Date   

Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr


CTC green facia paint

Gary McMills
 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

suvcworr <SUVCWORR@...>
 

To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.  

It was the X29B that was planned.  The problem was the die cutter who had done the original dies for the boxcar passed away.  His son took over the business and his skills to be kind were wanting.  Dick never found an acceptable die cutter who would cut steel dies at an acceptable price.  So the project was in limbo and eventually Dick's health became an issue.  

Rich Orr



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 9/2/17 14:09 (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937  Modified Kits


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

O Fenton Wells
 

Okie dokie 


On Sep 2, 2017, at 10:01 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I am not covering those kits in my presentation.


Bill Welch


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Tim O'Connor
 


Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor




I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


Re: ?URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?????

Tim O'Connor
 

Not to mention the huge potato crop from the Red River valley. And apples from
Washington. And fresh vegetables from southern Minnesota (ya know, where Green Giant
got started).

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....
Hmmm, there's this liquid stuff called "beer" that was and still is made in large quantities in those parts, and was shipped in ice reefers in those days.


Scott Chatfield


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tim O'Connor
 


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

earlyrail
 

Are those milk cans on the platform in the lower right of the image?
Claus Schlund
Downloaded the largest image from the LOC. (4a24766a.tif)
They look like milk cans to me. They have the right shape and size.

Howard Garner


MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

Dave,

I'll take responsibility for that quote, I don't think it was from Bruce.

I suspect the bias from MTY routing on mainlines was hidden in the data analyzed.

But it is very real.

It is very difficult to find a picture of a WB NYCentral boxcar on the PRR's Pittsburgh division. The NYCentral had the second largest boxcar fleet in the country, but on this stretch of what was one of the US's busiest mainlines (over 4,000 WB freight cars a day throughout WWII), the MTY's outnumbered loads by a significant margin, yet just about every western road (including NP) is captured in photos of WB trains. Bottom line is that an MTY NYCentral box car would never be routed west from Harrisburg to Altoona, and if one happened to be unloaded in Altoona, it would be sent EB up the Bald Eagle branch to Newberry Junction.

While loads were only about 25% of WB traffic on the division, I doubt east coast PRR freight agents faced with a flood of MTY Western road cars at the ports would use a NYCentral car for a WB load that wasn't terminating on the western part of the NYCentral. Why do that? Use a western car to get the mileage and stop the per diem, or a PRR car for that load. An MTY NYCentral car? Dump it on the Central at some obscure location in central PA so they have to work it back into their traffic patterns over a secondary line. Nasty...

If the wheel reports for that division could be analyzed in detail, I am confident the data would reveal that traffic pattern - unfortunately such data does not exist (not that any PRR fans have reported.)

I will readily confess that this is a second order effect, but the routing of MTY's can have implications similar to captive service and branch line traffic on freight car distribution, especially for the larger roads that had so many different interchange points such that MTY's did not need to be reverse routed for roads they interchanged with, and in some cases (rule 2-E) even with roads they did not interchange with (e.g. the Rule 2E GM&O/ B&O example I posted earlier.)

Since EB traffic on the PRR's Pittsburgh division was 98% loads, I expect G-N to work very well for EB non-mineral traffic (around 3,000 non-mineral loads per day).

The key, for me, is that modeling WB Pittsburgh Division freights should have consists very distinct for different freight trains, depending on their destination (towards Chicago or towards St. Louis), and a noticeable reduction in Eastern road cars because of MTY routing rather than the more random nature of where loads were destined. I suspect many others modeling Class I mainlines, and some branches of the majors, need to consider the same effect if their location and era had significant MTY traffic. Smaller roads with only a few interchanges and their branches - never mind...

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote :

That is not correct.  My theory applies to all foreign road boxcars w/o regard to lading, WWII years to somewhere in the mid 50’s, mainline routes. 

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 8:01 AM


The G-N model applies to loaded Box Cars….

Regards

Bruce


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

Jared Harper
 

Please guys, don't let Denny starve.  We need him.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

Hey, you guys- Please do not post photos like this. The information overload has delayed my breakfast, not to mention the breakfasts for all others waiting on me.

One could write a book listing all the stories that this photo tells.

Denny.

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:41 am
Subject: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

destorzek@...
 

All between 1986 and about 1992 or so. I was in Dick's shop when they were working on tooling for the AAR car, looking for a source of toolmaking services for what was to become the Accurail line.

The IMWX kit came out a couple years after Intermountain, tooled by Intermountain for one of the original partners.

Not sure about Intermountain's own car, likely shortly after Front Range failed. 

Sorry I can't ger any closer on the dates.

Dennis Storzek


---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Masking Tape Overview

Bill Welch
 

Here is a Youtube video from a fine modeler on his favorite Masking Tape: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbq9fOa4Jwk


Bill Welch



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

I am not covering those kits in my presentation.

Bill Welch


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

O Fenton Wells
 

Don't forget about McKeen and Front Range also

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 9:27 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Bill, there were a whole series of articles on those manufacturers in Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading in the '80's and early 90's. I have some of them.  I believe Thompson and Hendrickson did many of them.  I can help but I'm sure others can provide the ones I don't have.
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:41 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:


The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...



--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

O Fenton Wells
 

Bill, there were a whole series of articles on those manufacturers in Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading in the '80's and early 90's. I have some of them.  I believe Thompson and Hendrickson did many of them.  I can help but I'm sure others can provide the ones I don't have.
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:41 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:


The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, CGW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

anthony wagner
 

When I worked at CNW's 40th Street yard in Chicago in the early 1970s empty PFE reefers were sent to W F Hall Printing Company to load magazines and catalogs going to the west coast. Some of the the names I recall were Playboy, Sears catalog, and Montgomery Ward catalog. I was told by the chief clerk that not only did they get a better rate by using reefers that would have otherwise moved empty but also that the printed material was insulated from changes in humidity during its trip west. I don't remember how many cars were usually loaded but Halls was switched every night. We got a stack of the new issue of Playboy every month from Halls as a bonus for good service. Tony Wagner


On Friday, September 1, 2017 9:12 PM, "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
      To build on what Ted stated, I had presented both at Chicagoland and Cocoa on national reefer movements with info taken from 1956 and 1957 AAR monthly reports. These are the only reports in a series I have found to date, and I model as I have stated prior Sept/Oct 1953, so these are applicable to only some degree.
……….
Quotes taken directly from AAR monthly reports (again found only for 1956-1957)
January 1956 First week of January was heavy for potatoes this season with 4000 loads shipped. No surplus of reefers noted in any loading districts.  Most in protected service.
Feb 20, 1956 “Northern-Belt states (1) heavy and strong use of reefers in protected service continues.”
March 20, 1956 “Northern belt states use of reefers remains strong and because of that, there are car shortages and delayed car placement being reported in the southwest.”
April 20, 1956 “No surplus of cars however all demands are being met.” 1,216 or 5.2% of national fleet out for repair
May 21, 1956 “The heaviest demands for refrigerator cars normally shifts from the Northern-Belt States to the Southeastern, Gulf, and Southwestern states during April and May.”
June 20, 1956 “There has been practically no letup in the demand for refrigerator cars since the first week in January.  Market demand for potatoes became strong during movements of the old potato crops from Maine and Idaho, and continues strong for new potatoes loading from California and Arizona.” (2)
July 20, 1956 Use of refrigerator cars was moderately heavy during June averaging 31,688 cars loaded each week and while heavy, it was below the weekly average of 32,046 car loads for Jan 1 to June 30. Included in the reports were 53,786 carloads of Bananas originating at US ports in the 1st half of this year.
August 21, 1956 Local home-grown produce is reducing the need for shipping from distant areas.  Middle-West, Allegheny, and North Atlantic states have excellent growing conditions and local supplies are plentiful. Normal summer low loading began in July”…. (And this was interesting, as I mentioned in the presentation, if you are modeling late July/August, perhaps some reefers should be sidelined, unless they are in protected service, protecting their commodity against high heat.)
Sept 20, 1956, Heaviest car loading period of the year - except for reefers.
October 25, 1956 Idaho loading of potatoes, apples, and onions greater than 1200 carloads per week, Red River Valley (MN/ND border) potatoes are at 1000 carloads a week and will be steady at that rate for some time. Most of Maine potatoes are being stored, some movement in Sept., however takes off in December lasting to April.
December 20, 1956 Potato loading greater than 1500 per week in Maine, peaked at 1200 per week in Idaho and the Red River Valley. Northern states put demands on protected service and perishables other than fresh fruit and vegetables.
February 20, 1957 Frozen food loading, including fruits and berries, vegetables, dressed poultry, etc. amounted to 25,116 carloads the first three quarters of 1956, an increase of 8.2% over same time of 1955.  A 13.4% increase is forecast for 1957. Since middle of January, loading requirements show increasing need in fresh fruit and vegetable shipping areas. Florida, Red River Valley, Maine, California, and Idaho needs will rise for the next eight weeks.
March 20, 1957, Protected service demands continue with moderately heavy carloading estimated for Florida and Arizona during late March. Loading in Florida est. to be 3,500/week by April. California and Arizona will rise to 3,900.  Stored potatoes estimated to move from Maine, Idaho, and Red River valley in March and April, same time FL, TX, and AZ will see heaviest loading.
    Therefore, all refrigerators will be in service at that time. (No reefers out for servicing)
*Northern Belt states defined as states north of Mason-Dixie Line.
    Other reefer uses were use of reefers Ted listed.  Magazines, plants, flowers, cigarettes, and even tires, and matches used reefers for shipment. Freight forwarders took advantage of the return empty rates on refrigerators and used these cars. Freight moved in refrigerator cars via protected service fall to spring in the northern US and Canada and must filtered south. 
I thought I had uploaded a list of commodities that use protected service (for protection against both heat and cold) however found it empty and so reloaded it. Here:
Such a list also exists in the PFE book.
My conclusion stated at the end of the presentation were: There are many, many possibilities to use refrigerator cars beyond use only in perishable commodity use. Doing such limits your realistic application of your rolling stock
………………
(1) Northern Belt states defined as north of the Mason-Dixie line.
(2) Of potatoes, and their seemingly year round movement. From research there seems to be early,(also called new), mid and late season potatoes. Early and new like the Kern Valley, CA potatoes seem to be shipped directly to market with mid-season stored somewhat and late season OK to be stored for many months, then shipped. If we have a horticulturalist or potato grower on this list, I would be happy to hear more, and if it could be stated with respect to this list’s time frame, all the better.  
Reason for the interest in potatoes is that this seems to be the one perishable commodity that moves year round. Most of us on this list have eaten potatoes several times this week already and so I would petition that it makes that the one possible most likely reefer load we all could use on our railroad.
                                                                                                              Jim Dick – St. Paul
To those that would ask about us that present if we could upload our PowerPoint presentations, I would be happy to except like most presenters, have copyrighted images use granted for educational display at said conventions only - in our presentations. I do and to cut those out I feel leaves jumps in the rhythm of the presentation.     



Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Re: Announcement from Yarmouth Model Works

Pierre Oliver
 

We have plans for at least 4 more ACF built cars after the ones shown.
They point is to showoff the ACF proprietary roof and end we had created.
The Wabash 12 panel car is still in production, so you haven't "missed" anything yet

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 9/01/17 8:15 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:

�


Will you be doing any more ACF "dimple end" box cars? I missed
the Wabash car you did ... Also any plans on doing any cars with
the ACF "carbuilder roof"?

Tim O'Connor

>Please see the blog;
>
>http://elgincarshops.blogspot.ca/2017/09/well-heres-plan.html
>
>Pierre Oliver


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