Date   

Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Kenneth Schanz
 

Excellent book documenting the efforts to deal with the U-boat activity early in WWII would be "Torpedo Junction" by Homer Hickam.

Ken Schanz


On Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:14 PM, "Ben Heinley bheinley@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
German U-boats were already sinking oil tankers in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Atlantic coast.  People could see them burning from shore,  Most people were very jumpy about sabotage and if the guard came across hobos along the tracks,  he would not know if they were actually hobos or German a spies, especially at night.

Ben Heinley

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
In June of 1942, 8 German saboteurs were landed by submarine, 4 on Long Island and 4 in Florida.  They were only caught because one of them decided he was loyal to the US and turned the others in. ​Even before that, the US was on heightened state of alert, but the alert level went up even more afterwards.  Most strategic targets such as bridges, were guarded by US Army or National Guard troops, but others, such as this guard, were also armed as a sort of "home guard".  The weapon may likely be a personal firearm and not company or government issue weapon.

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Aw: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 


Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
An: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 
Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/ owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 






Re: Careful with the captions

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/17/2017 8:56 AM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:
But it really is an excellent shot of the hoses used for loading or unloading ICC 105-type tank cars through the bonnet valving.

    So when empty the tank would still be under a low pressure with vapor?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Careful with the captions

Tony Thompson
 

John Barry wrote:

 
While I believe that the date, and other info is correct, and the refinery may even produce AVGAS, I don't think that is the product flowing into this tank car.  Last time I checked, AVGAS was a liquid and shipped in AAR class TM or TMI tanks with expansion domes.  The liquid fuel did (and still does in future times like now) expand and contract with the ambient temperature.  What I see in this photo though is some kind of transfer to or from a pressurized tank where the worked is manipulating the valves protected by a "bonnet".  Note the small diameter of the "dome" and its flanged construction.  Then there is the the hardware on the hoses connecting to the tank, the one has a round dial that looks like a pressure gauge, not something that you would see on a liquid transfer at atmospheric pressure.  

     I agree with John. This is not an AvGas tank car, much more likely propane (before it was tagged as LPG). But it really is an excellent shot of the hoses used for loading or unloading ICC 105-type tank cars through the bonnet valving. In fact, I used this same John Vachon photo in a recent blog post explaining how tank cars like this are unloaded. Here's a link if you are interested:


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Careful with the captions

John Barry
 

While generally correct, sometimes you have to take the OWI captions on the LOC collection with a grain of salt.  Case in point is the following:

While I believe that the date, and other info is correct, and the refinery may even produce AVGAS, I don't think that is the product flowing into this tank car.  Last time I checked, AVGAS was a liquid and shipped in AAR class TM or TMI tanks with expansion domes.  The liquid fuel did (and still does in future times like now) expand and contract with the ambient temperature.  What I see in this photo though is some kind of transfer to or from a pressurized tank where the worked is manipulating the valves protected by a "bonnet".  Note the small diameter of the "dome" and its flanged construction.  Then there is the the hardware on the hoses connecting to the tank, the one has a round dial that looks like a pressure gauge, not something that you would see on a liquid transfer at atmospheric pressure.  

Hyperbole for the war effort aside, it's still a great shot of WWII railroading, as are the other photos in the collection.
 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

We're getting away from freight cars, but I will risk adding one comment to this discussion. Some of the tunnels and likely bridges on the WP in the Feather River Canyon had little wooden guard shacks added during the war years. When I railfanned the WP in the 1970s
photographing FREIGHT CARS, the ruins of a few of these were still visible.

Now back to our regularly scheduled FREIGHT CAR content.

Yours Aye,


Garth

On 9/16/17 9:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

In June of 1942, 8 German saboteurs were landed by submarine, 4 on Long Island and 4 in Florida.  They were only caught because one of them decided he was loyal to the US and turned the others in. ​Even before that, the US was on heightened state of alert, but the alert level went up even more afterwards.  Most strategic targets such as bridges, were guarded by US Army or National Guard troops, but others, such as this guard, were also armed as a sort of "home guard".  The weapon may likely be a personal firearm and not company or government issue weapon.


Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL



From: STMFC@... on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Aw: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 


Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]"
An: STMFC
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 





Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

benjamin
 

German U-boats were already sinking oil tankers in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Atlantic coast.  People could see them burning from shore,  Most people were very jumpy about sabotage and if the guard came across hobos along the tracks,  he would not know if they were actually hobos or German a spies, especially at night.

Ben Heinley

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

In June of 1942, 8 German saboteurs were landed by submarine, 4 on Long Island and 4 in Florida.  They were only caught because one of them decided he was loyal to the US and turned the others in. ​Even before that, the US was on heightened state of alert, but the alert level went up even more afterwards.  Most strategic targets such as bridges, were guarded by US Army or National Guard troops, but others, such as this guard, were also armed as a sort of "home guard".  The weapon may likely be a personal firearm and not company or government issue weapon.


Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL



From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Aw: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 


Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
An: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 





How Long to Load/Unload a Tank Car?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,
  One of Claus's pictures was of a cut of tank cars being
loaded (unloaded?)  that were blue flagged.  I've always
understood the meaning of those flaggings ... but I've
never known/learned "how long did it take to load/unload
a 10k tank car?".
  I notice, for instance, that in the picture that Claus posted
the link to there are no "workers" in the pic (at least none
that I noticed/picked out).  Presumably the loading process
took considerable time.  And had an automatic "shut off"?
- Jim B.


Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Bruce Smith
 

In June of 1942, 8 German saboteurs were landed by submarine, 4 on Long Island and 4 in Florida.  They were only caught because one of them decided he was loyal to the US and turned the others in. ​Even before that, the US was on heightened state of alert, but the alert level went up even more afterwards.  Most strategic targets such as bridges, were guarded by US Army or National Guard troops, but others, such as this guard, were also armed as a sort of "home guard".  The weapon may likely be a personal firearm and not company or government issue weapon.


Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL



From: STMFC@... on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:47 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Aw: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 


Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]"
An: STMFC
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 




More images in this great collection

Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;)
 

Hi List Members,

More images in this great collection.

Great Northern Railroad yards, cars of iron ore passing over the scales

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044528/PP/

Views of G&SI (Gulf and Ship Island) boxcars 3218 and 3237. Suggest you download the 19MB TIF files for improved resolution.

https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994012015/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994012016/PP/

LUX 159 tank car

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001011890/PP/

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Oil tank car. The tank diameter looks really big on this multi-compartment car.

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001013338/PP/

I-GN tank car

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001026379/PP/

GN passenger car (mixed in with STMCF's, of course)

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1998004928/PP/

A few Phillips tank cars

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014220/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014184/PP/


Coal going to Jones Laughlin steel plant. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hard to tell for sure, but the hoppers may carry J&L reporting marks.

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000043599/PP/



Freight car and flour mill, Minneapolis, Minnesota. NP 11760 and GN 5122 boxcars

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004753/PP/


Freeport Sulphur Company hoppers

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028342/PP/


Hoppers in Sulphur service, what a conversation piece that would make as a load!

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028312/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028419/PP/


GN cabooses

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997005249/PP/


Automobile car loading - notice unusual wheel chocks

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004917/PP/


PM and L&N boxcars

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028359/PP/

Wichita, Kansas. Oil tank cars

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000040527/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000040526/PP/

NYC flat (497811 maybe)

https://www.loc.gov/item/npc2008009258/

UTLX tank car

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001022985/PP/

UTLX 98060 (maybe) at loading dock 'blue flagged' in 1939

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997026902/PP/

GATX 20717

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012130/PP/

SP 47775 tank

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000001931/PP/

Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oil tank cars in the railroad yards

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012154/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012155/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012158/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012158/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012167/PP/

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012168/PP/

Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oil tank cars at the Mid-continent refinery

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012626/PP/

Some tank cars in the photo below appear to be in the process of getting new paint

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012684/PP/

SHPX 10565

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997013052/PP/

CYCX 10376

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997013115/PP/



UTLX_34653 tank, notice Andrews trucks

https://www.loc.gov/item/2017699601/

CYCX tank cars

https://www.loc.gov/item/2017699585/


PSPX 2530

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014222/PP/

Two EORX tank cars, followed by a high walkway tank

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001013053/PP/


ATSF tank cars

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1998013632/PP/

COSX tank cars

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012630/PP/



Claus Schlund


Re: Several nice views

James E Kubanick
 

The Stock cars at Radford, VA look like N&W cars to me.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


On Friday, September 15, 2017 8:00 PM, "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Hi List members,

Nice view of GB&W 6202

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997005459/PP/

Nice view of several boxcars, including IC and GN. The GN (trussrod) car seems to have a entirely discernable sag. Were we not
discussing this topic on this list recently?

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004759/PP/

Fruits and vegetables at terminal. Pittsburgh, PA. Note the early PRR container flat (class FM) and what appears to be a PRR class
X29 boxcar next to it - not what you expect to see at the fruits and vegetables at terminal!

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000043567/PP/

Good view of tank car loading platform

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014159/PP/

ACL 91562 gondola

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004662/PP/

Stock cars Radford, Virginia - cannot discern road name

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000042712/PP/

Iron ore at Great Northern Railroad yards. Superior, Wisconsin

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044530/PP/

COSX 1021 tank car

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012632/PP/

Loading seventy ton cars with iron ore. Mahoning pit, Hibbing, Minnesota

https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044650/PP/

Clinchfield hopper and CP box sulphur loading

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028410/PP/

COSX 3565 and friends

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8d09232/

Claus Schlund




Re: Several nice views

Staffan Ehnbom
 

Yes, I think the cars in the second line are general service gons. The taller ones towards the right are probably GN 77000-77249 series GS gons which were 10'11 high and the load is probably coal.

Staffan Ehnbom

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 5:53 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 




---In STMFC@..., wrote :


(Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) 
=========================

That would be my guess... coal loaded at the twin ports destined for use up on the iron range. Not enough of the cars show to say exactly what kind of hoppers  they are, but I don't think they are abnormally tall. I think the next two cars in that same string, nearest us, are GS gons.

Dennis Storzek



Peter and Charlie @ Detail Associates

Bryian Sones
 

Hi All,

Not sure if they are still active on the list. If not, does anyone know how to get in touch with one of them?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta CA.


Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Al Kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

WW2!


Al Kresse

On September 16, 2017 at 7:47 AM "j.markwart@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
An: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 

 

 


 


Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Jim Hayes
 

World war II, Guarding against saboteurs.

Jim

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 4:47 AM, j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
An: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 



Re: Several nice views

Bruce Smith
 

​Johannes,


I concur with Dennis.  I think that the angle is deceptive and makes the near two cars look like hoppers but I believe  that they are most likely gondolas and the hoppers you are questioning are really just normal hoppers loaded with coal.


Regards

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:53 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [STMFC] Several nice views
 





---In STMFC@..., wrote :


(Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) 
=========================

That would be my guess... coal loaded at the twin ports destined for use up on the iron range. Not enough of the cars show to say exactly what kind of hoppers  they are, but I don't think they are abnormally tall. I think the next two cars in that same string, nearest us, are GS gons.

Dennis Storzek



Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/16/2017 8:43 AM, Brian Ehni bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:

1942. WW2 & sabotage were high in everybody's mind. 

    RPO postal workers* were armed way past WWII, see pictures of RPOs in that era.  Most photos I've seen (limited) of that era for guards etc. show side arms (probably 38s) so the shot gun is a little unusual.   We would want to get this right for our STMFC  yards:-)!

* my dad worked in the PO all his life and in the late 40s many/most/all POs had weapons in them.  Dad showed me the 44 he had behind the PO clerk window.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Several nice views

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <j.markwart@...> wrote :


(Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) 
=========================

That would be my guess... coal loaded at the twin ports destined for use up on the iron range. Not enough of the cars show to say exactly what kind of hoppers  they are, but I don't think they are abnormally tall. I think the next two cars in that same string, nearest us, are GS gons.

Dennis Storzek


Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

 

1942. WW2 & sabotage were high in everybody's mind. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Sep 16, 2017, at 6:47 AM, j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hello friends,
 
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
 
Thanks and greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
An: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
 

Hi List Members,

Nice shot of tank car placard board, you can even read the placard - DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL

https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012082/PP/

Claus Schlund
 


Re: Several nice views

vapeurchapelon
 

Hello Ben,
 
many thanks for your quick replies. Very plausible with the gun and security background during war time.
 
But with the GN question you misunderstood me (or I was not precisely enough - I apologize for this possibility as English isn't my first language). I am speaking of the SECOND line of cars - viewed from the front - in front of them are short ore cars. Directly behind them are two "normal-height" hoppers with 7 vertical side posts - likely an "ordinary" 70ton triple or quad type which were very common. But on the same track coupled to these two cars are 6 hoppers (?) - though also with 7 vertical posts they are higher. They are much larger than the ore cars. (Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) I wonder which type of cars they are.
 
Many thanks and best regards
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 14:29 Uhr
Von: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]"
An: "STMFC@..."
Betreff: Re: Aw: [STMFC] Several nice views
 

 

Johannes Markwart asked:
"At the GN iron ore scenery:
 
https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c20263/
 
-what type of cars do we see in the second line of cars at right? A group of 6 higher than normal hoppers - seemingly. If the recording date is after the steam era that may be some 100 ton hoppers, but the quality of the photo looks to be "steam-era-like", so I am wondering."

These are Pressed Steel Car Company ore cars built between 1899 and 1901.  These are 50-ton cars, but have a smaller cubic capacity than a coal hopper as iron ore is more dense.  Westerfield makes kits for these cars in HO scale.
 
 
Ben Hom

 


Re: Several nice views

Benjamin Hom
 

Johannes Markwart asked:
"At the GN iron ore scenery:
 
https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c20263/
 
-what type of cars do we see in the second line of cars at right? A group of 6 higher than normal hoppers - seemingly. If the recording date is after the steam era that may be some 100 ton hoppers, but the quality of the photo looks to be "steam-era-like", so I am wondering."

These are Pressed Steel Car Company ore cars built between 1899 and 1901.  These are 50-ton cars, but have a smaller cubic capacity than a coal hopper as iron ore is more dense.  Westerfield makes kits for these cars in HO scale.


Ben Hom

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