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Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bill;

Let me know if you need some pics.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 11:22 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question



Bill, Folks,

The F29 and F33 are also available from F&C, as well as all 3 (F28. F29 and F33) being available from Railworks in brass in HO. In addition, extra trucks are available in brass if you wish to equip your F&C flat with brass trucks instead of the resin trucks in the kit.

Regards

Bruce




Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 5, 2017, at 10:19 AM, fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com <mailto:fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com> [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch


Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Bill Welch
 

However I should not try to count early in the day. The Tichy door is 5/6/5, NOT 5/5/5 as I said earlier.

I am going to look at the Bowser door too, I am trying to make better doors for my Atlas 1932 Erie and I-GN models.

Bill Welch


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill, Folks,

The F29 and F33 are also available from F&C, as well as all 3 (F28. F29 and F33) being available from Railworks in brass in HO.  In addition, extra trucks are available in brass if you wish to equip your F&C flat with brass trucks instead of the resin trucks in the kit.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 5, 2017, at 10:19 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch




Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bill Welch
 

Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

Having looked at the kit, this will be one of the easiest resin cars to build because it has something like 10 parts, but I’m SURE you’ll find room to improve the details.

That said, the F28 class consisted of just 2 cars so no, not even close to the most common.  Other cars with larger rosters included the FN (10), FNa (27), F25 (17?), F25a (6), F33 (10), and F37 (20).  

BTW, the PRRPro group is taking on the F28/F29/F33 as our first project for 2018, so that project will start january 1, 2018, if you’d like to join in.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 5, 2017, at 8:46 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Curious if anyone here has built or can comment on Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 issued by Funaro & Camerlengo? Was the F28 their most numerous well hole type?



Bill Welch






Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

There were only 2 PRR F28 flats.  

FNa - 27
F25 - 26
F33 - 16
FN - 10
all the others were less than 10

Rich Orr



F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bill Welch
 

Curious if anyone here has built or can comment on Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 issued by Funaro & Camerlengo? Was the F28 their most numerous well hole type?


Bill Welch



nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Great, thanks Ben, The Bowser single 6' door is a better door than the similar Tichy, and as Ben reminds us, it is not a molded-on door.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]"

 
Andy Carlson wrote:
"Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars)."



Ben Hom



Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Bryian Sones
 

Yes, Bill I think you are right. The Tichy door is the right one. It seems to match all the other refrences I have.

Thanks,
Bryian 


On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 6:00 AM, "Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Bill said:
 
Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch







PRR X26 Youngstown doors

Andy Carlson
 

Bill Welch called the door posted yesterday as a 5/5/5. Ben Hom mentioned a splice witness line due to the PRR making up a pair of aux. doors from X28 cars donors to fit the 6' wide door opening.

This seemed odd to me, so I checked a photo on line of a real PRR X26, and it had Bill's 5/5/5-S Youngstown doors, and also with Ben's evidence of vertical door splicing.

The posted picture of the (Reading) USRA showed a 5/4/5-T door, so it is helpful to keep that in mind.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Benjamin Hom
 

Andy Carlson wrote:
"Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars)."



Ben Hom


Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bryian Sones
 

Yes, Bruce thanks, I 'm aware of it. It's not the only pic I was referencing from. The pic has the correct door, color and a close up shot of it. It was easier pic to identify the details.
I should have mention that before.

Bryian` 



On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 6:02 AM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Bryian,

FYI, the prototype photograph that you are modeling from is NOT a PRR X26.  If you do a little sleuthing, you will find that it is a USRA boxcar belonging to the Philadelphia and Reading (aka READING), number 5078, which is in the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Bryian Sones bryian.sones@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:




Hi All,

Trying to finish this car up and get it off my project list. Anyone offer the correct Youngstown door for this car?


Bryian






nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Somehow my response to Bill got stripped from my earlier email message. Here is what my response to Bill was.




Nitpicking is nothing to apologize for, Bill. Having said that, I think you need to look at that door's panel count again. Somehow you have added a phantom panel.


Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars). Some of the many disappointments include the IMWX/RC doors from the '37 AAR box car. I have admired many of Al Westerfield's resin doors for decades. It would have been nice if Dan Hall of Southwest Scale doors made some pre-wars in his stellar fashion.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



.








Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bruce Smith
 

Bryian,

FYI, the prototype photograph that you are modeling from is NOT a PRR X26.  If you do a little sleuthing, you will find that it is a USRA boxcar belonging to the Philadelphia and Reading (aka READING), number 5078, which is in the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Bryian Sones bryian.sones@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:




Hi All,

Trying to finish this car up and get it off my project list. Anyone offer the correct Youngstown door for this car?


Bryian




nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Bill said:
 
Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch





Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,
 
Photographic evidence, while appropriate for the presence of cars, is not the type of evidence that can be used to support or refute the N-G model because it says nothing about the proportion (with the oft debated exception of yard photos, which may or may not reflect the in service proportions).

The problem with your assumption with respect to gondolas is that, given the PRR’s huge fleet of gondolas, it is absolutely expected that some would arrive on the left coast.  The question would be for example, would you see a ration of RR gondolas to ATSF or UP gondolas that mimicked the national numbers on the SP?  I’d like to see conductors books or train records that confirm this before I believe that gondolas follow the N-G model.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 9:27 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce

You say, but I disagree. I have enough pictures of PRR gondolas in California,
Montana and the west to convince myself that they were found in proportion to
their population. Of course, since there were not many loads available for them
in California, they tended to go home quickly. But that does NOT change the
model at all. Do the math. The Southern Pacific owned a tiny number of mill
gondolas compared to its entire fleet, and you would be very unlikely to see
one in Pennsylvania, simply because they were incredibly rare compared to the
PRR's fleet. Heck, they were rare in SP freight trains too!

Tim O'Connor



And with all that, you got it wrong? :)  The N-G model does NOT apply to mill gondolas.  They are regional in distribution.  Flat cars do conform to the N-G model, at least for some periods.

Bruce Smith




Re: PRR X26 boxcar Youngstown door in HO Scale

Benjamin Hom
 

Bill Welch wrote:
"Sorry to nitpick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic."

While we're at it, a weld seam needs to be added to the door as it was made from two auxiliary doors salvaged from Class X28 automobile cars during their conversion to Class X28A boxcars.


Ben Hom 


Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bill Welch
 

Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

np328
 

     First of all, I can state that I am a great adherent to the N-G model. Everything I have found and studied on my road supported the thesis.

    After studying it awhile though, I have come to find, I cannot say disruptions to the theory, rather if I was talking about music, the existence of back-beats and syncopated rhythms that again, do not render the N-G model invalid, just rather less transparent than a cursory glance might reveal.  

    1) The crops in the US ripen from southwest to northeast across the US. They just do. Not west to east directly, not north to south directly, however in a diagonal across the US. After studying the AAR reports and then USDA reports and charts this jumped out. And from studying for my presentation on Closer to the Railhead, I saw the AAR issuing “home area” car orders in this same manner, about three weeks prior to the expected harvesting time. Car orders would go out to get all Southwestern road cars home first then head across the US in a plow shape towards New England with different states and home roads. This would (I think) gives a ripple in the N-G model as it is human directed input. It certainly is a seasonal deviation.

And another reason Richard Hendrickson’s admonishment that the more we as a modeler narrower the time frame modeled the greater one can apply data correctly is sage advice.

     California in some manner seemed (perhaps) exempt somewhat on a global scale to the AAR car orders ONLY as grain seemed to be the real boxcar driver and crops ripening in CA needed reefers. And that call home seemed to be pretty well handled by the private car fleets like PFE though AAR admonishments are found. Perhaps it is because of the nature of California with large population centers in that loads are terminated and so empties are available in greater proportions than inland. I am open to other commenting on that.

2) My home road, the NP…had a fleet of cars somewhat younger than the national average and/or because of that in better shape. A big commodity on the NP was lumber, dressed lumber and that honestly required cars to be in good shape inside. I submit that this fleet of cars younger and in better shape than the national average made it more likely for those cars to be stolen or kept, human nature being what it is. It helps explain why Mike Brock can state “and an NP boxcar in every photo”. And places another cross ripple in the N-G model. Human interaction (covetousness?) reducing the pure singularity of N-G?   

3) Crops like grain move twice. From the most recent AAR reports I presented on, grain is moved off the farm, and into what the local grain elevators can hold, where it sits until the sale price is acceptable. Then moves again either to port or to major large elevators elswhere. This second move is typically around January/February. Another set of cross currents to contend with. And like point 1, seasonal ones.   

4) Now if I throw in local research, like in my fall 1953 timeframe of traffic between Mpls/St. Paul and Duluth/Superior, I had found that lake coal into the Twin Cities area southbound was the No.1 commodity. I honestly had thought grain north to the ports would overshadow that, but no. Add a steel mill in Duluth with major manufacturing that would use that steel south in the Twin Cities and even more-so in southeastern Wisconsin and upstate Ill, and these all add to layers of complexity on top of the N_G theory.

    After much research, I have a list of the top six southbound commodities and top six northbound commodities for my modeled line in close to my time era. I also have a list of top five commodities for the entire NP Ry, all in my modeled era and these lists are all different. To me this only underlines the value of research.

     It does not however, to me - render the N-G theory invalid. It is a big determinant in how I shop for off-line cars in the LHS, or meets. I can purchase a car with comfort or walk away from a seemingly good deal.

    I do believe that if all points above were stripped away, underneath would be the N-G traffic patterns quietly humming away. However it would be under the layers I listed above.   

Brian J Carlson gave what I thought was a better than decent presentation on how the N-G model was applied to his modeling at CCB back in, it must be over a decade by now. His was a regional overview applying N-G to his situation IIRC, mine I tried building on Brian’s by applying AAR Car Service orders.  

I find nothing wrong in what Bruce wrote, or Steve Hile wrote or Tony wrote.

Again it is how close above the railhead that you are looking down from, which is why after Brian’s presentation, I called mine – Closer to the Railhead.

If in doubt or if one does not care to do a lot of research on your modeled environment, the N-G theory is like a set of good manners your mother asked you to use, it should cover you in many (but not all) situations.  

                                                                                         Jim Dick - Roseville, MN               


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tony Thompson
 

      I think it's very important to recognize that G-N is not an assertion but is based on data. It certainly works for the cases where it should work, though I sure wish we had lots more data for a more robust conclusion. I found it to work for conductor's time books on the SP Coast Route in 1948-1951, for example (as I reported in my blog).
       As others have observed, OF COURSE it does not work for everything. That's been demonstrated repeatedly. And as for home road car proportions, I would remind the dogmatists that railroads seemed to differ in this area. Conclusions on one railroad may well not apply to another, and of course that can be seasonal as well.
       To me, it's one more tool to help us choose more realistic freight car fleets.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





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