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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
Kenneth Schanz
Excellent book documenting the efforts to deal with the U-boat activity early in WWII would be "Torpedo Junction" by Homer Hickam. Ken Schanz
On Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:14 PM, "Ben Heinley bheinley@... [STMFC]" wrote: German U-boats were already sinking oil tankers in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Atlantic coast. People could see them burning from shore, Most people were very jumpy about sabotage and if the guard came across hobos along the tracks, he would not know if they were actually hobos or German a spies, especially at night. Ben HeinleyOn Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: Careful with the captions
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 9/17/2017 8:56 AM, Tony Thompson
tony@... [STMFC] wrote:
But it really is an excellent shot of the hoses used for loading or unloading ICC 105-type tank cars through the bonnet valving. So when empty the tank would still be under a
low pressure with vapor? -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User SPROG User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Careful with the captions
Tony Thompson
John Barry wrote:
I agree with John. This is not an AvGas tank car, much more likely propane (before it was tagged as LPG). But it really is an excellent shot of the hoses used for loading or unloading ICC 105-type tank cars through the bonnet valving. In fact, I used this same John Vachon photo in a recent blog post explaining how tank cars like this are unloaded. Here's a link if you are interested: Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Careful with the captions
John Barry
While generally correct, sometimes you have to take the OWI captions on the LOC collection with a grain of salt. Case in point is the following:
While I believe that the date, and other info is correct, and the refinery may even produce AVGAS, I don't think that is the product flowing into this tank car. Last time I checked, AVGAS was a liquid and shipped in AAR class TM or TMI tanks with expansion domes. The liquid fuel did (and still does in future times like now) expand and contract with the ambient temperature. What I see in this photo though is some kind of transfer to or from a pressurized tank where the worked is manipulating the valves protected by a "bonnet". Note the small diameter of the "dome" and its flanged construction. Then there is the the hardware on the hoses connecting to the tank, the one has a round dial that looks like a pressure gauge, not something that you would see on a liquid transfer at atmospheric pressure. Hyperbole for the war effort aside, it's still a great shot of WWII railroading, as are the other photos in the collection. John Barry ATSF North Bay Lines Golden Gates & Fast Freights Lovettsville, VA 707-490-9696 PO Box 44736 Washington, DC 20026-4736
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Friends,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
We're getting away from freight cars, but I will risk adding one comment to this discussion. Some of the tunnels and likely bridges on the WP in the Feather River Canyon had little wooden guard shacks added during the war years. When I railfanned the WP in the 1970s photographing FREIGHT CARS, the ruins of a few of these were still visible. Now back to our regularly scheduled FREIGHT CAR content. Yours Aye, Garth
On 9/16/17 9:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith'
smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
benjamin
German U-boats were already sinking oil tankers in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Atlantic coast. People could see them burning from shore, Most people were very jumpy about sabotage and if the guard came across hobos along the tracks, he would not know if they were actually hobos or German a spies, especially at night. Ben Heinley
On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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How Long to Load/Unload a Tank Car?
Hi,
One of Claus's pictures was of a cut of tank cars being loaded (unloaded?) that were blue flagged. I've always understood the meaning of those flaggings ... but I've never known/learned "how long did it take to load/unload a 10k tank car?". I notice, for instance, that in the picture that Claus posted the link to there are no "workers" in the pic (at least none that I noticed/picked out). Presumably the loading process took considerable time. And had an automatic "shut off"? - Jim B.
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
In June of 1942, 8 German saboteurs were landed by submarine, 4 on Long Island and 4 in Florida. They were only caught because one of them decided he was loyal to the US and turned the others in. Even before that, the US was on heightened state of alert,
but the alert level went up even more afterwards. Most strategic targets such as bridges, were guarded by US Army or National Guard troops, but others, such as this guard, were also armed as a sort of "home guard". The weapon may likely be a personal firearm
and not company or government issue weapon.
Regards, Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
From: STMFC@... on behalf of j.markwart@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:47 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Aw: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL Hello friends,
was the gun part of the official employee equipment? For what reason?
Thanks and greetings
Johannes
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 02:29 Uhr
Von: "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" An: STMFC Betreff: [STMFC] DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL Hi List Members,
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More images in this great collection
Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Hi List Members,
More images in this great collection. Great Northern Railroad yards, cars of iron ore passing over the scales https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044528/PP/ Views of G&SI (Gulf and Ship Island) boxcars 3218 and 3237. Suggest you download the 19MB TIF files for improved resolution. https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994012015/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994012016/PP/ LUX 159 tank car https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001011890/PP/ Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Oil tank car. The tank diameter looks really big on this multi-compartment car. https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001013338/PP/ I-GN tank car https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001026379/PP/ GN passenger car (mixed in with STMCF's, of course) https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1998004928/PP/ A few Phillips tank cars https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014220/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014184/PP/ Coal going to Jones Laughlin steel plant. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hard to tell for sure, but the hoppers may carry J&L reporting marks. https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000043599/PP/ Freight car and flour mill, Minneapolis, Minnesota. NP 11760 and GN 5122 boxcars https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004753/PP/ Freeport Sulphur Company hoppers https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028342/PP/ Hoppers in Sulphur service, what a conversation piece that would make as a load! https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028312/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028419/PP/ GN cabooses https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997005249/PP/ Automobile car loading - notice unusual wheel chocks https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004917/PP/ PM and L&N boxcars https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028359/PP/ Wichita, Kansas. Oil tank cars https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000040527/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000040526/PP/ NYC flat (497811 maybe) https://www.loc.gov/item/npc2008009258/ UTLX tank car https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001022985/PP/ UTLX 98060 (maybe) at loading dock 'blue flagged' in 1939 https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997026902/PP/ GATX 20717 https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012130/PP/ SP 47775 tank https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000001931/PP/ Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oil tank cars in the railroad yards https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012154/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012155/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012158/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012158/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012167/PP/ https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012168/PP/ Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oil tank cars at the Mid-continent refinery https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012626/PP/ Some tank cars in the photo below appear to be in the process of getting new paint https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012684/PP/ SHPX 10565 https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997013052/PP/ CYCX 10376 https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997013115/PP/ UTLX_34653 tank, notice Andrews trucks https://www.loc.gov/item/2017699601/ CYCX tank cars https://www.loc.gov/item/2017699585/ PSPX 2530 https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014222/PP/ Two EORX tank cars, followed by a high walkway tank https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001013053/PP/ ATSF tank cars https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1998013632/PP/ COSX tank cars https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012630/PP/ Claus Schlund
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Re: Several nice views
The Stock cars at Radford, VA look like N&W cars to me. Jim Kubanick Morgantown WV
On Friday, September 15, 2017 8:00 PM, "'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC]" wrote: Hi List members,
Nice view of GB&W 6202 https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997005459/PP/ Nice view of several boxcars, including IC and GN. The GN (trussrod) car seems to have a entirely discernable sag. Were we not discussing this topic on this list recently? https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004759/PP/ Fruits and vegetables at terminal. Pittsburgh, PA. Note the early PRR container flat (class FM) and what appears to be a PRR class X29 boxcar next to it - not what you expect to see at the fruits and vegetables at terminal! https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000043567/PP/ Good view of tank car loading platform https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001014159/PP/ ACL 91562 gondola https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa1997004662/PP/ Stock cars Radford, Virginia - cannot discern road name https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000042712/PP/ Iron ore at Great Northern Railroad yards. Superior, Wisconsin https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044530/PP/ COSX 1021 tank car https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001012632/PP/ Loading seventy ton cars with iron ore. Mahoning pit, Hibbing, Minnesota https://www.loc.gov/item/fsa2000044650/PP/ Clinchfield hopper and CP box sulphur loading https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001028410/PP/ COSX 3565 and friends https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8d09232/ Claus Schlund
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Re: Several nice views
Staffan Ehnbom
Yes, I think the cars in the second line are general service gons. The taller ones towards the right are probably GN 77000-77249 series GS gons which were 10'11 high and the load is probably coal. Staffan Ehnbom
On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 5:53 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Peter and Charlie @ Detail Associates
Bryian Sones
Hi All, Not sure if they are still active on the list. If not, does anyone know how to get in touch with one of them? Thanks, Bryian Sones Union Pacific Prototype Modeler Murrieta CA.
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
Al Kresse <water.kresse@...>
WW2! Al Kresse
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
Jim Hayes
World war II, Guarding against saboteurs. Jim
On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 4:47 AM, j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: Several nice views
Johannes,
I concur with Dennis. I think that the angle is deceptive and makes the near two cars look like hoppers but I believe that they are most likely gondolas and the hoppers you are questioning are really just normal hoppers loaded with coal.
Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
From: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:53 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [STMFC] Several nice views ---In STMFC@..., wrote : (Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.)
=========================
That would be my guess... coal loaded at the twin ports destined for use up on the iron range. Not enough of the cars show to say exactly what kind of hoppers they are, but I don't think they are abnormally tall. I think the next two cars in that same
string, nearest us, are GS gons.
Dennis Storzek
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 9/16/2017 8:43 AM, Brian Ehni
bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:
RPO postal workers* were armed way past WWII,
see pictures of RPOs in that era. Most photos I've seen
(limited) of that era for guards etc. show side arms (probably
38s) so the shot gun is a little unusual. We would want to get
this right for our STMFC yards:-)! * my dad worked in the PO all his life and in the
late 40s many/most/all POs had weapons in them. Dad showed me
the 44 he had behind the PO clerk window. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User SPROG User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Several nice views
Dennis Storzek
---In STMFC@..., <j.markwart@...> wrote : (Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) ========================= That would be my guess... coal loaded at the twin ports destined for use up on the iron range. Not enough of the cars show to say exactly what kind of hoppers they are, but I don't think they are abnormally tall. I think the next two cars in that same string, nearest us, are GS gons. Dennis Storzek
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Re: DANGEROUS CRUDE OIL
1942. WW2 & sabotage were high in everybody's mind. Thanks! Brian Ehni (Sent from my iPhone)
On Sep 16, 2017, at 6:47 AM, j.markwart@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Re: Several nice views
vapeurchapelon
Hello Ben,
many thanks for your quick replies. Very plausible with the gun and security background during war time.
But with the GN question you misunderstood me (or I was not precisely enough - I apologize for this possibility as English isn't my first language). I am speaking of the SECOND line of cars - viewed from the front - in front of them are short ore cars. Directly behind them are two "normal-height" hoppers with 7 vertical side posts - likely an "ordinary" 70ton triple or quad type which were very common. But on the same track coupled to these two cars are 6 hoppers (?) - though also with 7 vertical posts they are higher. They are much larger than the ore cars. (Maybe they contain coal as their load is darker than the load of the ore cars.) I wonder which type of cars they are.
Many thanks and best regards
Johannes
Gesendet: Samstag, 16. September 2017 um 14:29 Uhr
Von: "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" An: "STMFC@..." Betreff: Re: Aw: [STMFC] Several nice views
Johannes Markwart asked:
"At the GN iron ore scenery: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c20263/ -what type of cars do we see in the second line of cars at right? A group of 6 higher than normal hoppers - seemingly. If the recording date is after the steam era that may be some 100 ton hoppers, but the quality of the photo looks to be "steam-era-like", so I am wondering." These are Pressed Steel Car Company ore cars built between 1899 and 1901. These are 50-ton cars, but have a smaller cubic capacity than a coal hopper as iron ore is more dense. Westerfield makes kits for these cars in HO scale. Ben Hom
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Re: Several nice views
Benjamin Hom
Johannes Markwart asked: "At the GN iron ore scenery: https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c20263/ -what type of cars do we see in the second line of cars at right? A group of 6 higher than normal hoppers - seemingly. If the recording date is after the steam era that may be some 100 ton hoppers, but the quality of the photo looks to be "steam-era-like", so I am wondering." These are Pressed Steel Car Company ore cars built between 1899 and 1901. These are 50-ton cars, but have a smaller cubic capacity than a coal hopper as iron ore is more dense. Westerfield makes kits for these cars in HO scale. Ben Hom
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