Date   

Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

np328
 

Here is found some citrus Al, that covers those roads.
 
However I'll go with Ray's statement about fruit, I am one of the younger guys here and I can recall as a child my parents admonishing us kids things like "eat these strawberries/cantaloupe/watermelon now while they're here". (in season)  
No flown in fruit from Chile back then, none that I recall.
Course the inside of a strawberry was red then not white. And actually had flavor.

                                                                                        Jim Dick - St. Paul


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Jack Mullen
 

Dave Nelson said:
Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service. "

Right you are, but this 'X for explosives'  idea is one of those railfan myths that just won't die.

The cars in question are CNW 15800-15998, even nos.  They're described in the ORER, 1940s vintage, as "Box, Trap". They were used in essentially captive service between C&NW freight houses.  There's a photo of some being switched at the C&NW freight house under the Merchandise Mart,  not the sort of place you'd want carloads of high explosive.

Jack Mullen
 


Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Jason Kliewer
 

Thank you for the reply Ed.  I was actually just about to contact the Pullman Library on another matter so I'll add this inquiry.

To maybe be more specific, I'm looking at the cars that went to the DCI for tire loading.  The Morning Sun color guide says they probably come from RI series 262450-262799.  I assume these will be similar cars to what you mentioned.  I know some series had end doors and others didn't.


Thanks again,

Jason


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Vera Mills
 

Hello,

Referring to intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain 1937 Modified Kits, a survey of my C&BT Shops kits shows that my first box car arrived on 20 September 1990 with the first one having cast-on ladders arriving on 31 March 1999.  Overlapping did not occur.

My IMWX kits arrived on 21 June 2001 and the first Intermountain 1937 box cars arrived on 26 August 1998.  Both were late-comers, in the context of this discussion, to my railway.

With Santa Fe reefers, the first C&BT Shops one arrived on 22 February 1993 with the kits with grey ladders arriving 1 November 2001.  However, the latter were second hand which could indicate that the hinges were "lost".  Subsequently, the first reefer with grey ladders and door hinges arrived on 20 August 2008 and reefers with black ladders and door hinges arrived on 9 March 20123.  Once again, overlapping did not occur.  Not sure about wire grabs.

The first Intermountain Santa Fe reefers arrived via Long's on 5 March 1996.

I believe that the IMWX, and Intermountain 40' box cars were 1937 modified and C&BT Shops box cars were 1944.

Thank you for the opportunity to help establish Intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain kits as I needed to do a spread-sheet on the ladders and hinges for the C&BT Shops reefers..

Regards,

Glen Mills


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>OH BOY!!  I get to say it (again): All those tens of thousands of IC reefers were hauling bananas to Chicago. 
>>Growing up on the north side there were bananas in the house all eyar long.
>>Dave Nelson


The stats I cited are from 1925 Dave, not 1955: there was a far larger mix of regional produce variation back in the good old days of railroading. That's why the IC had 4500 reefers, and also1800 ventilated boxcars. That's also why you see pre-Depression era photos of IC reefers in Ft. Dodge, LaSalle, and Dodgeville.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL








Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave Nelson
 

Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 3:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Dave Nelson
 

OH BOY!! I get to say it (again): All those tens of thousands of IC reefers were hauling bananas to Chicago. Growing up on the north side there were bananas in the house all eyar long.



Dave Nelson



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 4:42 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?








Dennis Storzek wrote:


I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....




ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925

ROAD CITRUS FRESH FRUIT POTATOES FRESH VEG
C&NW 29 1948 8744 4327
CMO 4 418 2513 475
CGW 12 168 139 288
MILW 66 1422 2794 3834
GB&W 0 41 2310 512
CB&Q 68 2813 4391 1194
C&A 7 1710 35 88
RI &n! bsp; 51 1974 1878 1406
C&EI 0 1184 176 365
CI&L 0 225 12 280
CCC&StL 58 716 125 901
IC 160 31911 1277 7255
SOO 26 923 9032 740





More than likely, anyone who thinks that Grangers didn't produce reefer loads is modeling the wrong year.



Ray Breyer

Elgin, IL


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave Nelson
 

From the initial question I specifically excluded home road cars from the distribution model.  Tim concurred.  Which is to say the photo of an ATSF yard showing gobs of ATSH boxcars is pretty irrelevant to the theory on the distribution of foreign road boxcars.

 

What I have said on more recent occasions about home road empties is that I thought a logical argument could be made for large numbers of home road boxcars to be set aside in protective service out of the way places where inbound loads were greatly exceeded by outbounds.  Small towns for lumber mills comes to mind.  OTOH, very large urban areas, such as Los Angeles, probably had many, many inbound boxcars taking loads to local manufacturing, warehouse, and consumption centers, potentially leaving enough empties each day that there would be less need for local railroads to hold all that many home road cars in protective service. 

 

AFAIK there are no large number of samples from small town America that could be used to tabulate a large enough sample to draw a firm conclusion as to whose cars carried outbound loads.  I think common sense rules here but this is clearly one of those matters where YMMV.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model



Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Bruce Smith
 

Dave,


The N-G model does not apply to home road cars, or to individual trains.  No-one associated with it has ever claimed it did.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of devans1@... [STMFC] Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 1:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
 


Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans 


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four?
>>What kind of citrus, and originating where?
>>Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


I threw that statistic in to throw people for a loop, as I'm sure that the carloads were generated from large wholesale gathering points and resold (although there is some lemon production in Southern IL).
But anything's possible. There were 35 acres of greenhouses dedicated to winter cucumber production around Cleveland before WWI, so there could have been something similar for fruit.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

John,

Thank-you for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP lines west to LA.)

Must have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot. (Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard, and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's challenge...

Dave Evans


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Richard Townsend
 

Didn't at least some of the plug door versions get released. I think I have two different plug door CB&T SFRD reefers in my stash.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

 
Tim,

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

I poured over the articles in RMJ by Ed Hawkins and Richard Hendrickson deciding which cars to model with these kits. I lowered one six-inches to do a Green & Orange EJ&E car with scratch built Superior doors using Walthers decals. Other cars I modeled that I can remember tonight are an ITC w/two level Dalmans; P&WV (black) and Southern w/8-foot doors, and a UP DD auto car.

One major frustration was that because of the modular tooling to achieve the mix of roofs, sides, and ends, there was often poor alignment between ends and sides or roof and ends. But despite this, the oversize rivets, and throwing away detail sprues, when the models were finished they had a very pleasing appearance.

It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

al_brown03
 

I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four? What kind of citrus, and originating where?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tim,

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tony,

I was thinking of pre-production kits which I obtained and forgot about the in=house sprue of parts which I agree was bad. Somewhere I have a stash of about 100 bodies without the cast on ladders and grabs.  They were misprinted letteriing free for the taking.  No floors or doors just bodies.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Douglas Harding
 

The MSTL served a number of canneries, ie Marshall Canning of Western Grocer. Most were sweet corn canners, but pumpkin, peas, green beans, and like were also canned. A short season for processing, ie late July through Sept, but a skeleton staff kept on hand year round to label and ship cans as orders came in. Yes canned corn was kept on site in a warehouse ready to ship as needed. The cans of corn were stored unlabeled, when an order arrived usually the labels also arrived from the buyer. Cans were then unboxed, labeled, reboxed in new boxes and shipped. Reefers would have been used during winter months. The MSTL purchased 50’ insulated boxcars in the late 50’s for this traffic. But prior to that purchase, reefers could/would be used.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

John Barry
 

Dave,

Barstow was more than a Division Point Yard even during the Depression and WWII.  No, it wasn't the major classification yard that it became with the hump, but a lot of trains made up and broke down there.  At the time of Delano's 1943 photograph it belonged to the Arizona Division and was the Division Yard between the Mojave and Needles districts.  The Los Angeles Division's First District over Cajon began there and terminated in San Bernardino.  It was the point that traffic bound for LA points on Santa Fe trackage was interchanged from the UP (LA&SL) which had come on to Santa Fe tracks at Dagget, 8 miles east.  As I understand it, it was mostly block swapping, where traffic to/from the UP was cut into and out of trains.

The Santa Fe trains for the Valley Division ran in reverse block order on the LA First District and any blocks for the east were cut off and any blocks for NorCal dropped by West bounds before going over Cajon were added.  An Arizona Division engine took the place of the LA Div way car as an AZ Div way car went on the former head end where the LA Div engine had cut off.  Dwell times for LA to SF manifest freights like the NCX and EFX were on the order of two hours per System Circular 231, Freight Train Schedules, Nov 42 - May 44.  When the swap to/from connecting trains was complete, the NCX would pull westbound out of Barstow onto the Mojave District in proper block order for the Valley Division.  

Barstow was also the location for significant passenger train switching where the Scout, California Limited, and Grand Canyon would set out and pick up through cars, including express STMFC, for the northern sections of those trains.  The passenger depot was adjacent to CASA DEL DESIERTO which was active during the war.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "devans1@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 
Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of ! Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor





Re: CTC green facia paint

Gary McMills
 

Thanks Marty

best,

Gary McMills 



----- Original Message -----
From:
STMFC@...

To:

Cc:

Sent:
Sat, 2 Sep 2017 16:05:13 -0400
Subject:
Re: [STMFC] CTC green facia paint


 

Devoe  Upland Green. 

Marty McGuirk
Manassas,Va.

On Sep 2, 2017, at 3:53 PM, santafe@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 




Does anyone recall the name of the Sherwin Williams color for the CTC green paint?

thanks,

Gary McMills


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>Dennis Storzek wrote:


>>I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....


ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925
ROAD    CITRUS    FRESH FRUIT    POTATOES    FRESH VEG
C&NW        29                 1948                 8744                  4327
CMO             4                  418                   2513                   475
CGW           12                 168                    139                     288
MILW            66               1422                   2794                  3834
GB&W          0                    41                    2310                   512
CB&Q          68                2813                  4391                  1194
C&A              7                 1710                    35                       88
RI                  51                1974                   1878                 1406
C&EI             0                  1184                    176                   365
CI&L              0                  225                      12                     280
CCC&StL    58                  716                    125                    901
IC                160               31911                  1277                 7255
SOO             26                 923                     9032                  740      


More than likely, anyone who thinks that Grangers didn't produce reefer loads is modeling the wrong year.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL