Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
devansprr
John,
Thank-you for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP lines west to LA.) Must have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot. (Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard, and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's challenge... Dave Evans
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Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Richard Townsend
Didn't at least some of the plug door versions get released. I think I have two different plug door CB&T SFRD reefers in my stash.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message----- From: SUVCWORR@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits Tim,
When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue. To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high. I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not. I do know they were not assembled.
Rich Orr
-----Original Message----- From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> To: STMFC <STMFC@...> Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits Rich I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine. It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers! Tim O'Connor As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.
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Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Bill Welch
I poured over the articles in RMJ by Ed Hawkins and Richard Hendrickson deciding which cars to model with these kits. I lowered one six-inches to do a Green & Orange EJ&E car with scratch built Superior doors using Walthers decals. Other cars I modeled that I can remember tonight are an ITC w/two level Dalmans; P&WV (black) and Southern w/8-foot doors, and a UP DD auto car.
One major frustration was that because of the modular tooling to achieve the mix of roofs, sides, and ends, there was often poor alignment between ends and sides or roof and ends. But despite this, the oversize rivets, and throwing away detail sprues, when the models were finished they had a very pleasing appearance. It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications. Bill Welch
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Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?
al_brown03
I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four? What kind of citrus, and originating where? Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
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Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
SUVCWORR@...
Tim, When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue. To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high. I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not. I do know they were not assembled. Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits Rich I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine. It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers! Tim O'Connor As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.
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Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
SUVCWORR@...
Tony, I was thinking of pre-production kits which I obtained and forgot about the in=house sprue of parts which I agree was bad. Somewhere I have a stash of about 100 bodies without the cast on ladders and grabs. They were misprinted letteriing free for the taking. No floors or doors just bodies. Rich Orr
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From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits Rich Orr wrote:
Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw. A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?
The MSTL served a number of canneries, ie Marshall Canning of Western Grocer. Most were sweet corn canners, but pumpkin, peas, green beans, and like were also canned. A short season for processing, ie late July through Sept, but a skeleton staff kept on hand year round to label and ship cans as orders came in. Yes canned corn was kept on site in a warehouse ready to ship as needed. The cans of corn were stored unlabeled, when an order arrived usually the labels also arrived from the buyer. Cans were then unboxed, labeled, reboxed in new boxes and shipped. Reefers would have been used during winter months. The MSTL purchased 50’ insulated boxcars in the late 50’s for this traffic. But prior to that purchase, reefers could/would be used.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
John Barry
Dave, Barstow was more than a Division Point Yard even during the Depression and WWII. No, it wasn't the major classification yard that it became with the hump, but a lot of trains made up and broke down there. At the time of Delano's 1943 photograph it belonged to the Arizona Division and was the Division Yard between the Mojave and Needles districts. The Los Angeles Division's First District over Cajon began there and terminated in San Bernardino. It was the point that traffic bound for LA points on Santa Fe trackage was interchanged from the UP (LA&SL) which had come on to Santa Fe tracks at Dagget, 8 miles east. As I understand it, it was mostly block swapping, where traffic to/from the UP was cut into and out of trains. The Santa Fe trains for the Valley Division ran in reverse block order on the LA First District and any blocks for the east were cut off and any blocks for NorCal dropped by West bounds before going over Cajon were added. An Arizona Division engine took the place of the LA Div way car as an AZ Div way car went on the former head end where the LA Div engine had cut off. Dwell times for LA to SF manifest freights like the NCX and EFX were on the order of two hours per System Circular 231, Freight Train Schedules, Nov 42 - May 44. When the swap to/from connecting trains was complete, the NCX would pull westbound out of Barstow onto the Mojave District in proper block order for the Valley Division. Barstow was also the location for significant passenger train switching where the Scout, California Limited, and Grand Canyon would set out and pick up through cars, including express STMFC, for the northern sections of those trains. The passenger depot was adjacent to CASA DEL DESIERTO which was active during the war. John Barry ATSF North Bay Lines Golden Gates & Fast Freights Lovettsville, VA 707-490-9696 PO Box 44736 Washington, DC 20026-4736
From: "devans1@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model Tim, Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard. I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get. The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense. But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of ! Barstow. So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.) This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW. Dave Evans ---In STMFC@..., wrote :
Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist. Tim O'Connor
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Re: CTC green facia paint
Gary McMills
Thanks Marty best, Gary McMills
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Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?
Ray Breyer
>>Dennis Storzek wrote: >>I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it.... ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925 ROAD CITRUS FRESH FRUIT POTATOES FRESH VEG C&NW 29 1948 8744 4327 CMO 4 418 2513 475 CGW 12 168 139 288 MILW 66 1422 2794 3834 GB&W 0 41 2310 512 CB&Q 68 2813 4391 1194 C&A 7 1710 35 88 RI 51 1974 1878 1406 C&EI 0 1184 176 365 CI&L 0 225 12 280 CCC&StL 58 716 125 901 IC 160 31911 1277 7255 SOO 26 923 9032 740 More than likely, anyone who thinks that Grangers didn't produce reefer loads is modeling the wrong year. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
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Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.
Ed Hawkins
On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:58 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I offer the following that may help. RI 264000-264149 single-sheathed, 50’-6” auto cars were built ca. 4-30 by the Standard Steel Car Co. and later modified by the railroad in 1946 to increase the inside height from 10’ to 10’-6”. Suggest contacting Ted Anderson (tedander@...) at the Pullman Library part of the Illinois Railway Museum, as they have some SSC drawings from the 1930 time period. Regards, Ed Hawkins
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Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
devansprr
Tim,
Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard. I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get. The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense. But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of Barstow. So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.) This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW. Dave Evans ---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote : Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist. Tim O'Connor
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IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Andy Carlson
Often I am reminded of my late, dear friend, Terry Wegmann. As has been told before, Intermountain rushed their PFE R-40-23 steel ice bunker reefer to market to beat out Jerry Porter's IMWX R-40-23. since Jerry was a former co-founder of Intermountain, I believe there was bad blood involved in IMRC's decision. As time has shown, the IMRC R-40-23 Reefer has become the 2nd best all-time seller in the IMRC line (beaten only by the in-the-future fantasy cylindrical Canadian covered hopper). Jerry was slow in tooling his R-40-23. He enlisted the help of Terry to tool the improved Dreadnaught end, in which Terry did an incredible job using old school large, hand made pattern making and reduction cutting using a 3-D pantograph. With the trend of almost everything being CNC tooled, it is hard to beat Terry's style of tool making. Another example of choice 3-D pantographing parts, i offer the 1980s tooled Athearn plastic EMD HO Blomberg side frame, which many consider the best version up to the present. The master pattern for it was made in a 4:1 oversize acrylic piece. Terry's end would not be used, as Jerry Porter gave up after the IMRC release. Terry's end survives, though, asTerry did this same end for an 'S' scale plastic R-40-23 reefer, which really showcases the fine proportions of Terry's end. Terry did fill the tooled cavity with epoxy to get a casting. I was lent that casting to make a RTV mold. From that, I made a 4/4 IDE piece which I have not yet poured a mold. I have shared this story of the IMWX Reefer several years ago. Just being a little nostalgic....... -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
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Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Bill Welch
Tony is correct. The only things I used were the body, doors, and underframe/floor assembly. Most of mine got the really nice 7 and 8-rung ladders introduced by Detail Associated in brown styrene. I built several very satisfying models and then horded many when it was announced the details would be molded on.
Bill Welch
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Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.
Schuyler Larrabee
Do you know or can you find out the builder? There are resources but all the facts you can provide about who built it and when would go far to helping you out.
Schuyler
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Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.
Jason Kliewer
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Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Tony Thompson
Rich Orr wrote:
Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw. A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: CTC green facia paint
Marty McGuirk
Devoe Upland Green. Marty McGuirk Manassas,Va.
On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:53 PM, santafe@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits
Rich
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine. It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers! Tim O'Connor
As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.
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CTC green facia paint
Gary McMills
thanks, Gary McMills
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