Date   

Re: The G-N Distribution Model

anthony wagner
 

Don't forget B&O's thousands of box cars. Tony Wagner


On Tuesday, September 5, 2017 2:23 PM, "'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
I’ll save you the trouble of looking up the yogurt:
 
[QUOTE]
I have countered numerous times that 1) one train does not make a sample and 2) the distribution hypothesis has nothing whatsoever to say about the composition of a single train. I will fall back, once again, on my Yoplait Yogurt in the shopping car example: I do not purchase Yoplait at regular prices (tho my daughter may slip in one or two when I'm not looking); However when they are half off I [buy] a whole lot of them. The composition of my carts therefore varies considerably when examined individually but the average number of yoplaits I buy over numerous trips is probably pretty constant over time if enough trips are recorded and analyzed.
[END QUOTE]
 
I presume that in the 6 years since Dave posted the above, he has consumed a large quantity of yogurt.
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff
 
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 10:03 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] The G-N Distribution Model
 
 
One of the problems people seem to have in accepting the theory is in the
failure to understand that average does not mean instance. I recommend a
search in the archives for the word yogurt (possibly Yoplait yoghurt),
There should be two hits, one from me and a reply from Tony. Please find
and read.

Basically a single train will never conform to the average. It takes 20-30
real freight trains to conform to the average. How many times do you move
1200-2000 cars across your model railroad? So let's get rea herel: FIRST,
not everybody on the list is a model railroader moving 12-18 car trains.
Some of us are historians. Me for instance. The theory is about real
railroads, not model railroads. SECOND, A few of us use simulators where
60-80 car consists moving across a 100 mile district are the norm. Me for
instance. Which is to say I can apply the theory quite directly because my
choice of expressing historical railroading has no compression in its
representation whereas physical model railroaders are faced with huge
compression requirements and so cannot do a dozen whole 60-80 car consists.

What physical model railroaders can do is make reference to the theory when
making purchases so they're not too overloaded with the arcane AND give some
consideration in the planning stages of how one might cycle cars on and off
their layout so as to achieve greater variability in the arcane because they
do show up.

Dave Nelson



Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tim O'Connor
 


Dennis, you've hit on an important point I also tried to make. To properly
model prototypical freight car movements, you need a LOT of excess freight
cars. "Randomness" is what you are describing, not chaos. In a truly random
distribution, all possible outcomes (composition of freight cars in your yard
on a particular day) are EQUALLY LIKELY. (The number of possible outcomes is
astronomically large.)

It is only over time, with MANY samples, that the G-N distribution is perceived
to be true. So from a modeling perspective, if you choose to model ONE DAY in
the life of a railroad, it literally doesn't matter what cars you choose to use.
The fact that those twelve PRR cars only occur once in 10,000 days* should not be
an impediment to modeling at all. You just happened to choose THAT day. :-)

Tim O'

* swag



Dennis Storzek wrote

The G-N distribution statistical study is certainly worthwhile in the quest for absolute truth, but long ago I decided that I'd stick with Chaos Theory instead. Not really a true example, it is a catchy name, and suits well enough. It basically says you need a large sample, over a long period, to see the G-N distribution. Therefore, the cars visible on my layout THIS DAY are not a large enough sample, and the consist of just one train is even less so.

So, although the G-N distribution predicts there should be five PRR boxcars in my yard, and there happen to be twelve, it doesn't much bother me... if you want to see something closer to the predicted distribution, you'll just have to come back tomorrow... of course, it's never tomorrow on my layout.


Mountain States RPM

Blaine
 

Railroad prototype modeler meets have finally come to the Intermountain Area! This Saturday! 

Connect with friends and fellow prototype modelers at the only prototype modeling meet in the Intermountain West. Enrich your skills by interacting over detailed models and content-driven presentations. Nationally recognized historians and modelers. Clinicians from Washington, California and Utah: Rick Selby will present on Per Diem boxcars; Brian Rutherford will present 'Modeling from Prototype Inspiration: The WP and the Inside Gateway.' Kevin Packard will share tips and tricks for photorealistic weathering with a live presentation. Jere Ingram will present an introduction to modular signal systems. Blaine Hadfield will give an executive overview of ExactRail from its origins to the present. 

Railfan the historic trans-con from the machine shop and roundhouse. Shop at Spring Creek Trains. Meet with Canon & Company's David Hussey and see his amazing line of parts and boxcar kits. The Union Pacific Historical Society will be in attendance, and Scale Trains will have a display table of future releases. Enjoy our barbecue on the patio. Raffle Prizes from Intermountain, Kadee, ScaleTrains, ExactRail, and Tangent. Fellowship. 

Bring your models! There is no cost to display. There are no contests. 

Mountain States RPM is at the historic Evanston Roundhouse & Machine Shop (1500 Main st.) in Evanston Wyoming. Doors open at 9:00 a.m. on Saturday, September 9th. The raffle begins at 5:15 p.m. See our Facebook page Mountain States RPM for more information. 

Admission is $20.00. Kids under 13 are free with paid adult admission. 

We can't wait to see you there! 

Blaine Hadfield, 
Mountain States RPM



Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote :


[QUOTE]

I have countered numerous times that 1) one train does not make a sample and 2) the distribution hypothesis has nothing whatsoever to say about the composition of a single train. I will fall back, once again, on my Yoplait Yogurt in the shopping car example: I do not purchase Yoplait at regular prices (tho my daughter may slip in one or two when I'm not looking); However when they are half off I [buy] a whole lot of them. The composition of my carts therefore varies considerably when examined individually but the average number of yoplaits I buy over numerous trips is probably pretty constant over time if enough trips are recorded and analyzed.

[END QUOTE]

============================

You mean the whole Yoplait thing is just about yogurt? I must have missed the original discussion six years ago, but when I saw that phrase, I was sure the point was how the much studied FREQUENCY OF LETTERS of English language texts predicts a "consist" far different from that trade name. After all, the most common NP boxcar, no, wait, I mean the letter E, is entirely missing, yet the phrase  has two Ys and a P, letters that are hardly common. The "consist" of that trade name is just entirely wrong.


The G-N distribution statistical study is certainly worthwhile in the quest for absolute truth, but long ago I decided that I'd stick with Chaos Theory instead. Not really a true example, it is a catchy name, and suits well enough. It basically says you need a large sample, over a long period, to see the G-N distribution. Therefore, the cars visible on my layout THIS DAY are not a large enough sample, and the consist of just one train is even less so. 


So, although the G-N distribution predicts there should be five PRR boxcars in my yard, and there happen to be twelve, it doesn't much bother me... if you want to see something closer to the predicted distribution, you'll just have to come back tomorrow... of course, it's never tomorrow on my layout.


There are those people who take the G-N distribution even farther, breaking down the composition of each road's fleet into classes, and stating that the road's representation on the layout should match. That's all well and good, if that's what they want to do. For those of us who don't build resin (and I haven't built resin for years, I'm very sensitive to CA and got tired of walking around with perpetual sniffles), Chaos Theory offers an out. No doubt those five PRR cars predicted to be in the yard should be from four different classes, but if they happen to be five nice injection molded X29s, I don't let it bother me... that's just the way it is, on this particular day. Tomorrow will be different, but, of course, tomorrow will never come.


Dennis Storzek


Re: dry transfer lettring

thmsdmpsy
 

I'm still working on it, maybe a reliable printer soon.  Tom Dempsey



From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] dry transfer lettring

 
Lester

That set has long been on my "I wish I'd bought a couple more sets" list!
The 9601-11 and 9601-21 are excellent for making up freight car lettering.
And Dry Transfers are the way to go for composing whole words or large numbers.

Tim O'Connor



Review of the Clover House website shows the old alphabet Railroad Roman Combined condensed bold -white dry transfer lettering set, number 9600-11, which had 1/32", 3/64",1/16" and 3/32" letters and numbers is no longer available.  Excellent to make up car end lettering decals and changing numbers.  Has  anyone found another manufacture for a source for this style lettering?

Lester Breuer



Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Aley, Jeff A
 

I’ll save you the trouble of looking up the yogurt:

 

[QUOTE]

I have countered numerous times that 1) one train does not make a sample and 2) the distribution hypothesis has nothing whatsoever to say about the composition of a single train. I will fall back, once again, on my Yoplait Yogurt in the shopping car example: I do not purchase Yoplait at regular prices (tho my daughter may slip in one or two when I'm not looking); However when they are half off I [buy] a whole lot of them. The composition of my carts therefore varies considerably when examined individually but the average number of yoplaits I buy over numerous trips is probably pretty constant over time if enough trips are recorded and analyzed.

[END QUOTE]

 

I presume that in the 6 years since Dave posted the above, he has consumed a large quantity of yogurt.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 10:03 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] The G-N Distribution Model

 

 

One of the problems people seem to have in accepting the theory is in the
failure to understand that average does not mean instance. I recommend a
search in the archives for the word yogurt (possibly Yoplait yoghurt),
There should be two hits, one from me and a reply from Tony. Please find
and read.

Basically a single train will never conform to the average. It takes 20-30
real freight trains to conform to the average. How many times do you move
1200-2000 cars across your model railroad? So let's get rea herel: FIRST,
not everybody on the list is a model railroader moving 12-18 car trains.
Some of us are historians. Me for instance. The theory is about real
railroads, not model railroads. SECOND, A few of us use simulators where
60-80 car consists moving across a 100 mile district are the norm. Me for
instance. Which is to say I can apply the theory quite directly because my
choice of expressing historical railroading has no compression in its
representation whereas physical model railroaders are faced with huge
compression requirements and so cannot do a dozen whole 60-80 car consists.

What physical model railroaders can do is make reference to the theory when
making purchases so they're not too overloaded with the arcane AND give some
consideration in the planning stages of how one might cycle cars on and off
their layout so as to achieve greater variability in the arcane because they
do show up.

Dave Nelson


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bill;

Also, IIRC, the HO trucks (2F-F2 and later 2F-F3 (both "Buckeye", but different load limits) were bagged under the Crown Custom Products label, as well.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 2:11 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question



Bill,

Railworks has been out of business for many years, but these cars and trucks show up on eBay and at the PRRT&HS annual meeting with some frequency.

Regards

Bruce




Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

Blockedhttps://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 5, 2017, at 11:03 AM, fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com <mailto:fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com> [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



Based on Rich's tabulation it seems like the F33 would be a better choice. I just did search for Railworks and did not find anything relevant. Are the brass trucks from Railwoarks?

Bill Welch


Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;

There was a lot of discussion about this before the RP CYC article came out, and yes, there were a LOT of different doors on the X26 after the rebuilds: "new" Y-town doors, ex-X28 splices, Carbuilder splices, reinforced and rebuilt wooden doors, and some doors I have never see another example of. If there was a greater reason to say, "work from a photo", I cannot imagine.

Are we talking about THIS door?

http://digital.hagley.org/PRR_09897?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=58a30c6e456023b4f893&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0

Anyway, I will be doing more digging on this as the PRR box car thing unfolds, and I will let you know what I find.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 12:38 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale



I hate to be contrarian, and Ben has corrected me before, but the X26 photos I have available show most commonly the 5/4/5 door as on the USRA car in Bryian's photo.

38333, 45466, 46096, 46511, 540176, 564311, 565081 all have 5/4/5 doors without evidence of welded halves.

I also have 45927 with a 7 panel Superior door, and 45939 with a 3 panel door like the X29 with well defined welded halves.

I don't have any X26 photos with any other type of Youngstown door, although I do not doubt anyone's reporting of such doors.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tim O'Connor
 


LOL - so noted, Tony!

If I were writing the software (I did at one time, but the club hated it,
preferring their old non-random consists that simply turn around in the staging
yard and come back the same way, over and over again) I would add WEIGHT to the
random selection based on the Home District rules, and home road vs foreign cars.
It would be highly realistic. And therefore hated by club members. :-) Of course
it goes without saying that clubs do not follow the G-N model for their fleets.

Tim O'


Tim O'Connor wrote:

If your layout really takes AAR rules seriously (as it should) then your car cards and waybills should reflect the AAR "Home Districts" so that every car LOADED in your district(s) complies with the rules.

Good advice, Tim -- but in the 1950 era, AAR surveys showed that only about 70% of cars were loaded in accord with the Car Service Rules. I would suggest that SLAVISH adherence to those Rules is therefore unrealistic.

Tony Thompson 


Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

Bruce Smith
 

Bill,

Railworks has  been out of business for many years, but these cars and trucks show up on eBay and at the PRRT&HS annual meeting with some frequency.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 5, 2017, at 11:03 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Based on Rich's tabulation it seems like the F33 would be a better choice. I just did search for Railworks and did not find anything relevant. Are the brass trucks from Railwoarks?

Bill Welch




Re: dry transfer lettring

Tim O'Connor
 

Lester

That set has long been on my "I wish I'd bought a couple more sets" list!
The 9601-11 and 9601-21 are excellent for making up freight car lettering.
And Dry Transfers are the way to go for composing whole words or large numbers.

Tim O'Connor



Review of the Clover House website shows the old alphabet Railroad Roman Combined condensed bold -white dry transfer lettering set, number 9600-11, which had 1/32", 3/64",1/16" and 3/32" letters and numbers is no longer available.  Excellent to make up car end lettering decals and changing numbers.  Has  anyone found another manufacture for a source for this style lettering?

Lester Breuer


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

If your layout really takes AAR rules seriously (as it should) then your car cards and waybills should reflect the AAR "Home Districts" so that every car LOADED in your district(s) complies with the rules.


  Good advice, Tim -- but in the 1950 era, AAR surveys showed that only about 70% of cars were loaded in accord with the Car Service Rules. I would suggest that SLAVISH adherence to those Rules is therefore unrealistic.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tim O'Connor
 

Bruce

In the absence of a 1% sample of millions of conductor's books, I prefer simple logic.

XM box cars and GB gondolas followed AAR rules for reloading almost all of the time.
As a result, they could end up almost anywhere for large railroads. For example, a PRR
car could be loaded in San Diego, California with a load for Bemidji, Minnesota, and be
in perfect compliance with all of the AAR rules. From Minnesota, it could be sent empty
to Iowa to be loaded for Tampa, Florida - again, in 100% compliance with the rules. This
is exactly why the famous Monon #1 left home and was not seen again on home rails for so
long.

Of course for layout operations, one must calculate the need for such cars for incoming
loads and outgoing loads. And take into account the time period, in which some Car Service
Directive may have been in force. A CSD is a formal exception to the AAR rules but applies
only for a specific time period.

If your layout really takes AAR rules seriously (as it should) then your car cards and
waybills should reflect the AAR "Home Districts" so that every car LOADED in your district(s)
complies with the rules.

Tim O'Connor



I'd like to see conductors books or train records that confirm this before I believe that gondolas follow the N-G model.

Bruce F. Smith           


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Tim O'Connor
 


  And Second, over time, you'll notice that the percentages of
  cars follow the G-N model. QED.

I don't think that is necessarily true.
Schuyler


Well, as you said, you didn't take any probability, or statistics.
And that is why you think that. It's like any science - true whether
you "believe it" or not.

Tim O'Connor


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Dave Nelson
 

One of the problems people seem to have in accepting the theory is in the
failure to understand that average does not mean instance. I recommend a
search in the archives for the word yogurt (possibly Yoplait yoghurt),
There should be two hits, one from me and a reply from Tony. Please find
and read.

Basically a single train will never conform to the average. It takes 20-30
real freight trains to conform to the average. How many times do you move
1200-2000 cars across your model railroad? So let's get rea herel: FIRST,
not everybody on the list is a model railroader moving 12-18 car trains.
Some of us are historians. Me for instance. The theory is about real
railroads, not model railroads. SECOND, A few of us use simulators where
60-80 car consists moving across a 100 mile district are the norm. Me for
instance. Which is to say I can apply the theory quite directly because my
choice of expressing historical railroading has no compression in its
representation whereas physical model railroaders are faced with huge
compression requirements and so cannot do a dozen whole 60-80 car consists.

What physical model railroaders can do is make reference to the theory when
making purchases so they're not too overloaded with the arcane AND give some
consideration in the planning stages of how one might cycle cars on and off
their layout so as to achieve greater variability in the arcane because they
do show up.

Dave Nelson


Re: The G-N Distribution Model

Aley, Jeff A
 

Schuyler,

 

               A couple of points – the G-N model only applies to free-roaming cars (think “plain boxcars”).  Not bottle cars, not hoppers, not reefers.  Not even boxcars in Pool service (auto parts?).  For those, you may develop the “Larrabee Distribution Model”.

 

               The G-N model only applies to Foreign-Road cars.  The home road is a whole ‘nuther thing.

 

               What I conclude from the model (given that I model the UP mainline in Kansas), is that I actually do need X29’s and NYC and C&O boxcars, even though Kansas is a long ways from those RR’s territories.  And the proportions of those cars on my model RR should reflect their proportions in the national fleet.  I shouldn’t have 1 X29 with 37 MKT boxcars – the regional bias just ain’t so.  Maybe a particular train would have that variation, but my overall stash of cars should not.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 6:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] The G-N Distribution Model

 

 

Well, thank you Bruce. Yes, you did this in one
sentence. And then instantly provided multiple
"excepts."

And while I think this is a logical extension of
the fact that freight cars are free-rolling, can
be assigned anywhere, look at the trek of the
Monon 1 as an example, on any given day, in any
given train, you can see any given railroad's
freight cars . . . I don't quite believe it.
Sorry. Sorry I asked.

This would suggest that in a train on, for
example, the NP you could, on average, over time,
see the sane, or very nearly the same, consist
makeup as say, on the Southern. Or the UP, Or
the D&H. Or the Rutland, the MEC, the NH, the
M&StL, the CGW, the AA, the NKP, the C&O, the SP .
. .

No wonder Brock obsesses about some damned hopper
going over some hill out west. 8^)

Maybe. But I have a bit of a hard time believing
that the consists of freight trains could be that
homogeneous across the country as that. And that
it would be a good way to establish the mix of
cars you have on your model of the XYZ railroad,
because that's what the G-N Distribution Model
says.

I can easily see how quickly that would get skewed
for any one railroad overall, never mind in
specific areas of a particular road. And I
suppose that's just one of the "excepts."

The ERIE had traffic between steel mills and
rolling mills around Youngstown. So if I were to
be modeling the Youngstown area (it would take a
gymnasium to model that!) I'd need hot metal
bottle cars, as well as more gons than I want to
think about. Plus a lot of hoppers, most likely
from eastern roads. Yeah, well, that's an
"except."

The ERIE had a tremendous produce and fruit market
to serve in NYC, so there were reefer blocks,
solid reefer trains, from Chicago to NYC (with a
few diverted to other eastern cities). I'll need
a lot of reefers. Yeah, well, that's a "except."

Maybe other than those "excepts," the composition
of the general freight pool for the rest of the
trains running over the entire line of the ERIE
might conform to the G-N Distribution Model, but I
am not even so sure of that. It seems to me that
there must have been some level of regional
skewing.

I must say that the responses I've seen from
long-time list members that amount to "weren't you
paying attention?" and offers to send me 1500 of
these emails and also 100 or so from someone else
so I can figure it out for myself certainly don't
reflect the usual level of "here, let me help you
with that" that it typical of this list. I think
the Claus is in much the same boat as I am, which
in effect is "what are you guys talking about?
Please educate me, and put this in an easily
understood form that I can go back to and think
about for my own purposes."

In my first post with this subject line, I asked:
"But is the G-N Model neatly summarized anywhere?"
I'm sorry Bruce, but your one sentence summary
doesn't quite get me there.

Schuyler

From: STMFC@...
[mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 6:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The G-N Distribution Model

Schuyler,

Yes. Repeatedly. In the archives. But to make it
simple, here it is, again:

Boxcars from any given railroad appear on any
other railroad at the same frequency as they occur
in the national pool.

That's it. Really pretty simple. Note that it does
not govern the frequency of home road cars, or the
frequency of cars in individual trains, but the
overall frequency of foreign road box cars.
Several caveats deal with cars in assigned or pool
service, branch lines in the middle of nowhere,
yada, yada, yada... but the essence is very pure
and simple.

Regards

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

_____

From: STMFC@...
<STMFC@...> on behalf of 'Schuyler
Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]
<STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 5:21 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] The G-N Distribution Model

Gize,

I wasn't very interested in the Gilbert-Nelson
Distribution Model when it was being developed. I
didn't have a layout then (still don't, but maybe
. . .) so I satisfied my Freight Car building
urges by building kits that struck my eyes as
being interesting. Since those times I've settled
(more or less) on modeling the ERIE in the 1950-52
time frame, and thus the G-N Model has become of
more interest to me.

But is the G-N Model neatly summarized anywhere?

And where might I find that?

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Hoxie wrote:
"I hate to be contrarian, and Ben has corrected me before, but the X26 photos I have available show most commonly the 5/4/5 door as on the USRA car in Bryian's photo.

38333, 45466, 46096, 46511, 540176, 564311, 565081 all have 5/4/5 doors without evidence of welded halves.

I also have 45927 with a 7 panel Superior door, and 45939 with a 3 panel door like the X29 with well defined welded halves.

I don't have any X26 photos with any other type of Youngstown door, although I do not doubt anyone's reporting of such doors."

I don't doubt that Class X26 cars received new Youngstown or Superior doors as the number of X26 exceeded the total number of source doors from the Class X28A conversion program.  Let's go inside the numbers:

- 5000 Class X28 were built; of these, 1000 had Youngstown doors, the rest 3-panel steel doors.
- So assuming all cars were rebuilt (they weren't due to wreck losses, but all survivors were rebuilt), enough replacement auxiliary doors would be salvaged to equip a total of 2500 Class X26 boxcars, including enough Youngstown doors for 500 cars.
- PRR acquired a total of 9900 Class X26 boxcars.  Even accounting for the fact that not all cars were upgraded, the demand for additional doors for the upgraded cars would outstrip the supply of salvaged doors from the Class X28 automobile cars, so some cars would have received new doors from other sources.


Ben Hom


nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

Andy Carlson
 

I simply searched for "PRR X26 Box Car" and the first good prototype view was of PRR #564287, a B&W vintage view (The sheathing was in good condition).

That car had the pre-war Youngstown 5/5/5-s door with Ben Hom's vertical down the middle seam very much in evidence. I can forward the picture to anyone who wants it. To me, it looks just like the Bowser single 6' door from the X31.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA



From: "stevehprr@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] nitpicking PRR x26 boxcar Youngstown doors in HO Scale

 
I hate to be contrarian, and Ben has corrected me before, but the X26 photos I have available show most commonly the 5/4/5 door as on the USRA car in Bryian's photo.

38333, 45466, 46096, 46511, 540176, 564311, 565081 all have 5/4/5 doors without evidence of welded halves.

I also have 45927 with a 7 panel Superior door, and 45939 with a 3 panel door like the X29 with well defined welded halves.

I don't have any X26 photos with any other type of Youngstown door, although I do not doubt anyone's reporting of such doors.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



Re: F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

gary laakso
 

The July, 2010 issue of RMC has an article by Kris Kollar on modeling the F 33 using the F&C kit and it includes modifying the trucks.

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 9:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] F&C's Pennsylvania F28 Well Hole Flat Car kit #8450 question

 

 

Based on Rich's tabulation it seems like the F33 would be a better choice. I just did search for Railworks and did not find anything relevant. Are the brass trucks from Railwoarks?

 

Bill Welch


Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Shorpy image origin & Pittsburgh scenes

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Eric, Schuyler and all;

I also love these images, one reason being the variety of freight cars and other great city features visible. One can see Pennsylvania Lines, Erie, NYC, DL&W, of course many P&LE, WM, NO&NE, NP, an ACL ventilated car, MC, Canadian Northern, "Hocking valley", PMcK&Y, Merchants Despatch, and others these tired old eyes can't read, but also the old B&O station downtown, the sternwheeler warehouses, the Lorena, the Pacific No.2, and all the old wooden coal barges, and all the great downtown buildings. There are the old P&LE truss rod passenger cars alongside the shed, and even milk cans on the platform at right. I LOVE these old pics!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2017 11:52 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [STMFC] Shorpy image origin & Pittsburgh scenes



Schuyler picked one of my favorite Pittsburgh images to share. I was traveling and unable to respond with a comprehensive reply.



This Shorpy image is from the Detroit Publishing Collection in the Library of Congress. Here's a link to the image on the LoC site where you can download a high quality 156 MB TIF file to review.

Blockedhttps://www.loc.gov/item/det1994020047/PP/





In a later post Rich Orr mentioned, "The photo is the P&LE freight house along Carson St and currently immediately northwest of Station Square the site of the former P&LE passenger station and corporate HQ."



That is kind of correct. The freight cars in the foreground of that image are lined up for the freight house, but the shed is the passenger terminal. Here's another image taken from a slightly different angle showing the relationship of the freight house and where it stood in comparison to the P&LE passenger terminal in the Teens. Again, you can use a dropdown menu here to download a high quality TIF file to review.

Blockedhttps://www.loc.gov/item/det1994007073/PP/





My overall favorite images are a group of four photos taken from Mount Washington that offer a glimpse of a nearly forgotten Pittsburgh. There have been many changes in the last 110 years.

Blockedhttps://www.loc.gov/item/det1994007074/PP/





These four images start at the Point where the Monongahela & Allegheny Rivers meet to form the Ohio River. In the foreground are the Kelly Wrought Iron operation and the Wabash bridge. The Wabash financed the original P&WV construction into Pittsburgh. The bridge accesses a stub passenger terminal and small freight terminal that were above street level. Beyond the Wabash bridge, we get a view of the PRR freight facilities located at the Point. A couple of large freight houses and team yard served the many retailers and wholesalers in downtown Pittsburgh. The Wabash also had a freight house associated with their downtown terminal. In the distant haze, just across the Allegheny River from the Point, the B&O and BR&P had a yard along the banks of the Allegheny. Two freight houses and two team yards were in close proximity, along with large warehouses for a few of the large local department stores (Kaufmann's, Rosenbaum's, and May-Stearn). Football and baseball stadiums occupy the area today, along with parking lots and newer buildings.



The second and third images of the set feature some freight cars on the foreground P&LE tracks. The last image looks southward down the Monongahela River valley. We see the P&LE team yard that was just across Smithfield Street from the P&LE terminal area. The bridge just beyond the team yard is the Panhandle Bridge of the PRR that connected tracks along the base of Mount Washington with the PRR passenger terminal. Just to the left of that bridge on the far bank of the Monongahela River is the B&O terminal. The passenger portion is closer to the distinctive lenticular truss Smithfield Street bridge. Note the structure with the very long roof closer to the PRR bridge. That is a B&O freight house. It has a few interior tracks for car loading and unloading. The white building just beyond the PRR bridge is a B&O warehouse and a team yard sits just beyond the warehouse.



Not quite seen in these photos are a couple of PRR freight facilities. The Try Street team yard was located just off of the approach to the Panhandle Bridge and sat near the base of the bluff behind the B&O freight house. The PRR line went into a short tunnel to access the passenger terminal at Grant & Liberty Streets, but there was a very large freight house along Grant Street just before the passenger terminal that was served by the line connecting with the Panhandle Bridge.



If anyone is scratching their head wondering why there were so many Pittsburgh freight facilities within a mile of each other, just remember that they were the UPS/FedEX delivery hubs of the day. This is where the goods arrived for local retailers and wholesalers. A variety of freight cars moved in and out of these places a couple times a day. And there were more PRR facilities on the other side of the Allegheny River, plus the produce yard in the Strip District.



Shorpy images just scratch the surface. Some exploration on the Library of Congress site can offer more detail. Diving into the Historic Pittsburgh digital archive will reveal more local images.

Blockedhttp://www.historicpittsburgh.org/



And the Pittsburgh Historic Maps site is an amazing interactive encounter.

Blockedhttp://peoplemaps.esri.com/pittsburgh/





I guess I should apologize for ruining the rest of Doc Denny's week.





Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

























________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2017 3:58 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Shorpy image with railroads in the front.








Blockedhttp://www.shorpy.com/node/22446?size=_original#caption





Schuyler

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