Date   

Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:


It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay per diem on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

 

    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy,was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

 

Tony

 

Well, sure, Tony, a buck vs $50 is a big difference.  But if you are holding those cars for . . . how long, ten days, twenty days? . . . like those cars in the line we’re discussing look like they might have been held, that starts to tot up to some money.  And why would you do that when you’ve got your own cars in substantial numbers right there, enough to satisfy the Traffic Department?  Better to load those off-line cars with a paying load and get them off the property.  There are so many stories of the 11:45 PM transfer runs to get off=road cars off the property that I can’t believe this was not a consideration. The green eyeshades also had a lot of influence too.

 

And in those days, a dollar was still real money.

 

Schuyler


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tom,

Dennis is not on this list as his modeling interests are a time which has not yet occurred as far as this list is concerned.  He, in fact, did provide the 1988 date which then confirmed with Dick.  Dennis and I are both active members of the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum and I see him at least weekly when we work on rolling stock.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: pullmanboss@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 3, 2017 6:56 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



The instruction sheet in the IMWX 1937 boxcar kit is copyright 1991. I first met Jerry Porter that year at the Denver National; NMRA convention ("Mountains of Fun in '91").IIRC he had just, or was about to, introduce the kit.


I don't think Dennis Lippert has chimed in yet on the C&BT Shops dates. When I discovered the rec.models.railroad newsgroup in 1992 Dennis was an active participant, and was doing assembly work for C&BT. I first became aware of C&BT's line of boxcar kits at a large train show at the fairgrounds in Pomona, CA, where Dick had test shots and lots of literature on display. My admittedly flawed memory says 1989 or 1990.


Tom Madden




Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Tony Thompson
 

Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:

 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.


    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy,was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Tom Vanwormer
 

Guys,
In this discussion, please remember the US Marine Corps west coast supply and repair depot was located at Yermo (now USMC Logistics Center, Barstow.)  So there was a need for spare cars for emergency responses during the W.W. II period.  Remember during this period the customer's requirements were still prime.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

Schuyler

Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Hi there,

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads. In this case, I basically agree with that conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image. But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks. When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full. When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here) there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

Rob

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans




Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tom Madden
 

The instruction sheet in the IMWX 1937 boxcar kit is copyright 1991. I first met Jerry Porter that year at the Denver National; NMRA convention ("Mountains of Fun in '91").IIRC he had just, or was about to, introduce the kit.


I don't think Dennis Lippert has chimed in yet on the C&BT Shops dates. When I discovered the rec.models.railroad newsgroup in 1992 Dennis was an active participant, and was doing assembly work for C&BT. I first became aware of C&BT's line of boxcar kits at a large train show at the fairgrounds in Pomona, CA, where Dick had test shots and lots of literature on display. My admittedly flawed memory says 1989 or 1990.


Tom Madden


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Schuyler Larrabee
 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.



Schuyler



Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Hi there,



Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads. In this case, I basically agree with that conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image. But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks. When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full. When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here) there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.



Rob



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model





Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transporation Storage facilities

Tony Thompson
 

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.


     I would caution about interpreting truck spring coil spacing, particularly cars with trucks older than the late 1930s. Spring travel was fairly small in that period, and it can be quite difficult to distinguish empty from loaded on that basis; and remember, many loads in box cars were NOT anywhere near the load limit of the car. A spring that actually IS fully compressed is said to have "gone solid" and no longer acts as a spring, so even a full-weight load should leave SOME spring spacing.
      The long-travel springs common after 1950 are another matter, and there can be quite a distinct difference in coil spacing between loaded and empty. I am just observing that Delano photos probably will not have that feature.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

ROGER HINMAN
 

Actually there were large shipments of canned condensed milk coming out of the Midwest in reefers.
I posted a file of produce inspectors data years ago in the 1940s and there was lots of it. Butter eggs and cheese also. Mdt used to say be called a dairy express line, I'm sure urtx would capture this traffic, I'm still digging for data there

Roger hinman

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, roy wojahn zuch2rew@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I would think cheese products could move in a reefer, but milk or cream would move in express or express-reefer cars in passenger service.  Milk to Chicago via passenger trains was a large business for C&NW.

Roy Wojahn


On Sunday, September 3, 2017 2:15 PM, " Roger Hinman rhinman11@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 
Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Re venue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson










Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

roy wojahn
 

I would think cheese products could move in a reefer, but milk or cream would move in express or express-reefer cars in passenger service.  Milk to Chicago via passenger trains was a large business for C&NW.

Roy Wojahn


On Sunday, September 3, 2017 2:15 PM, "Roger Hinman rhinman11@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 
Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson










Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

ROGER HINMAN
 

Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From:
"Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson








MTY's and WWII War Department Transporation Storage facilities

devansprr
 

Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans 

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory


---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Hi there,

 

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads.  In this case, I basically agree with that  conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image.  But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks.  When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full.  When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here)  there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

 

Rob     

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans



Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Robert kirkham
 

Hi there,

 

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads.  In this case, I basically agree with that  conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image.  But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks.  When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full.  When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here)  there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

 

Rob     

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans



Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Canadian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson








Re: C&BT reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Keith Jordan wrote:

 
Dick told me that his tool and die man took umbrage at the many changes/corrections that were deemed necessary and refused to make many of them. Dick then told me that because of his investment with the project he did not feel like alienating the tool and die man. I never heard a word about the cars again.

     This was the core of the problem. Dick knew many of the shortcomings of the dies, and had only been able to find that one individual to do the die work. The die maker had never done such finely detailed dies as an HO scale model before, and was unwilling to try some of the refinements Dick wanted him to do. It is very unfortunate in hindsight that Dick could not find someone better, or was so unwilling to dump the guy who, in the final analysis, really could not do the job. People who have blamed Dick for not knowing any better are wide of the mark. The right complaint is that Dick compromised what he knew was needed, to get product out the door.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: C&BT reefers

Tim O'Connor
 



Caveat Emptor also applies to "advice". More than one model has gone into
production based on seriously questionable advice. Heck, just look at a photo
of the prototype - that should have stopped Dick in his tracks!




Ben,

I used the term in reference to the fact that those individual(s) had the opportunity to tell Dick that there were issues with the cars but did not.  In fact, told him they were good to go and then that same individual(s) harshly criticized the models they said were accurate and good to go into production.  I don't know how else such behavior can be described.  I am not speaking of are not those who did the how to fix it articles.

Rich Orr



Ben Hom wrote:

"Tossed Dick under the bus" seems a bit strong as the models had these deficiencies plus the poor detail parts, both of which were covered at the time in magazine reviews by Tony Thompson and Andy Sperandeo.  Andy's review was comprehensive and provided instruction on how to correct the worst problems.  We complain on this list about softball reviews in the magazines, so if honestly describing how to fix shortcomings is tossing a manufacturer under the bus, it might be time to question why you're on this list.


Re: C&BT reefers

Keith Jordan
 

As one who was involved with the design and development of the C&BT SFRD reefers, I feel the need to clarify some statements made earlier by folks who were not involved.

I’m not aware of anyone, particularly “ATSF experts,” who “okayed” the model then “tossed Dick under the bus.” Dick sent me, as the one who was behind the idea of the kits, the drawings done by his tool and die man, before tooling was cut. I looked at the drawings very carefully and made dozens of notes and corrections in red. Most of the corrections were dimensions and placement of carbody features. I then sent the drawings to Dick for his handling. I never saw roof nor detail drawings.

Dick told me that his tool and die man took umbrage at the many changes/corrections that were deemed necessary and refused to make many of them. Dick then told me that because of his investment with the project he did not feel like alienating the tool and die man. I never heard a word about the cars again.

I first saw the injection-molded carbodies at the NEBW club in New York, where they came from, I don’t know. The side detail was quite good, but the recessed Dreadnaught ends were rendered poorly. The subsequent carbody/end variations were done well. 

A fair review of the cars was written in the (then) Santa Fe Modeler magazine where editor Jay Miller rightly pointed out that the roof was indeed a scale three inches too tall, but the more egregious error was the roof was nine scale inches too wide! Jay showed how to fix it, but it was quite a project only made easier by using a milling machine. I also worked with Randy Anderson and Martin Lofton to produce replacement ends and details in resin.

Dick was never thrown under the bus, but made his own business decisions which ultimately doomed the project. I always remained on good terms with Dick.

I was contacted later by IMRC who broached the idea of doing an SFRD reefer correctly and I worked with them in the same vein to produce a very good product.

Just the facts, ma’am.

Keith Jordan

When production stopped he had plug door bodies already to go but the "overhanging" roof continued to be an issue.  To me, the biggest problem was the roof sat too high.  I don;t know if complete kits were provided for review or not.  I do know they were not assembled.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 3:59 pm
Subject: [STMFC] re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Rich

I've wondered about this - the BODY and ENDS on his reefers were just fine.
It was the extremely poorly rendered roof that really spoils the model. If I
had seen only the body and ends I would have given them a thumbs up too. It's
a real shame because Dick cut bodies for several different SFRD reefers!

Tim O'Connor

As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.  

Rich Orr


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

As of a few months ago the business was still for sale.  He has stock of some models and decals.  He has all the dies.  He was in discussion with a major car producer however their primary interest was in the X29B which was not finished and at that point, discussions ceased.

Dick has had some health issues.  He had a lung transplant several years ago.  Most of his time is now devoted to helping his wife manage her temp agency.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: hayden_tom@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 3, 2017 9:47 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Does anyone know the status of Dick Schweiger and C&BT? 4 years ago, after seeing some new production product showing up on e-bay, especially from one seller in WA state, I corresponded with him and he was trying to sell the business. He even sent me several sets of new sprues (Tichy, I think) and some decals to use on the kits I owned.    I have not heard from him or about him since then. I still see some "new" product on e-bay, but could be from 4 years ago stock:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-BT-Shops-HO-7111-SanFran-Chief-Ship-Travel-Class-Rr33-Rd-4255-/230839839588?hash=item35bf206b64:m:mbViWxIQzYy4dJNKrmL9Z0w


Tom Hayden




Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Tony Thompson
 

       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson




Re: C&BT reefers (was: C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Ben,

I used the term in reference to the fact that those individual(s) had the opportunity to tell Dick that there were issues with the cars but did not.  In fact, told him they were good to go and then that same individual(s) harshly criticized the models they said were accurate and good to go into production.  I don't know how else such behavior can be described.  I am not speaking of are not those who did the how to fix it articles.

Rich Orr



Ben Hom wrote:

"Tossed Dick under the bus" seems a bit strong as the models had these deficiencies plus the poor detail parts, both of which were covered at the time in magazine reviews by Tony Thompson and Andy Sperandeo.  Andy's review was comprehensive and provided instruction on how to correct the worst problems.  We complain on this list about softball reviews in the magazines, so if honestly describing how to fix shortcomings is tossing a manufacturer under the bus, it might be time to question why you're on this list.

Yahoo! Groups


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Clark Propst
 

My feeble memory thinks I bought kits from the then defunct IMWX at the CNWHS meet in 92. Meaning they were already offered by Red Caboose?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

36221 - 36240 of 188621