-1 and 40 foot reefer 'flat kits' came something in the mid-1960s from Pacific HO of Pomona, Calif.  It was another flat kit labeled 50' Mechanical Reefer.  While sold for, I think four different road names, at least one was correct (again, I think) for the FGEX 1300 series.  Other than better running boards, ladders, hand holds, and some of the details we can add, this kit would live up to most current rivet counting expectations.

Even if the above is unacceptable, WrightTrak produced the same FGEX/Western Fruit kit in very crisp resin and etchings.  It seems a lovely job we should be happy to have and build.

This prototype perhaps came later than the 1955 hypothetical 20 car train but the prototype was certainly with us before January 1, 1961.  The kits are still with us if you look for them.

Regards from Grove City in Western Penna.----Mike Schleigh 



From: "thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

 
Tim O'Connor mentioned, "NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer in HO scale..."
 
I have a long-time friend in Athearn's product development department (OK, I know some of you would prefer a more esteemed manufacturer.)  and I have been asking him for a first generation fifty-foot mechanical reefer for about six years.
 
About four months ago he told me Athearn has this on the table for discussion, along with several other cars as you would expect. They are still mulling this over but maybe, just maybe, this project will get the green light.
 
I save my prayers for more important things but this definitely is high up on my personal wish list. Uncle Irv, wherever you are (opinions vary), please answer my wish.
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: HO 20 car freight car train

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:


We're not only talking quality here, but representative cars.  Unless you are a western US modeler, that's not a choice I would make.

  But if we avoid any regional "bias," we have a generic train which wouldn't have run anywhere. Even bridge-route trains differ inside and outside of coal country.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: HO 20 car freight car train

 

The list seems to have "one of every kind" but most trains had groups of some of the cars listed. And those groups like reefers would be seasonal. And reefers out of states like CA would ship produce 12 months a year.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA


Re: HO 20 car freight car train

Bruce Smith
 

Garth,


Not to beat a dead horse, but if the request is with respect to boxcars, it most certainly is possible and since Andy refers to the N-G model, I'll assume that's what he meant.  Flat cars work that way too. Doing it that way one would fail to account for home road cars being present in higher numbers but basically, we should just name the 20 most common boxcar classes in the US for 1955.


If you add in hoppers, guns, tank cars, and reefers, then yes, I agree with you.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 7:35 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HO 20 car freight car train
 


Friends,

There really is no "generic" location, and while sparking an lively conversation, "generic" has no real relevance. The suggested mix of cars seems to be typical of the upper midwest, and that's fine if it is your interest. It probably gives the best spread of roads nationally.

A train on the West Coast would be quite different, and would be tipped heavily toward whatever major railroad owned the track (or for a shortline was their main connection): ATSF, UP, SP, WP, GN, NP, or MILW.

My interest right now is a Southern-connected Virginia shortline, and the mix would be tipped heavily towards Southern equipment, with boxcars, a hopper and a gondola making up around 1/3 of the train, 1-2 FEGX reefers, representative cars (mostly boxcars) from the B&O, NYC, PRR, SAL, ACL, with the requisite NP boxcar and one boxcar each from the SP and ATSF.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/27/17 4:42 PM, SUVCWORR@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Nah  18 X29, X29B, X29D  one NYC signature car and one B&O M15

Rich Orr 
Tongue firmly in cheek


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Thu, Jul 27, 2017 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HO 20 car freight car train



Andy

Twenty PFE ice reefers, of course. Sheesh. They went everywhere.

;-)

Tim O'Connor




Suppose someone were to ask you for help in selecting 20 available models in HO to do a string of 20 cars for a 1955 generic location in North America with state-of-the-art accuracy important (NO Tyco). With influencing constraints of Gilbert/Nelson combined with what is best in HO freight cars, what 20 models would you suggest for this hypothetical assemblage? Resin, Kitbashed or RTR.

Andy Carlson, with too much time this morning in Ojai, CA





Re: "Accurate 50 Foot Mechanical Reefer"

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Tim O'Connor mentioned, "NO ONE MAKES an accurate 50 foot mechanical reefer in HO scale..."

 

I have a long-time friend in Athearn's product development department (OK, I know some of you would prefer a more esteemed manufacturer.)  and I have been asking him for a first generation fifty-foot mechanical reefer for about six years.

 

About four months ago he told me Athearn has this on the table for discussion, along with several other cars as you would expect. They are still mulling this over but maybe, just maybe, this project will get the green light.

 

I save my prayers for more important things but this definitely is high up on my personal wish list. Uncle Irv, wherever you are (opinions vary), please answer my wish.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA