Date   

Re: St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County photos, 1942

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

These are some great human interest photos, plus of course all the neat steam. Did anyone else notice the Fox tender trucks under 

I was impressed https://www.facebook.com/Radio.WW2/photos/a.1987816858130967.1073742955.1634742540105069/1987820384797281/?type=3&theater , with the whole train showing. The first car appears to be a milk car carrying cans, and I would not be surprised if the following car is the same. Then come two Hood milk cars with glass-lined tanks, like the ones being filled with the hoses.

What appears to be the same train is seen in https://www.facebook.com/Radio.WW2/photos/a.1987816858130967.1073742955.1634742540105069/1987820671463919/?type=3&theater . That gondola behind the combine (great roof, by the way, and blunt on the other end) is really neat, and riding on another pair of Fox trucks. The gon in front of the combine is PRR, as is the double-door boxcar. The single-sheathed boxcar appears to be B&M. Next comes what I think from the position of the letter might be Reading. Tank car unknown, but likely carrying gasoline. Next another PRR double-door boxcar with a round roof, and then the milk cars fading out.

It’s great fun to be able to see the whole train and speculate.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On Sep 27, 2017, at 11:55 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


What a fantastic collection of photos! Pure Americana. I wish there were
such "day in the life of" collections for all the other branchlines and mixed
trains there were back then.

Tim O'Connor


The WW2 Radio site on Facebook has posted 78 photographs taken not eh St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County in 1942.  Lots of great action including loading/unloading a Hood's Milk tank car.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Radio.WW2/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1987816858130967 
Bruce Smith



Re: [EXTERNAL] was MILW 67053 200-ton 4-truck flat car now other unique flats

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ben;

Thanks for the detective work! Nice job!

I can't pull that link (< div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1506520757793_125922">) to the F25 cars, and yes, John REALLY needs to do a flat car set for available models. There are a lot of undecaled flat car models out there (I have at least six). I will talk to him again about this.

Both would be great kitbashes, and give up really unique cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:33 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] MILW 67053 200-ton 4-truck flat car



Elden Gatwood wrote:
"I'd agree. The Red Ball F25 sides are actually pretty good, but you have to do a scratched deck, well ends, sill ends and underbody, which halted me at some point. The lack of decals at that time was the final nail for me. I ultimately did a set of SK decals for a Rail Classics model I did finish, and was finally satisfied. I never did do an F25B, C, D or E, (diagonal plate loader or tank head loader), which would have involved a lot of work, but boy, what a unique car that would be!"

I've got two of these in the stash. It might be time to cut a deal with John Frantz for a decal set.
< div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1506520757793_125922">


"I looked for the photo I had of the prototype for the Red Ball P&LE flat, and was wondering if anyone knew what lot number that car was?"

My best guess is P&LE 6885-6889, Lot R-1, built 1911 at McKees Rocks. Unfortunately, the best I can do is a clearance diagram on Terry Link's site, which for the NYCS are pretty minimalist:
Blockedhttp://canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-r-1.jpg
Blockedhttp://hoseeker.net/redball/redballcatalog11pg08.jpg <Blockedhttp://canadasouthern.com/caso/images/l ot-r-1.jpg>

This would be another neat project as the cars lasted until 1957.


Ben Hom


Re: [EXTERNAL] MILW 67053 200-ton 4-truck flat car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

You are right!

It looks from my ORER that they grouped their HD/specialty flats into a different higher number series at one point. I will try to find out.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:03 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] MILW 67053 200-ton 4-truck flat car



On 9/27/2017 11:52 AM, 'Gatwood, Elden J CIV CESAW CESAD (US)' elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil <mailto:elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil> [STMFC] wrote:


Unfortunately, 67053 cannot be found at the end of this list

My old eyes aren't that good but that could be 67058.


--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Glass loaded on freight car

Eric Hansmann
 

Bob,

The CCC&StL box car stood out as argument against the 1919 date. It seems the car has the NEW x-25 stencil, so the image can't precede the build of the car. As cars would be weighed every two years in the mid-1920s, the photo date could range from 1925 to 1928.

There are a number of city oriented sites with historic photo archives. Historic Pittsburgh hits a number of our buttons with a varied rail and industrial scene.


Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


On September 27, 2017 at 9:52 PM "rwitt_2000@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

The date on the warehouse photo from the web site is 1919 where Eric you place it in the mid-1920s, but as I read the info at the Canadian Southern web site, the CCC&StL box car, Lot 501-B, was built by AC&F in 1925. Considering how dirty the cars is it has to be somewhat later.

Historic sites try their best, but it can be difficult assigning the correct dates.

These photos are a nice find.

Bob Witt


Re: Side reporting marks

Tony Thompson
 

Actually, Tim, the spelled-out road name was adopted in June 1946. You could look it up.
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:36 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 


 > I believe Southern Pacific in 1930's lettering schemes used the
 > full name rather than SP or S.P..
 > Ken Adams

Belief isn't as useful or accurate as you might think! ;-)

Prior to 1948 the SP used only those initials with no periods,
with lines above and below the reporting mark and car number.

In 1948 the SP began to use the full name but dropped the lines in 1953,
I think. (I have no 1952 builder photos.) At this same time (1948) the
T&NO began spelling out Southern Pacific in Roman letters above their
reporting marks. Around the mid 1950's T&NO was simplified to TNO. In
1955 the large gothic Southern Pacific name was adopted and the spelled
out Roman letters were dropped - although some 1955 paint jobs were still
painted the earlier way.

Don't get us started on the circle emblem. That has a really complicated
history.
 
Tim O'


Facebook posting of 192 Life Pictures 1943 US Army Rail Move

Ken Adams
 

I don't know how thus French site finds them. A lot appear to be posed for the photographer but lots of pix of jeeps and deuces being loaded and traveling on western roads. 


https://www.facebook.com/Radio.WW2/photos/a.1690859117826744.1073742070.1634742540105069/1690859611160028/?type=3&theater


Ken Adams



Re: Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?

James McDonald
 

HI Garth,

That’s a very good suggestion, but in 1930 there were apparently still 100 of the RFP 3401 cars rostered, while there were simultaneously 80 of the RFP 3506-3590 series so it doesn’t look like the 3401 series were the donor cars.

Take care,

James

On Sep 27, 2017, at 5:02 PM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?
Posted by: "Garth Groff" sarahsan@embarqmail.com ggg9y
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:02 pm ((PDT))

James,

Very interesting data. Thank you.

You say that the 1922 and 1923 cars were rebodied. Despite the change in king pin distance (either of which could have been in error, or fudged just like the capacities), could the later cars have been rebuilds of the original second-hand cars? Consider there were 105 of the 3401 series. Remove 85 cars for rebuilding, and you have just 20 left. There were 18 of the 3401 series in 1954 and 16 in 1958. That’s pretty close, and a bit suspicious.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County photos, 1942

Tim O'Connor
 


What a fantastic collection of photos! Pure Americana. I wish there were
such "day in the life of" collections for all the other branchlines and mixed
trains there were back then.

Tim O'Connor


The WW2 Radio site on Facebook has posted 78 photographs taken not eh St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County in 1942.  Lots of great action including loading/unloading a Hood's Milk tank car.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Radio.WW2/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1987816858130967
Bruce Smith


Re: Glass loaded on freight car

rwitt_2000
 

The date on the warehouse photo from the web site is 1919 where Eric you place it in the mid-1920s, but as I read the info at the Canadian Southern web site, the CCC&StL box car, Lot 501-B, was built by AC&F in 1925. Considering how dirty the cars is it has to be somewhat later.

Historic sites try their best, but it can be difficult assigning the correct dates.

These photos are a nice find.

Bob Witt


St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County photos, 1942

Bruce Smith
 

Folks, 


The WW2 Radio site on Facebook has posted 78 photographs taken not eh St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County in 1942.  Lots of great action including loading/unloading a Hood's Milk tank car.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Radio.WW2/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1987816858130967


Regards

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


Re: PRESERVED ROLLING STOCK

mark_landgraf
 

Bill

There is a 1973 publication Railfans Guide to Museum and Park Displays by Harold Cox. It appears to be available from the National Capital Historical Museum of Transportation Inc, POB 5795, Bethesda MD 20014. They have a Web site, although I did dig into it. 

The book covers USA and Canada. The listings are by state and city then museum name. The listings are less than stellar. The locos are decent, 0-6-0 P&WV #12, but the freight cars are more like UP flat, SP hopper, DRG&W boxcar. 

I suppose it's a good starting point, but it needs a lot of updating. New museums, closed facilities, transferred equipment, new equipment‎, scrappings, etc. 

If you have difficulty obtaining a copy, I could scan mine. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY
From: WILLIAM PARDIE PARDIEW001@... [STMFC]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 1:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Reply To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] PRESERVED ROLLING STOCK

 


I find hat the quality of our modeling is heavily dependent on the information that we have to work with. I have been fortunate in finding cars in various rail museums throughout the country.that represent cars on my modeling list. Some folks on this list have been very gracious in photographing cars in museums that I could not get to (Living in Hawaii I can't just get in a car and drive). Often times I come across these cars by accident. A few years ago I visited the Rio Vista Museum in California. I took some photos and when I got home I found tht Ihad a photo of a PFE R-30-16 (The Terry Wegman - Red Caboose conversion). Last year I went back and got some detail photos of this car.

The point of my discussion is that I wonder if a roster has ever been made of the freight cars tha have been preserved in various museums.
Most museums do not list their inventory on their websites. I am sure that such a list would be of great value to all of us.

I will keep hoping:

Bill Pardie



Re: Side reporting marks

Tim O'Connor
 


 > I believe Southern Pacific in 1930's lettering schemes used the
 > full name rather than SP or S.P..
 > Ken Adams

Belief isn't as useful or accurate as you might think! ;-)

Prior to 1948 the SP used only those initials with no periods,
with lines above and below the reporting mark and car number.

In 1948 the SP began to use the full name but dropped the lines in 1953,
I think. (I have no 1952 builder photos.) At this same time (1948) the
T&NO began spelling out Southern Pacific in Roman letters above their
reporting marks. Around the mid 1950's T&NO was simplified to TNO. In
1955 the large gothic Southern Pacific name was adopted and the spelled
out Roman letters were dropped - although some 1955 paint jobs were still
painted the earlier way.

Don't get us started on the circle emblem. That has a really complicated
history.
 
Tim O'


Re: PFE R-40-10 reefer ice hatch detail

Tim O'Connor
 


Not as such but Intermountain used to sell the sprues (runners) for 50 cents
each if they had them on hand. I don't know if they still do because I think
the molding is now done in China. Anyone know?

Tim O'Connor


Does anyone make the R-40-10 ice hatches as a separate part?
Ken Adams


Re: MILW 67053 200-ton 4-truck flat car

Tim O'Connor
 


WOW. Does anyone read the subject lines anymore? I posted 67053 because
that is the car number. There were only TWO of these cars on the Milwaukee's
roster at the time. I did look it up in the ORER to be sure. The other car
was 67051.

It is NOT one of the 30 foot flat cars!! Those were either welded or cast steel
construction and were built in 1942, and they lasted until the end of the railroad.

Tim O'Connor


I see 67058 as well. Looks like one of the MILW gun flats that MDC had in their
line with the ends extended to accommodate the bolstered tandem trucks!
Charlie Vlk


Re: Side reporting marks

Tony Thompson
 

Nope. It was S.P. until 1931, then SP until 1946, and only then spelled out (until about 1953).
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 27, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Ken Adams smadanek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I believe Southern Pacific in 1930's lettering schemes used the full name rather than SP or S.P..

Ken Adams



Re: PFE R-40-10 reefer ice hatch detail (Holland Hatch Covers)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here is a link to a brief, illustrated article on Holland hatch covers from Railway Age, Volume 106 (June 24, 1939), on Pages 1081 and 1082.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=0nVCAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1082&lpg=PA1082&dq=railroad+holland+hatch+covers&source=bl&ots=8Fikk76_S-&sig=LyRa4Noz87yuZPbgAS1j_0xcsWU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7zYvTxcbWAhVFqVQKHRHuDMIQ6AEIUDAM#v=onepage&q=railroad%20holland%20hatch%20covers&f=false

 

or

 

http://tinyurl.com/y77ncfsj

 

An interesting (to me, at least) comment in the article stated, "When the hatch is closed, the lever is laid over the cover, engaging the fulcrum on the cover bracket. Approximately 50 lb. pressure at the end of the lever produces in excess of 300 lb. on the gasket, compressing it approximately 3/16 in. when the cover is locked." I always assumed the cover was just closed snug in the opening.

 

There still is a Holland Company today in Illinois which I assume (again) is the same company: https://www.hollandco.com/

 

Among other things the company "also provides customized rail car products, locomotive, transloading and rail car servicing solutions."

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Side reporting marks

earlyrail
 

ed Sep 27, 2017 2:02 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
n_cbqguy
Bob & Group-
Does the term “reporting marks” encompass all the dimensional, weight. load and other information stenciled on the car or just refer to the owner initials?
When was the registry of owner initials established and under what authority was it established? Did the Official Railway Equipment Registry have any official or quasi-official role in the assignment of initials to prevent confusion?

I have addressed this before, but cannot find the direct reference right now.

In 1913 there was a letter send by the MCB(?) dealing with reporting marks.
This was the start of the X private owner mark requirement.
This was also the start of regulating reporting marks to avoid duplicates of which there were several - including at least one mark the 4 railroads claimed.

One confusing mark that lasted into the 1960's was the T&NO.
There was an American railroad and a Canadian railroad that used these marks.

Howard Garner


Re: Side reporting marks

Dave Parker
 

I would defer to Tony or one of the other SP gurus, but the only two builder's photos that I have from what I consider the relevant period here both have SP between the bars.  One is from 1924 and the other from 1935.

Since the context of the original post is when did reporting marks first become standardized, I have confined myself to pre-WWII evidence.  No idea what might have happened later.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:34 PM, "Scott Chatfield blindog@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
The Pennsy spelled out PENNSYLVANIA on many cars in leiu of PRR until the debut of Plain Keystone (circa 1960).  Southern Pacific spelled out their name on cars into the mid 50s.  And the Southern By God Railway did not use SOU until the debut of Claytor font in the mid 80s.  

Indeed, there was never agreement between the clerks of what initials to use for the Southern on waybills and other routing paperwork.  I used SOU but some others used SR, which I gather was more commonly used in the era of this list.


Scott Chatfield



Re: Side reporting marks

D. Scott Chatfield
 

The Pennsy spelled out PENNSYLVANIA on many cars in leiu of PRR until the debut of Plain Keystone (circa 1960).  Southern Pacific spelled out their name on cars into the mid 50s.  And the Southern By God Railway did not use SOU until the debut of Claytor font in the mid 80s.  

Indeed, there was never agreement between the clerks of what initials to use for the Southern on waybills and other routing paperwork.  I used SOU but some others used SR, which I gather was more commonly used in the era of this list.


Scott Chatfield


Re: Glass loaded on freight car

Dave Nelson
 

A cool diagram.  Not mentioned is an interesting detail about the melting and extrusion… the glass is very likely to be floating on a bed of molten tin.  That flotation is why it’s flat.  Another curious thing about glass (at any time)  is it is not a solid – no crystals.  I’m led to understand it is (essentially) an extremely slow moving liquid.

 

Tony is our resident materials guy… perhaps he can expound on this stuff for us.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 10:17 AM

 

A detailed diagram shows the glass making process, circa 1930. Note the raw materials are shoveled from a box car and the finished product is loaded into box cars or gondolas.

http://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A20170227-hpichswp-0030

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

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