Date   

RPM Chicagoland Minikit update

Eric Hansmann
 

The RPM Chicagoland event is ahead on the calendar. Early registrants for the event will receive a minikit. Check out those details on the RCW blog. 


Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy


Westerfield kit

Jared Harper
 

Does anyone have a Westerfield  #7861 Santa Fe Bx-O/5 box car they would like to sell either kit or built up? 

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

devansprr
 

Schuyler,

No surprise that the home road cars would be held, but there are two factors to consider:

1) During WWII, the shortage of XM's was considered to be rather acute (and hence the use of MT Reefers in XM service (only in some circumstances, and for lighter loads.) So large amounts of home road MT's sitting around may not have been very common.

2) For modeling WWII, the string, especially if it was loaded, makes for a rather unique consist - a long string of what looks to be exclusively home road box cars. The lack of WWII consist data and photographs makes such a potential discovery "surprising" - at least to me.

Can anyone weigh in on whether the ATSF would nail paper on the tackboards of MT box cars during WWII
?
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote :

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.



Schuyler



Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory



---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Hi there,



Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads. In this case, I basically agree with that conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image. But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks. When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full. When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here) there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.



Rob



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model





Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

John Barry
 

Shortly after Pearl Harbor, the Army set up regulating stations at Spokane, Ogden, Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, and El Paso to maintain fluid traffic conditions on the Pacific coast.  They and additional sub-stations functioned throughout the war.


Army freight movements were under control of the Army's Office of the Chief of Transportation (OCT) after March 1942, before that, Chief, Quartermaster Corps.  All long distance carload traffic and all traffic destined to one of the ports was centrally routed through the OCT.  To avoid congestion in the ports, OCT set up ten Holding and Reconsignment Points:

Auburn, WA
Elmira, NY
Lathrop, CA
Marieta, PA
Montgomery, AL
Pasco, WA
Richmond, VA
Shreveport, LA
Voorheesville, NY
Yermo, CA

These points were used as transit storage for shipments through the ports they served.  When the port couldn't accommodate an inbound shipment, it was held at the holding & reconsignment point.  Lathrop served the San Francisco Port of Embarkation (POE) and Yermo served the LA POE.  A short delay might be held on the inbound railcar.  But any thing like a week or more (have to verify the exact cut off) would be unloaded and placed into Storage In Transit.  When the port was ready for the shipment, it was reloaded and forwarded.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

 

Also, demurrage is something charged to rail customers, not railroads.
Railroads paid per diem to each other. If you took too long to load or
unload your cars, you paid demurrage. Or if your cargo sat waiting for a
boat at a port, the railroads charged demurrage for that. I think it was
used as a fine, and was much more than per diem.

Many railroads had NET INCOME from per diem, and none of them were happy
about it, because it was generally lower than the cost of ownership of the
cars. The NP and GN annual reports from the 1950's complain about it constantly.

Of course Incentive Per Diem changes all that, but that hasn't happened yet.

Tim O'Connor




Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy, was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

Tony Thompson



Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

John Barry
 

Guys,

Don't forget this is in 1943 during WWII.  The Office of Defense Transportation (ODT) through ICC orders has just made the private reefers a national pool, the ODT Liquid Transport Division is managing the national tank car fleet, AAR is investigating reports of detention and providing daily car reports to ODT and the Army's Office of the Chief of Transportation (OCT).  OCT is centrally routing all Army carload freight from their Traffic Control Division in Washington, monitoring shipment progress as they roll by the Regulating Stations and holding traffic or diverting it to the Holding & Reconsignment Points (H&RP) if the destination Port is unable to accept and load it.  At this point in the war, Yermo is ONLY a H&RP, not a depot, that comes much later in the war.  The H&RPs were designed and operated as Storage in Transit facilities an overnight journey from the port it served.  The Army tracked shipments with waybill files for the majority of the stuff there as it was only temporary.  The H&RP wasn't set up to pick & pull items or fill requisitions like the depots.  When the port could accept it, the inbound carload was reloaded into the next available suitable car and forwarded.  Or it was diverted to another destination by the carload.  One way to get those empties would be to cull them from the next EB Santa Fe manifest freight.  There was an imbalance of loads and empties through Barstow, I doubt they stockpiled any cars there.  Another possibility to consider is that this may have been an empty west bound cut of ATSF cars returning from the UP at SLC.  Barstow is where they would have been delivered.  And no one has commented on the mix of road names in the cut on the track just behind the Santa Fe boxes.
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

 

Also, demurrage is something charged to rail customers, not railroads.
Railroads paid per diem to each other. If you took too long to load or
unload your cars, you paid demurrage. Or if your cargo sat waiting for a
boat at a port, the railroads charged demurrage for that. I think it was
used as a fine, and was much more than per diem.

Many railroads had NET INCOME from per diem, and none of them were happy
about it, because it was generally lower than the cost of ownership of the
cars. The NP and GN annual reports from the 1950's complain about it constantly.

Of course Incentive Per Diem changes all that, but that hasn't happened yet.

Tim O'Connor




Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy, was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

Tony Thompson



END LADDERS

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


Scott:

I have often split Pierre's styles in order to get a flat side for the ends. If you are using the bending  tool try clamping the style in the tool with the side to be removed outboard.  Then use thst neat small saw from.Micro Mark to cut away the unwanted side.
   


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Tim O'Connor
 


Also, demurrage is something charged to rail customers, not railroads.
Railroads paid per diem to each other. If you took too long to load or
unload your cars, you paid demurrage. Or if your cargo sat waiting for a
boat at a port, the railroads charged demurrage for that. I think it was
used as a fine, and was much more than per diem.

Many railroads had NET INCOME from per diem, and none of them were happy
about it, because it was generally lower than the cost of ownership of the
cars. The NP and GN annual reports from the 1950's complain about it constantly.

Of course Incentive Per Diem changes all that, but that hasn't happened yet.

Tim O'Connor




Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they�d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy, was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

Tony Thompson


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:


It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay per diem on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

 

    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy,was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

 

Tony

 

Well, sure, Tony, a buck vs $50 is a big difference.  But if you are holding those cars for . . . how long, ten days, twenty days? . . . like those cars in the line we’re discussing look like they might have been held, that starts to tot up to some money.  And why would you do that when you’ve got your own cars in substantial numbers right there, enough to satisfy the Traffic Department?  Better to load those off-line cars with a paying load and get them off the property.  There are so many stories of the 11:45 PM transfer runs to get off=road cars off the property that I can’t believe this was not a consideration. The green eyeshades also had a lot of influence too.

 

And in those days, a dollar was still real money.

 

Schuyler


Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

SUVCWORR@...
 

Tom,

Dennis is not on this list as his modeling interests are a time which has not yet occurred as far as this list is concerned.  He, in fact, did provide the 1988 date which then confirmed with Dick.  Dennis and I are both active members of the Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum and I see him at least weekly when we work on rolling stock.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: pullmanboss@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 3, 2017 6:56 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



The instruction sheet in the IMWX 1937 boxcar kit is copyright 1991. I first met Jerry Porter that year at the Denver National; NMRA convention ("Mountains of Fun in '91").IIRC he had just, or was about to, introduce the kit.


I don't think Dennis Lippert has chimed in yet on the C&BT Shops dates. When I discovered the rec.models.railroad newsgroup in 1992 Dennis was an active participant, and was doing assembly work for C&BT. I first became aware of C&BT's line of boxcar kits at a large train show at the fairgrounds in Pomona, CA, where Dick had test shots and lots of literature on display. My admittedly flawed memory says 1989 or 1990.


Tom Madden




Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Tony Thompson
 

Schuyler Larrabee] wrote:

 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.


    Schuyler, my understanding from talking to railroaders, and also from perusing data of this period, is that you are exaggerating the importance of per diem (as do many modelers). In the era of this photo, per diem was about a dollar a day. Most freight bills yielded revenue of 50 dollars and up. Of course I am not saying that per diem was ignored, only that it was only PART of the equation. Making sure you have cars for revenue loading, especially if you are keeping a customer happy,was far more important than a dollar a day. And even if Accounting complained, your boss in the Traffic Department would totally defend you.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Tom Vanwormer
 

Guys,
In this discussion, please remember the US Marine Corps west coast supply and repair depot was located at Yermo (now USMC Logistics Center, Barstow.)  So there was a need for spare cars for emergency responses during the W.W. II period.  Remember during this period the customer's requirements were still prime.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.

Schuyler

Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Hi there,

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads. In this case, I basically agree with that conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image. But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks. When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full. When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here) there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

Rob

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans




Re: Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits

Tom Madden
 

The instruction sheet in the IMWX 1937 boxcar kit is copyright 1991. I first met Jerry Porter that year at the Denver National; NMRA convention ("Mountains of Fun in '91").IIRC he had just, or was about to, introduce the kit.


I don't think Dennis Lippert has chimed in yet on the C&BT Shops dates. When I discovered the rec.models.railroad newsgroup in 1992 Dennis was an active participant, and was doing assembly work for C&BT. I first became aware of C&BT's line of boxcar kits at a large train show at the fairgrounds in Pomona, CA, where Dick had test shots and lots of literature on display. My admittedly flawed memory says 1989 or 1990.


Tom Madden


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transpiration Storage facilities

Schuyler Larrabee
 

It would be very unlikely that any RR would accumulate non-home road cars for use, since they’d have to pay demurrage on them, no? So why the surprise that these cars, if indeed they are being held in anticipation of traffic demands, are home road cars? And they could have been hauled there from the port and industrial areas of LA to avoid clogging up the local yards in the LA basin.



Schuyler



Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Hi there,



Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads. In this case, I basically agree with that conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image. But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks. When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full. When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here) there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.



Rob



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model





Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans


Re: MTY's and WWII War Department Transporation Storage facilities

Tony Thompson
 

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.


     I would caution about interpreting truck spring coil spacing, particularly cars with trucks older than the late 1930s. Spring travel was fairly small in that period, and it can be quite difficult to distinguish empty from loaded on that basis; and remember, many loads in box cars were NOT anywhere near the load limit of the car. A spring that actually IS fully compressed is said to have "gone solid" and no longer acts as a spring, so even a full-weight load should leave SOME spring spacing.
      The long-travel springs common after 1950 are another matter, and there can be quite a distinct difference in coil spacing between loaded and empty. I am just observing that Delano photos probably will not have that feature.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

ROGER HINMAN
 

Actually there were large shipments of canned condensed milk coming out of the Midwest in reefers.
I posted a file of produce inspectors data years ago in the 1940s and there was lots of it. Butter eggs and cheese also. Mdt used to say be called a dairy express line, I'm sure urtx would capture this traffic, I'm still digging for data there

Roger hinman

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On Sunday, September 3, 2017, roy wojahn zuch2rew@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I would think cheese products could move in a reefer, but milk or cream would move in express or express-reefer cars in passenger service.  Milk to Chicago via passenger trains was a large business for C&NW.

Roy Wojahn


On Sunday, September 3, 2017 2:15 PM, " Roger Hinman rhinman11@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

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On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 
Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Re venue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson










Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

roy wojahn
 

I would think cheese products could move in a reefer, but milk or cream would move in express or express-reefer cars in passenger service.  Milk to Chicago via passenger trains was a large business for C&NW.

Roy Wojahn


On Sunday, September 3, 2017 2:15 PM, "Roger Hinman rhinman11@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

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Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 
Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson










Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

ROGER HINMAN
 

Railroad annual reports are often a good source of this data also, generally before ww2 though. One of the problems with looking at the data over a span of years is the categories can change

Roger hinman

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Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com

On Sunday, September 3, 2017, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Can adian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From:
"Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson








MTY's and WWII War Department Transporation Storage facilities

devansprr
 

Rob,

I thought of that and I am not sure if it helps. Only two trucks in the ATSF string are clearly visible. The one further left doesn't scream loaded, while the springs on the second truck to the left may be compressed a fair amount. The D&RGW gon adjacent to those cars is a good indication of how an MT car's springs would look.

The gap between the top of the bolster and the underside of the top cross-member of the truck appears to be greater on both box car trucks compared to the empty Gon, but that could be due to different trucks.

I noticed that all six of the ATSF cars close enough to tell all seem to have some manner of paperwork/placards attached to them. Bill-of-ladings? Or paperwork indicating MT?

Resolution is not high enough to tell if there are seals on the doors, and I am not an expert in this area - I'm not up on what seals would look like and where BOL's would normally be attached, and if the ATSF would attach some manner of MT paperwork in the same location. What say the group?

Another question for an ATSF expert would be just how many EB MT XMs would be passing through Barstow on any given day during WWII. They would surely include many foreign road cars, and it may be enough to satisfy the demand if a MAIN train was suddenly requested out of Yermo for a west coast port, without having to stockpile ATSF MT's in Barstow.

I have often noticed lots of home road MT's in the large classification yards in the few WWII pictures that exist (and I have no expectation that N-G applies to them), but Barstow was not much of a classification yard during WWII. John Barry has painted a very busy picture of traffic passing through and blocks of cars being exchanged. A long string of home road MT's being stored in such a location just to handle the limited industry in the area does not make a lot of operational sense.

Conversely, the Yermo storage facility was no doubt receiving a steady stream of loads from the east that would have generated a lot of MT EB traffic. (That was the point of these distribution facilities - accumulate material as it was produced, close to the ports of embarkation, and then deliver ship loads of cargo in a day, on-demand, to the ports of embarkation. This was a lesson learned from the disastrous practices of WWI, where loaded cars were stuck for days and weeks around the ports of embarkation with no ship to unload in to.)

Dave Evans 

PS - changed the thread name since this really doesn't have much to do with the N-G theory


---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Hi there,

 

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads.  In this case, I basically agree with that  conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image.  But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks.  When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full.  When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here)  there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

 

Rob     

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans



Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

Robert kirkham
 

Hi there,

 

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads.  In this case, I basically agree with that  conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image.  But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks.  When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full.  When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here)  there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

 

Rob     

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans



Re: URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Tony,

There are; I pulled my numbers from the ICC's "Freight Commodity Statistics, Class One Steam Railways in the United States".
Those were begun in 1924 (post-USRA), and 1924 through 1976 are available from various sources online.

I also have the similar ICC "Statistics of Railways in the United States" from 1888-1918, the similar "Railway Statistics of the Dominion of Canada" from 1875-1919, and for a comparison based on major competitors, the ICC's "Statistics of Class One Motor Carriers" from 1938-1953 and "Revenue Ton-Miles and Passenger-Miles of Motor Carriers" from 1940-1948. All of this information's online (usually Google Books, but the Canadian stuff is from Internet Archive).

Modern governments are mad about data collection, and there are numbers out there for just about everything. The challenge is in finding the numbers, and then crunching them!
One of these days I'll get around to tabulating the information I've collected.....if I live long enough.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] URTX and MILW, M&StL, SOO, C G W leased reefers: A Pool Arrangement?



       Are there numbers out there for dairy product shipping? I think of the upper Midwest as a major source of those products and they would certainly have moved in reefers.

Tony Thompson







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