Date   

Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor



IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Andy Carlson
 

Often I am reminded of my late, dear friend, Terry Wegmann. As has been told before, Intermountain rushed their PFE R-40-23 steel ice bunker reefer to market to beat out Jerry Porter's IMWX R-40-23. since Jerry was a former co-founder of Intermountain, I believe there was bad blood involved in IMRC's decision. As time has shown, the IMRC R-40-23 Reefer has become the 2nd best all-time seller in the IMRC line (beaten only by the in-the-future fantasy cylindrical Canadian covered hopper).

Jerry was slow in tooling his R-40-23. He enlisted the help of Terry to tool the improved Dreadnaught end, in which Terry did an incredible job using old school large, hand made pattern making and reduction cutting using a 3-D pantograph. With the trend of almost everything being CNC tooled, it is hard to beat Terry's style of tool making. Another example of choice 3-D pantographing parts, i offer the 1980s tooled Athearn plastic EMD HO Blomberg side frame, which many consider the best version up to the present. The master pattern for it was made in a 4:1 oversize acrylic piece.

Terry's end would not be used, as Jerry Porter gave up after the IMRC release. Terry's end survives, though, asTerry did this same end for an 'S' scale plastic R-40-23 reefer, which really showcases the fine proportions of Terry's end. Terry did fill the tooled cavity with epoxy to get a casting. I was lent that casting to make a RTV mold. From that, I made a 4/4 IDE piece which I have not yet poured a mold.

I have shared this story of the IMWX Reefer several years ago. Just being a little nostalgic.......
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

Tony is correct. The only things I used were the body, doors, and underframe/floor assembly. Most of mine got the really nice 7 and 8-rung ladders introduced by Detail Associated in brown styrene. I built several very satisfying models and then horded many when it was announced the details would be molded on.

Bill Welch


Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Do you know or can you find out the builder?  There are resources but all the facts you can provide about who built it and when would go far to helping you out.

 

Schuyler

 

Hello group,

Jason Kliewer wrote:

Would anyone here know of a resource that would show the underframe for a Rock Island 50' outside braced auto box car like the one at IRM #264070?

I should have taken pictures when I was there but we only had about an hour by the time we got there.


Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Jason Kliewer
 

Hello group,


Would anyone here know of a resource that would show the underframe for a Rock Island 50' outside braced auto box car like the one at IRM #264070?


I should have taken pictures when I was there but we only had about an hour by the time we got there.



Thanks,


Jason KLiewer

Colorado Springs, CO


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tony Thompson
 

Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: CTC green facia paint

Marty McGuirk
 

Devoe  Upland Green. 

Marty McGuirk
Manassas,Va.

On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:53 PM, santafe@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr


CTC green facia paint

Gary McMills
 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

suvcworr <SUVCWORR@...>
 

To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.  

It was the X29B that was planned.  The problem was the die cutter who had done the original dies for the boxcar passed away.  His son took over the business and his skills to be kind were wanting.  Dick never found an acceptable die cutter who would cut steel dies at an acceptable price.  So the project was in limbo and eventually Dick's health became an issue.  

Rich Orr



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 9/2/17 14:09 (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937  Modified Kits


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

O Fenton Wells
 

Okie dokie 


On Sep 2, 2017, at 10:01 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I am not covering those kits in my presentation.


Bill Welch


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Tim O'Connor
 


Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor




I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


Re: ?URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?????

Tim O'Connor
 

Not to mention the huge potato crop from the Red River valley. And apples from
Washington. And fresh vegetables from southern Minnesota (ya know, where Green Giant
got started).

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....
Hmmm, there's this liquid stuff called "beer" that was and still is made in large quantities in those parts, and was shipped in ice reefers in those days.


Scott Chatfield


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tim O'Connor
 


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

earlyrail
 

Are those milk cans on the platform in the lower right of the image?
Claus Schlund
Downloaded the largest image from the LOC. (4a24766a.tif)
They look like milk cans to me. They have the right shape and size.

Howard Garner


MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

Dave,

I'll take responsibility for that quote, I don't think it was from Bruce.

I suspect the bias from MTY routing on mainlines was hidden in the data analyzed.

But it is very real.

It is very difficult to find a picture of a WB NYCentral boxcar on the PRR's Pittsburgh division. The NYCentral had the second largest boxcar fleet in the country, but on this stretch of what was one of the US's busiest mainlines (over 4,000 WB freight cars a day throughout WWII), the MTY's outnumbered loads by a significant margin, yet just about every western road (including NP) is captured in photos of WB trains. Bottom line is that an MTY NYCentral box car would never be routed west from Harrisburg to Altoona, and if one happened to be unloaded in Altoona, it would be sent EB up the Bald Eagle branch to Newberry Junction.

While loads were only about 25% of WB traffic on the division, I doubt east coast PRR freight agents faced with a flood of MTY Western road cars at the ports would use a NYCentral car for a WB load that wasn't terminating on the western part of the NYCentral. Why do that? Use a western car to get the mileage and stop the per diem, or a PRR car for that load. An MTY NYCentral car? Dump it on the Central at some obscure location in central PA so they have to work it back into their traffic patterns over a secondary line. Nasty...

If the wheel reports for that division could be analyzed in detail, I am confident the data would reveal that traffic pattern - unfortunately such data does not exist (not that any PRR fans have reported.)

I will readily confess that this is a second order effect, but the routing of MTY's can have implications similar to captive service and branch line traffic on freight car distribution, especially for the larger roads that had so many different interchange points such that MTY's did not need to be reverse routed for roads they interchanged with, and in some cases (rule 2-E) even with roads they did not interchange with (e.g. the Rule 2E GM&O/ B&O example I posted earlier.)

Since EB traffic on the PRR's Pittsburgh division was 98% loads, I expect G-N to work very well for EB non-mineral traffic (around 3,000 non-mineral loads per day).

The key, for me, is that modeling WB Pittsburgh Division freights should have consists very distinct for different freight trains, depending on their destination (towards Chicago or towards St. Louis), and a noticeable reduction in Eastern road cars because of MTY routing rather than the more random nature of where loads were destined. I suspect many others modeling Class I mainlines, and some branches of the majors, need to consider the same effect if their location and era had significant MTY traffic. Smaller roads with only a few interchanges and their branches - never mind...

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote :

That is not correct.  My theory applies to all foreign road boxcars w/o regard to lading, WWII years to somewhere in the mid 50’s, mainline routes. 

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 8:01 AM


The G-N model applies to loaded Box Cars….

Regards

Bruce


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

Jared Harper
 

Please guys, don't let Denny starve.  We need him.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
 

Hey, you guys- Please do not post photos like this. The information overload has delayed my breakfast, not to mention the breakfasts for all others waiting on me.

One could write a book listing all the stories that this photo tells.

Denny.

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:41 am
Subject: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Dennis Storzek
 

All between 1986 and about 1992 or so. I was in Dick's shop when they were working on tooling for the AAR car, looking for a source of toolmaking services for what was to become the Accurail line.

The IMWX kit came out a couple years after Intermountain, tooled by Intermountain for one of the original partners.

Not sure about Intermountain's own car, likely shortly after Front Range failed. 

Sorry I can't ger any closer on the dates.

Dennis Storzek


---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch

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