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Re: [EXTERNAL] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bill;

Oh, and sorry, the F28 was not technically a well hole, but just a well flat. The drooped side members and shallow well are confusing, but then again, this was PRR's first entry into a really heavy duty turbine/generator hauler with relatively high clearances, so they didn't do a complete depressed center type of design. They left that step until they decided to do the F29. The F37B were true well hole flats. The late F47 (not of interest to you) were convertible to partial well hole. The F25, which were coolest of all, some of which were converted to diagonal plate loaders, were partial "gridded" well holes, but also not true well hole flats.

Again, if you'd like to discuss further, or see pics, let me know!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 9:46 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question



Curious if anyone here has built or can comment on Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 issued by Funaro & Camerlengo? Was the F28 their most numerous well hole type?




Bill Welch


Re: Shorpy image origin & Pittsburgh scenes

Eric Hansmann
 

Schuyler picked one of my favorite Pittsburgh images to share. I was traveling and unable to respond with a comprehensive reply.

 

This Shorpy image is from the Detroit Publishing Collection in the Library of Congress. Here’s a link to the image on the LoC site where you can download a high quality 156 MB TIF file to review.

https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994020047/PP/

 

 

In a later post Rich Orr mentioned, “The photo is the P&LE freight house along Carson St and currently immediately northwest of Station Square the site of the former P&LE passenger station and corporate HQ.”

 

That is kind of correct. The freight cars in the foreground of that image are lined up for the freight house, but the shed is the passenger terminal. Here’s another image taken from a slightly different angle showing the relationship of the freight house and where it stood in comparison to the P&LE passenger terminal in the Teens. Again, you can use a dropdown menu here to download a high quality TIF file to review.

https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994007073/PP/

 

 

My overall favorite images are a group of four photos taken from Mount Washington that offer a glimpse of a nearly forgotten Pittsburgh. There have been many changes in the last 110 years.

https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994007074/PP/

 

 

These four images start at the Point where the Monongahela & Allegheny Rivers meet to form the Ohio River. In the foreground are the Kelly Wrought Iron operation and the Wabash bridge. The Wabash financed the original P&WV construction into Pittsburgh. The bridge accesses a stub passenger terminal and small freight terminal that were above street level. Beyond the Wabash bridge, we get a view of the PRR freight facilities located at the Point. A couple of large freight houses and team yard served the many retailers and wholesalers in downtown Pittsburgh. The Wabash also had a freight house associated with their downtown terminal. In the distant haze, just across the Allegheny River from the Point, the B&O and BR&P had a yard along the banks of the Allegheny. Two freight houses and two team yards were in close proximity, along with large warehouses for a few of the large local department stores (Kaufmann’s, Rosenbaum’s, and May-Stearn). Football and baseball stadiums occupy the area today, along with parking lots and newer buildings.

 

The second and third images of the set feature some freight cars on the foreground P&LE tracks. The last image looks southward down the Monongahela River valley. We see the P&LE team yard that was just across Smithfield Street from the P&LE terminal area. The bridge just beyond the team yard is the Panhandle Bridge of the PRR that connected tracks along the base of Mount Washington with the PRR passenger terminal. Just to the left of that bridge on the far bank of the Monongahela River is the B&O terminal. The passenger portion is closer to the distinctive lenticular truss Smithfield Street bridge. Note the structure with the very long roof closer to the PRR bridge. That is a B&O freight house. It has a few interior tracks for car loading and unloading. The white building just beyond the PRR bridge is a B&O warehouse and a team yard sits just beyond the warehouse.

 

Not quite seen in these photos are a couple of PRR freight facilities. The Try Street team yard was located just off of the approach to the Panhandle Bridge and sat near the base of the bluff behind the B&O freight house. The PRR line went into a short tunnel to access the passenger terminal at Grant & Liberty Streets, but there was a very large freight house along Grant Street just before the passenger terminal that was served by the line connecting with the Panhandle Bridge.

 

If anyone is scratching their head wondering why there were so many Pittsburgh freight facilities within a mile of each other, just remember that they were the UPS/FedEX delivery hubs of the day. This is where the goods arrived for local retailers and wholesalers. A variety of freight cars moved in and out of these places a couple times a day. And there were more PRR facilities on the other side of the Allegheny River, plus the produce yard in the Strip District.

 

Shorpy images just scratch the surface. Some exploration on the Library of Congress site can offer more detail. Diving into the Historic Pittsburgh digital archive will reveal more local images.

http://www.historicpittsburgh.org/

 

And the Pittsburgh Historic Maps site is an amazing interactive encounter.

http://peoplemaps.esri.com/pittsburgh/

 

 

I guess I should apologize for ruining the rest of Doc Denny’s week.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 3:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Shorpy image with railroads in the front.

 




http://www.shorpy.com/node/22446?size=_original#caption

 

 

Schuyler

 


 


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bill;

Let me know if you need some pics.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 11:22 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question



Bill, Folks,

The F29 and F33 are also available from F&C, as well as all 3 (F28. F29 and F33) being available from Railworks in brass in HO. In addition, extra trucks are available in brass if you wish to equip your F&C flat with brass trucks instead of the resin trucks in the kit.

Regards

Bruce




Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 5, 2017, at 10:19 AM, fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com <mailto:fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com> [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch


Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Bill Welch
 

However I should not try to count early in the day. The Tichy door is 5/6/5, NOT 5/5/5 as I said earlier.

I am going to look at the Bowser door too, I am trying to make better doors for my Atlas 1932 Erie and I-GN models.

Bill Welch


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill, Folks,

The F29 and F33 are also available from F&C, as well as all 3 (F28. F29 and F33) being available from Railworks in brass in HO.  In addition, extra trucks are available in brass if you wish to equip your F&C flat with brass trucks instead of the resin trucks in the kit.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 5, 2017, at 10:19 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch




Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bill Welch
 

Well having failed so far to make any substantive contribution to the GS build I have demonstrated I am not very reliable.

The F28 is attractive to me because it looks rather massive and busy. Bruce your message implies there are models for F29 and F33. Looks like I need to do more research.

Thank you Bruce and Rich.

Bill Welch


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

Having looked at the kit, this will be one of the easiest resin cars to build because it has something like 10 parts, but I’m SURE you’ll find room to improve the details.

That said, the F28 class consisted of just 2 cars so no, not even close to the most common.  Other cars with larger rosters included the FN (10), FNa (27), F25 (17?), F25a (6), F33 (10), and F37 (20).  

BTW, the PRRPro group is taking on the F28/F29/F33 as our first project for 2018, so that project will start january 1, 2018, if you’d like to join in.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 5, 2017, at 8:46 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Curious if anyone here has built or can comment on Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 issued by Funaro & Camerlengo? Was the F28 their most numerous well hole type?



Bill Welch






Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

There were only 2 PRR F28 flats.  

FNa - 27
F25 - 26
F33 - 16
FN - 10
all the others were less than 10

Rich Orr



F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bill Welch
 

Curious if anyone here has built or can comment on Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 issued by Funaro & Camerlengo? Was the F28 their most numerous well hole type?


Bill Welch



nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Great, thanks Ben, The Bowser single 6' door is a better door than the similar Tichy, and as Ben reminds us, it is not a molded-on door.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]"

 
Andy Carlson wrote:
"Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars)."



Ben Hom



Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Bryian Sones
 

Yes, Bill I think you are right. The Tichy door is the right one. It seems to match all the other refrences I have.

Thanks,
Bryian 


On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 6:00 AM, "Andy Carlson midcentury@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Bill said:
 
Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch







PRR X26 Youngstown doors

Andy Carlson
 

Bill Welch called the door posted yesterday as a 5/5/5. Ben Hom mentioned a splice witness line due to the PRR making up a pair of aux. doors from X28 cars donors to fit the 6' wide door opening.

This seemed odd to me, so I checked a photo on line of a real PRR X26, and it had Bill's 5/5/5-S Youngstown doors, and also with Ben's evidence of vertical door splicing.

The posted picture of the (Reading) USRA showed a 5/4/5-T door, so it is helpful to keep that in mind.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Benjamin Hom
 

Andy Carlson wrote:
"Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars)."



Ben Hom


Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bryian Sones
 

Yes, Bruce thanks, I 'm aware of it. It's not the only pic I was referencing from. The pic has the correct door, color and a close up shot of it. It was easier pic to identify the details.
I should have mention that before.

Bryian` 



On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 6:02 AM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Bryian,

FYI, the prototype photograph that you are modeling from is NOT a PRR X26.  If you do a little sleuthing, you will find that it is a USRA boxcar belonging to the Philadelphia and Reading (aka READING), number 5078, which is in the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Bryian Sones bryian.sones@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:




Hi All,

Trying to finish this car up and get it off my project list. Anyone offer the correct Youngstown door for this car?


Bryian






nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Somehow my response to Bill got stripped from my earlier email message. Here is what my response to Bill was.




Nitpicking is nothing to apologize for, Bill. Having said that, I think you need to look at that door's panel count again. Somehow you have added a phantom panel.


Pre-War Youngstown doors are executed wildly in HO. Some of the best are molded on (see the MDC 50' Pullman SS WP double door car and the Bowser X31 cars). Some of the many disappointments include the IMWX/RC doors from the '37 AAR box car. I have admired many of Al Westerfield's resin doors for decades. It would have been nice if Dan Hall of Southwest Scale doors made some pre-wars in his stellar fashion.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



.








Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bruce Smith
 

Bryian,

FYI, the prototype photograph that you are modeling from is NOT a PRR X26.  If you do a little sleuthing, you will find that it is a USRA boxcar belonging to the Philadelphia and Reading (aka READING), number 5078, which is in the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Bryian Sones bryian.sones@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:




Hi All,

Trying to finish this car up and get it off my project list. Anyone offer the correct Youngstown door for this car?


Bryian




nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

Bill said:
 
Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch





Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,
 
Photographic evidence, while appropriate for the presence of cars, is not the type of evidence that can be used to support or refute the N-G model because it says nothing about the proportion (with the oft debated exception of yard photos, which may or may not reflect the in service proportions).

The problem with your assumption with respect to gondolas is that, given the PRR’s huge fleet of gondolas, it is absolutely expected that some would arrive on the left coast.  The question would be for example, would you see a ration of RR gondolas to ATSF or UP gondolas that mimicked the national numbers on the SP?  I’d like to see conductors books or train records that confirm this before I believe that gondolas follow the N-G model.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 4, 2017, at 9:27 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce

You say, but I disagree. I have enough pictures of PRR gondolas in California,
Montana and the west to convince myself that they were found in proportion to
their population. Of course, since there were not many loads available for them
in California, they tended to go home quickly. But that does NOT change the
model at all. Do the math. The Southern Pacific owned a tiny number of mill
gondolas compared to its entire fleet, and you would be very unlikely to see
one in Pennsylvania, simply because they were incredibly rare compared to the
PRR's fleet. Heck, they were rare in SP freight trains too!

Tim O'Connor



And with all that, you got it wrong? :)  The N-G model does NOT apply to mill gondolas.  They are regional in distribution.  Flat cars do conform to the N-G model, at least for some periods.

Bruce Smith




Re: PRR X26 boxcar Youngstown door in HO Scale

Benjamin Hom
 

Bill Welch wrote:
"Sorry to nitpick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic."

While we're at it, a weld seam needs to be added to the door as it was made from two auxiliary doors salvaged from Class X28 automobile cars during their conversion to Class X28A boxcars.


Ben Hom 


Re: PRR x26 boxcar Youngs town door in Ho Scale

Bill Welch
 

Sorry to nick pick but by my count this is a 5/5/5 door and is Tichy part #3018. To my eye the Atlas 1932 doors are anemic.

Bill Welch

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