Date   

Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

John,

Thank-you for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP lines west to LA.)

Must have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot. (Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard, and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's challenge...

Dave Evans


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Richard Townsend
 

Didn't at least some of the plug door versions get released. I think I have two different plug door CB&T SFRD reefers in my stash.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

 
Tim,

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

I poured over the articles in RMJ by Ed Hawkins and Richard Hendrickson deciding which cars to model with these kits. I lowered one six-inches to do a Green & Orange EJ&E car with scratch built Superior doors using Walthers decals. Other cars I modeled that I can remember tonight are an ITC w/two level Dalmans; P&WV (black) and Southern w/8-foot doors, and a UP DD auto car.

One major frustration was that because of the modular tooling to achieve the mix of roofs, sides, and ends, there was often poor alignment between ends and sides or roof and ends. But despite this, the oversize rivets, and throwing away detail sprues, when the models were finished they had a very pleasing appearance.

It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

al_brown03
 

I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four? What kind of citrus, and originating where?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tim,

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tony,

I was thinking of pre-production kits which I obtained and forgot about the in=house sprue of parts which I agree was bad. Somewhere I have a stash of about 100 bodies without the cast on ladders and grabs.  They were misprinted letteriing free for the taking.  No floors or doors just bodies.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Douglas Harding
 

The MSTL served a number of canneries, ie Marshall Canning of Western Grocer. Most were sweet corn canners, but pumpkin, peas, green beans, and like were also canned. A short season for processing, ie late July through Sept, but a skeleton staff kept on hand year round to label and ship cans as orders came in. Yes canned corn was kept on site in a warehouse ready to ship as needed. The cans of corn were stored unlabeled, when an order arrived usually the labels also arrived from the buyer. Cans were then unboxed, labeled, reboxed in new boxes and shipped. Reefers would have been used during winter months. The MSTL purchased 50’ insulated boxcars in the late 50’s for this traffic. But prior to that purchase, reefers could/would be used.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

John Barry
 

Dave,

Barstow was more than a Division Point Yard even during the Depression and WWII.  No, it wasn't the major classification yard that it became with the hump, but a lot of trains made up and broke down there.  At the time of Delano's 1943 photograph it belonged to the Arizona Division and was the Division Yard between the Mojave and Needles districts.  The Los Angeles Division's First District over Cajon began there and terminated in San Bernardino.  It was the point that traffic bound for LA points on Santa Fe trackage was interchanged from the UP (LA&SL) which had come on to Santa Fe tracks at Dagget, 8 miles east.  As I understand it, it was mostly block swapping, where traffic to/from the UP was cut into and out of trains.

The Santa Fe trains for the Valley Division ran in reverse block order on the LA First District and any blocks for the east were cut off and any blocks for NorCal dropped by West bounds before going over Cajon were added.  An Arizona Division engine took the place of the LA Div way car as an AZ Div way car went on the former head end where the LA Div engine had cut off.  Dwell times for LA to SF manifest freights like the NCX and EFX were on the order of two hours per System Circular 231, Freight Train Schedules, Nov 42 - May 44.  When the swap to/from connecting trains was complete, the NCX would pull westbound out of Barstow onto the Mojave District in proper block order for the Valley Division.  

Barstow was also the location for significant passenger train switching where the Scout, California Limited, and Grand Canyon would set out and pick up through cars, including express STMFC, for the northern sections of those trains.  The passenger depot was adjacent to CASA DEL DESIERTO which was active during the war.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "devans1@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 
Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of ! Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor





Re: CTC green facia paint

Gary McMills
 

Thanks Marty

best,

Gary McMills 



----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
Sat, 2 Sep 2017 16:05:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: [STMFC] CTC green facia paint


 

Devoe  Upland Green. 

Marty McGuirk
Manassas,Va.

On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:53 PM, santafe@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>Dennis Storzek wrote:


>>I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....


ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925
ROAD    CITRUS    FRESH FRUIT    POTATOES    FRESH VEG
C&NW        29                 1948                 8744                  4327
CMO             4                  418                   2513                   475
CGW           12                 168                    139                     288
MILW            66               1422                   2794                  3834
GB&W          0                    41                    2310                   512
CB&Q          68                2813                  4391                  1194
C&A              7                 1710                    35                       88
RI                  51                1974                   1878                 1406
C&EI             0                  1184                    176                   365
CI&L              0                  225                      12                     280
CCC&StL    58                  716                    125                    901
IC                160               31911                  1277                 7255
SOO             26                 923                     9032                  740      


More than likely, anyone who thinks that Grangers didn't produce reefer loads is modeling the wrong year.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL                                   


Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Ed Hawkins
 


On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:58 PM, 'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Do you know or can you find out the builder?  There are resources but all the facts you can provide about who built it and when would go far to helping you out.

 

Schuyler

 

Hello group,

Jason Kliewer wrote:

Would anyone here know of a resource that would show the underframe for a Rock Island 50' outside braced auto box car like the one at IRM #264070?

I should have taken pictures when I was there but we only had about an hour by the time we got there.

Jason,
I don’t know the answer to your question, but I offer the following that may help. RI 264000-264149 single-sheathed, 50’-6” auto cars were built ca. 4-30 by the Standard Steel Car Co. and later modified by the railroad in 1946 to increase the inside height from 10’ to 10’-6”.

Suggest contacting Ted Anderson (tedander@...) at the Pullman Library part of the Illinois Railway Museum, as they have some SSC drawings from the 1930 time period.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor



IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Andy Carlson
 

Often I am reminded of my late, dear friend, Terry Wegmann. As has been told before, Intermountain rushed their PFE R-40-23 steel ice bunker reefer to market to beat out Jerry Porter's IMWX R-40-23. since Jerry was a former co-founder of Intermountain, I believe there was bad blood involved in IMRC's decision. As time has shown, the IMRC R-40-23 Reefer has become the 2nd best all-time seller in the IMRC line (beaten only by the in-the-future fantasy cylindrical Canadian covered hopper).

Jerry was slow in tooling his R-40-23. He enlisted the help of Terry to tool the improved Dreadnaught end, in which Terry did an incredible job using old school large, hand made pattern making and reduction cutting using a 3-D pantograph. With the trend of almost everything being CNC tooled, it is hard to beat Terry's style of tool making. Another example of choice 3-D pantographing parts, i offer the 1980s tooled Athearn plastic EMD HO Blomberg side frame, which many consider the best version up to the present. The master pattern for it was made in a 4:1 oversize acrylic piece.

Terry's end would not be used, as Jerry Porter gave up after the IMRC release. Terry's end survives, though, asTerry did this same end for an 'S' scale plastic R-40-23 reefer, which really showcases the fine proportions of Terry's end. Terry did fill the tooled cavity with epoxy to get a casting. I was lent that casting to make a RTV mold. From that, I made a 4/4 IDE piece which I have not yet poured a mold.

I have shared this story of the IMWX Reefer several years ago. Just being a little nostalgic.......
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

Tony is correct. The only things I used were the body, doors, and underframe/floor assembly. Most of mine got the really nice 7 and 8-rung ladders introduced by Detail Associated in brown styrene. I built several very satisfying models and then horded many when it was announced the details would be molded on.

Bill Welch


Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Do you know or can you find out the builder?  There are resources but all the facts you can provide about who built it and when would go far to helping you out.

 

Schuyler

 

Hello group,

Jason Kliewer wrote:

Would anyone here know of a resource that would show the underframe for a Rock Island 50' outside braced auto box car like the one at IRM #264070?

I should have taken pictures when I was there but we only had about an hour by the time we got there.


Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Jason Kliewer
 

Hello group,


Would anyone here know of a resource that would show the underframe for a Rock Island 50' outside braced auto box car like the one at IRM #264070?


I should have taken pictures when I was there but we only had about an hour by the time we got there.



Thanks,


Jason KLiewer

Colorado Springs, CO


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tony Thompson
 

Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: CTC green facia paint

Marty McGuirk
 

Devoe  Upland Green. 

Marty McGuirk
Manassas,Va.

On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:53 PM, santafe@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr


CTC green facia paint

Gary McMills
 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills

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