Date   

Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Dennis Storzek
 

Slow at answering because we're watching my two year old grandson this weekend... and it's going to be a looooong weekend. :-)

This discussion has wandered away from Bill's original question; did URTX run the MILW, SOO, CGW and MSt.&L cars as a pool. In my reply I removed the MILW from consideration because it was a transcon, compared to the rest that were essentially regionals.

Ray's table reproduced here:
ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925
ROAD    CITRUS    FRESH FRUIT    POTATOES    FRESH VEG
C&NW        29                 1948                 8744                  4327
CMO             4                  418                   2513                   475
CGW           12                 168                    139                     288
MILW            66               1422                   2794                  3834
GB&W          0                    41                    2310                   512
CB&Q          68                2813                  4391                  1194
C&A              7                 1710                    35                       88
RI                  51                1974                   1878                 1406
C&EI             0                  1184                    176                   365
CI&L              0                  225                      12                     280
CCC&StL    58                  716                    125                    901
IC                160               31911                  1277                 7255
SOO             26                 923                     9032                  740 

Ray's numbers kind of prove my point. The Louie isn't even listed. The CGW originated about 600 reefer loads in the 1925 sample. That's less than two a day. If the roads could get ten "turns" out of each car in a year, they could cover their needs by leasing 50-60 cars.

As I predicted, the bulk of the Soo's reefer loadings were potatoes, a crop that is stored where it is grown and ships throughout the year. The Soo's combined citrus, fresh fruit, and fresh vegetables loadings was less than 1/3 of the Milwaukee's.

The big issue for a smaller road is getting the cars they need; you don't get the traffic if you can't supply the cars. Why would either of these roads, both of which directly competed with the Milwaukee in some portions of their territory, want to be beholden to the Milwaukee for car supply?

A story that dates to slightly after the period of this list, but well illustrates my point:

In the mid sixties much of the beer off the Millwaukee's famed "beer line" shipped on the Soo. How can this be, the Soo doesn't even go to Milwaukee? Well, it does, via trackage rights on...wait for it... the Milwaukee. The Beer Line was open to reciprocal switching. As the MILW slid towards bankruptcy, they couldn't supply cars. But the Soo could. They were actively buying RBL's specifically for the service. They even rented a track in the MILW yard so they could store empties near the loading point. The end result is the MILW spotted Soo cars for loading and pulled the loads for a set switching charge, while the Soo Line got the road haul revenue divisions. Like I said, you can't get the business if you can't supply cars.

Dennis Storzek



Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Benjamin Hom
 

Rich Orr wrote:
"As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released."

Tim O'Connor replied: 
"I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.  It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!"

Rich Or replied:
"When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don't know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled."

The roof issue was exacerbated by the poor underframe design that made the finished models ride too high, and the aforementioned poor detail parts and trucks.

"Tossed Dick under the bus" seems a bit strong as the models had these deficiencies plus the poor detail parts, both of which were covered at the time in magazine reviews by Tony Thompson and Andy Sperandeo.  Andy's review was comprehensive and provided instruction on how to correct the worst problems.  We complain on this list about softball reviews in the magazines, so if honestly describing how to fix shortcomings is tossing a manufacturer under the bus, it might be time to question why you're on this list.

More on improving these models at Tony's blog here:


Ben Hom



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

hayden_tom@...
 

Does anyone know the status of Dick Schweiger and C&BT? 4 years ago, after seeing some new production product showing up on e-bay, especially from one seller in WA state, I corresponded with him and he was trying to sell the business. He even sent me several sets of new sprues (Tichy, I think) and some decals to use on the kits I owned.    I have not heard from him or about him since then. I still see some "new" product on e-bay, but could be from 4 years ago stock:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-BT-Shops-HO-7111-SanFran-Chief-Ship-Travel-Class-Rr33-Rd-4255-/230839839588?hash=item35bf206b64:m:mbViWxIQzYy4dJNKrmL9Z0w


Tom Hayden


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

John Barry
 

Jack and Dave Nelson are correct about the CNW trap cars, which appear in another Delano photo of home road cars in a home road yard. Besides, how do you explain all the photos of munitions loading or unloading from cars without said X's. The explosive laden cars did get the appropriate explosives placards, but they were clean, tight cars from the general box pool. Records in the National Archives show a mix of today's cars involved in most shipments.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 9/3/17, jack.f.mullen@gmail.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 2:44 AM


 









Dave Nelson said:" Ammo? 
I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL
service. "
Right
you are, but this 'X for explosives'  idea is one
of those railfan myths that just won't
die.
The
cars in question are CNW 15800-15998, even nos.
 They're described in the ORER, 1940s vintage, as
"Box, Trap". They were used in essentially captive
service between C&NW freight houses.  There's a
photo of some being switched at the C&NW freight house
under the Merchandise Mart,  not the sort of place
you'd want carloads of high
explosive.
Jack
Mullen 









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Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

John Barry
 

Dave,

UP only had trackage rights into the LA basin. The UP's LA&SL came on to ATSF track at Dagget and left RR west of San Bernardino, I think at Riverside. The Mojave District was Santa Fe only Barstow to Mojave where it used trackage rights on the SP Mojave to Kern Junction, thence Santa Fe into Bakersfield. I've always thought of Barstow as a three way crossroads account the Santa Fe lines and the physical connection to the UP not involved. But you raise a good point that it was the operational interchange point for LA-Salt Lake traffic.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 9/2/17, devans1@erols.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 2, 2017, 10:49 PM


 









John,

Thank-you
for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail
routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction
of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP
lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP
lines west to LA.)

Must
have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot.
(Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard,
and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's
challenge...

Dave Evans









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Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Bill,

Absolutely. When C&BT introduced the 12-panel side cars, they offered them with 6, 7, and 8-foot doors, straight-panel roofs and 4/4 ends. I've never found prototypes for the 7 and 8-foot door cars, though I'm sure someone here will soon offer up some.

C&BT also offered their double-door car with a straight-panel roof and R-3/4 ends, a rare if not unprotypical combination.

There were other combinations of features that at best had one-off prototypes such as 6' door/straight-panel roof/R-3/4 end (NP only IIRC, unless you shave off the rivets).

I think C&BT got carried away with all the possibilities, or thought various combinations of features would still sell to "the vested interests" and others who didn't care about prototype accuracy.

Although I still have a few C&BT cars that were built stock, most were upgraded with Intermountain or other higher-quality parts, nearly all were repainted and decaled, and the trucks went into the garbage. The others will be reworked someday (maybe).

Beyond the poor detail parts, C&BT may have saturated their market niche. Higher-tier kits from IMWX, Intermountain and Branchline pretty much sealed C&BT's fate among serious modelers. I still grab them up when I find any for sale at train shows since the bodies are fodder for many projects I will probably never get to (longbows and O-scale British narrow gauge currently eating up much of my hobby time).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff



On 9/2/17 10:06 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] wrote (in part):

 

. . . It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch




Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

np328
 

Here is found some citrus Al, that covers those roads.
 
However I'll go with Ray's statement about fruit, I am one of the younger guys here and I can recall as a child my parents admonishing us kids things like "eat these strawberries/cantaloupe/watermelon now while they're here". (in season)  
No flown in fruit from Chile back then, none that I recall.
Course the inside of a strawberry was red then not white. And actually had flavor.

                                                                                        Jim Dick - St. Paul


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Jack Mullen
 

Dave Nelson said:
Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service. "

Right you are, but this 'X for explosives'  idea is one of those railfan myths that just won't die.

The cars in question are CNW 15800-15998, even nos.  They're described in the ORER, 1940s vintage, as "Box, Trap". They were used in essentially captive service between C&NW freight houses.  There's a photo of some being switched at the C&NW freight house under the Merchandise Mart,  not the sort of place you'd want carloads of high explosive.

Jack Mullen
 


Re: Rock Island 50' Auto Box underframe.

Jason Kliewer
 

Thank you for the reply Ed.  I was actually just about to contact the Pullman Library on another matter so I'll add this inquiry.

To maybe be more specific, I'm looking at the cars that went to the DCI for tire loading.  The Morning Sun color guide says they probably come from RI series 262450-262799.  I assume these will be similar cars to what you mentioned.  I know some series had end doors and others didn't.


Thanks again,

Jason


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Vera Mills
 

Hello,

Referring to intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain 1937 Modified Kits, a survey of my C&BT Shops kits shows that my first box car arrived on 20 September 1990 with the first one having cast-on ladders arriving on 31 March 1999.  Overlapping did not occur.

My IMWX kits arrived on 21 June 2001 and the first Intermountain 1937 box cars arrived on 26 August 1998.  Both were late-comers, in the context of this discussion, to my railway.

With Santa Fe reefers, the first C&BT Shops one arrived on 22 February 1993 with the kits with grey ladders arriving 1 November 2001.  However, the latter were second hand which could indicate that the hinges were "lost".  Subsequently, the first reefer with grey ladders and door hinges arrived on 20 August 2008 and reefers with black ladders and door hinges arrived on 9 March 20123.  Once again, overlapping did not occur.  Not sure about wire grabs.

The first Intermountain Santa Fe reefers arrived via Long's on 5 March 1996.

I believe that the IMWX, and Intermountain 40' box cars were 1937 modified and C&BT Shops box cars were 1944.

Thank you for the opportunity to help establish Intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain kits as I needed to do a spread-sheet on the ladders and hinges for the C&BT Shops reefers..

Regards,

Glen Mills


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>OH BOY!!  I get to say it (again): All those tens of thousands of IC reefers were hauling bananas to Chicago. 
>>Growing up on the north side there were bananas in the house all eyar long.
>>Dave Nelson


The stats I cited are from 1925 Dave, not 1955: there was a far larger mix of regional produce variation back in the good old days of railroading. That's why the IC had 4500 reefers, and also1800 ventilated boxcars. That's also why you see pre-Depression era photos of IC reefers in Ft. Dodge, LaSalle, and Dodgeville.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL








Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave Nelson
 

Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 3:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Dave Nelson
 

OH BOY!! I get to say it (again): All those tens of thousands of IC reefers were hauling bananas to Chicago. Growing up on the north side there were bananas in the house all eyar long.



Dave Nelson



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 4:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C GW leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?








Dennis Storzek wrote:


I don't think any of the granger roads originated enough reefer loads to really worry about it....




ORIGINATING LOADS, 1925

ROAD CITRUS FRESH FRUIT POTATOES FRESH VEG
C&NW 29 1948 8744 4327
CMO 4 418 2513 475
CGW 12 168 139 288
MILW 66 1422 2794 3834
GB&W 0 41 2310 512
CB&Q 68 2813 4391 1194
C&A 7 1710 35 88
RI &n! bsp; 51 1974 1878 1406
C&EI 0 1184 176 365
CI&L 0 225 12 280
CCC&StL 58 716 125 901
IC 160 31911 1277 7255
SOO 26 923 9032 740





More than likely, anyone who thinks that Grangers didn't produce reefer loads is modeling the wrong year.



Ray Breyer

Elgin, IL


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave Nelson
 

From the initial question I specifically excluded home road cars from the distribution model.  Tim concurred.  Which is to say the photo of an ATSF yard showing gobs of ATSH boxcars is pretty irrelevant to the theory on the distribution of foreign road boxcars.

 

What I have said on more recent occasions about home road empties is that I thought a logical argument could be made for large numbers of home road boxcars to be set aside in protective service out of the way places where inbound loads were greatly exceeded by outbounds.  Small towns for lumber mills comes to mind.  OTOH, very large urban areas, such as Los Angeles, probably had many, many inbound boxcars taking loads to local manufacturing, warehouse, and consumption centers, potentially leaving enough empties each day that there would be less need for local railroads to hold all that many home road cars in protective service. 

 

AFAIK there are no large number of samples from small town America that could be used to tabulate a large enough sample to draw a firm conclusion as to whose cars carried outbound loads.  I think common sense rules here but this is clearly one of those matters where YMMV.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model



Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Bruce Smith
 

Dave,


The N-G model does not apply to home road cars, or to individual trains.  No-one associated with it has ever claimed it did.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of devans1@... [STMFC] Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 1:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
 


Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans 


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

>>I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four?
>>What kind of citrus, and originating where?
>>Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


I threw that statistic in to throw people for a loop, as I'm sure that the carloads were generated from large wholesale gathering points and resold (although there is some lemon production in Southern IL).
But anything's possible. There were 35 acres of greenhouses dedicated to winter cucumber production around Cleveland before WWI, so there could have been something similar for fruit.
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

devansprr
 

John,

Thank-you for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP lines west to LA.)

Must have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot. (Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard, and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's challenge...

Dave Evans


Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Richard Townsend
 

Didn't at least some of the plug door versions get released. I think I have two different plug door CB&T SFRD reefers in my stash.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: SUVCWORR@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:22 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

 
Tim,

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor




As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released. 

Rich Orr



Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Bill Welch
 

I poured over the articles in RMJ by Ed Hawkins and Richard Hendrickson deciding which cars to model with these kits. I lowered one six-inches to do a Green & Orange EJ&E car with scratch built Superior doors using Walthers decals. Other cars I modeled that I can remember tonight are an ITC w/two level Dalmans; P&WV (black) and Southern w/8-foot doors, and a UP DD auto car.

One major frustration was that because of the modular tooling to achieve the mix of roofs, sides, and ends, there was often poor alignment between ends and sides or roof and ends. But despite this, the oversize rivets, and throwing away detail sprues, when the models were finished they had a very pleasing appearance.

It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch


Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

al_brown03
 

I'm fascinated that citrus loads originated on some Northern roads: CGW? SOO? Big Four? What kind of citrus, and originating where?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

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