Date   

Re: Livestock Car: NP 81280

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Brad,

Sorry to disagree with you.  The radial roof and placement of the letter boards at the top of the sides give this away as an NP design.  The Mather cars had the initial and number in the more usual place on the left end of the sides and the roof was Mather's own design and not radial.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Livestock Car: NP 81280

Benjamin Hom
 

Brad Andonian wrote:
"The NP car is a Mather built stock car."
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4193725 

I recommend you reconsider your assessment.  This is absolutely not a Mather stock cr.


Ben Hom


Re: Livestock Car: NP 81280

gary laakso
 

NP 81280 is an NP design, see the arch roof.  It is not a Mather stockcar, which NP did lease.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Oct 30, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Brad Andonian cereshill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Bob,


The NP car is a Mather built stock car.

Nice shot!
Brad


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Monday, October 30, 2017, 5:45 PM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Here is NP 81280 as seen in June 1973, which is fairly late in this car's life as well as the NP's livestock transportation era.

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4193725

 

Is this car the prototype used for the Central Valley flat cast HO scale kit?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Livestock Car: NP 81280

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Bob,

These NP wood stock cars lasted a long time after livestock movements generally ceased.  In the 1970s, the NP and then BN used the NP them for hauling ties for roadbed improvement projects.  I photographed quite a few of them on my trips West in 1974 and 1977.

The car is essentially the Central Valley model, except that CV made the car a bit wider than the prototype.  If that bothers anyone interested in building one, the NP Society has resin ends (the hardest part to narrow) for sale, and I believe the rest is done by narrowing the roof at the center and the floor on the long edges.  Notice that the prototype in the photo you found has had its ladders shortened and some extra grabs added to the ends.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Livestock Car: NP 81280

Brad Andonian
 

Bob,

The NP car is a Mather built stock car.

Nice shot!

On Monday, October 30, 2017, 5:45 PM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Here is NP 81280 as seen in June 1973, which is fairly late in this car's life as well as the NP's livestock transportation era.

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4193725

 

Is this car the prototype used for the Central Valley flat cast HO scale kit?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: LNE Billboard Lettering

John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

 And judging by the number, the car was is nonrevenue service. L&NE Ry. 351 was a blocking car, and L&NE 353 was a snowplow.
 
John C, La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: williamdale75@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Oct 29, 2017 6:29 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: LNE Billboard Lettering

 
Group,

     The USRA boxcar 352, is of CNJ heritage.  This car came on board after the L&NE ceased operations October 1961, when the Lehigh & New England Railway was formed, hence the CNJ USRA box.  The taller SS car in question (7001-7200) were originally built in 1916 by Pressed Steel as class GM gondolas (10001-10200), were converted to boxcars to handle bagged cement circa 1925.  The only rib side hoppers were another grouping of pre USRA two bays, coming from Cambria, Pressed Steel, Lehigh Coal & Navigation (second hand 1913 Standard Steel). Lastly, the PS-1's were an order of 300, and eight were bought from the NYS&W, all lived a very short life span and were gone by 1960.  The NYS&W cars were distinguished by the 5 panel Superior door.

Bill


Livestock Car: NP 81280

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Here is NP 81280 as seen in June 1973, which is fairly late in this car's life as well as the NP's livestock transportation era.

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4193725

 

Is this car the prototype used for the Central Valley flat cast HO scale kit?

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: The UTLX X tankers

Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

I did notice that the USG-A cars, which were also ARA class II, were allowed gasoline as a cargo...

Delving into this, I found “All About Tank Cars” as an Online eBook.  
Published by Standard Tank Car Co in 1921, this is a massive tome (870 pages) with some amazing information.  Around page 537 it discusses Class II specs and from this and other places, it appears that class II cars could be tested to a variety of limits that would then define the commodities they could haul.  So, unlike what I thought, there is no hard and fast rule for a class II car after 1917, but there is also no question that some class II cars were more restricted in what they could carry than class III cars.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 30, 2017, at 10:39 AM, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce:

We can agree that the ARA Spec II cars were restricted from carrying certain cargoes, but I remain unconvinced that the more common refinery products (gasoline, kerosene, naptha) would necessarily be on that list.  

There were a number of criteria in the 1938 ICC regs:  safety valves, manway construction, and "outage" (i.e., dome volume).  If these could me met, inflammables such as gasoline could be legally carried.  BTW, the UTLX Class X cars had dome volumes ranging from 2.3 to 3.4% of the tank volume as built, making many of them particularly suitable for inflammables.

I revisited the 125723 post, and did not see anything that contradicts the above.  I did note some language concerning war emergency standards, about which I know nothing.  It appears, however, that they were more lenient than the pre-war ICC regs, and might be of some relevance to your 1944 modeling year.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: K-Brake Or AB-Brake?

Bill Welch
 

As used on the Erie's 1932 ARA cars this vertical handbrake is called the "C&O Geared Type" according to photo-caption on page 138 of Speedwitch's 1932 book. I am working on a Resin Car Works Blog entry modeling this item and other "B" end detailson the Atlas 1932 kit I am building. It will probably appear in the next couple of weeks.

Bill Welch


Re: The UTLX X tankers

Bruce Smith
 

Tony,

That’s what I get for trying to be inclusive ;)  Nope, no evidence.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:22 PM, Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce Smith wrote:

In part I based this on post #135723 by Elden Gatwood, as well as repeated references by others over the years on this list that ARA class II/ICC class 102  . . .


      Bruce, I've never seen any indication that the ICC takeover of the former ARA tank car standards included a class called "ICC 102." Do you have documentation on that? You are of course correct that if they HAD done so, they would have called ARA Class II by the name ICC 102.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history









Re: [Proto-Layouts] St. Louis Sanborn Map Reference

David Jobe, Sr.
 

John,

 

Try http://dl.mospace.umsystem.edu/mu/islandora/object/mu%3A138690 ..  What part of St. Louis are you interested in?

 

David Jobe, Sr.

Saint Ann, Missouri

 

From: Proto-Layouts@... [mailto:Proto-Layouts@...]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 10:55 AM
To: Yahoogroups; Yahoogroups
Subject: [Proto-Layouts] St. Louis Sanborn Map Reference

 




Hi Guys,

 

Does anyone have a link to Sanborn Maps for St. Louis?  I have found a bunch of sites online that do not have compete sets, or restricted access.  Thanks in advance for the help.

 

John Golden
Albersbach, Germany





Re: The UTLX X tankers

Tony Thompson
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

In part I based this on post #135723 by Elden Gatwood, as well as repeated references by others over the years on this list that ARA class II/ICC class 102  . . .


      Bruce, I've never seen any indication that the ICC takeover of the former ARA tank car standards included a class called "ICC 102." Do you have documentation on that? You are of course correct that if they HAD done so, they would have called ARA Class II by the name ICC 102.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: St. Louis Sanborn Map Reference

Paul Krueger
 

Seattle Public Library subscribes to the same or similar service, which requires a library card to access. I suspect other libraries do also.

I'm not sure the collection is 'complete', but it does offer numerous towns from all the states that have Sanborn maps.

Paul Krueger
Seattle, WA


Re: The UTLX X tankers

Steve and Barb Hile
 

UTLX did add 2000 6.5K gallon X-3 tank cars built by ACF in 1936, the first new 6.5K gallon cars since 1916-17.
 
Steve Hile



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 12:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The UTLX X tankers

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that in 1953/54 UTLX lost all their 6500 gal type V tankcars that they were disinclined to upgrade to AB brakes. It seems to me that these small ca[pacity cars were most useful in the bulk oil distributor market, where small dealers were inclined to order small quantities. I wonder if it was apparent at this time that the small dealer business was shrinking, making Union Tank Line less than interested in buying new small capacity cars.


Dennis Storzek


Re: St. Louis Sanborn Map Reference

William Hirt
 

John,

The Mid-Continent Public Library (Kansas City area - Missouri side) offers access to the complete collection of black and white Sanborn maps for the U.S.

If you are not a resident of the district, you must apply in person for a card and pay a yearly fee based on their FAQ. They also limit card issuance to U.S. addresses. I do not know if they have special rules for military members out of country.

Their web site is and you could contact someone at the library system to get more information.

Bill Hirt


On 10/30/2017 10:55 AM, John Golden golden1014@... [STMFC] wrote:
Hi Guys,

Does anyone have a link to Sanborn Maps for St. Louis?  I have found a bunch of sites online that do not have compete sets, or restricted access.  Thanks in advance for the help.
 
John Golden
Albersbach, Germany


Re: Heritage of this NYS&W car?

StephenK
 

You have a good memory.   I checked my 1991 Walther's Decal "Update" catalog and there it is.   The description says "dark green car, yellow," The car could have faded to the bluish shown on the photo, but the lettering sure looks white to me.    Of course, no Walther's decals are in stock at Walther's any more, but they do show up on EBay

Maybe this will be a long term project.....

Steve Kay


Re: The UTLX X tankers

Dennis Storzek
 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that in 1953/54 UTLX lost all their 6500 gal type V tankcars that they were disinclined to upgrade to AB brakes. It seems to me that these small ca[pacity cars were most useful in the bulk oil distributor market, where small dealers were inclined to order small quantities. I wonder if it was apparent at this time that the small dealer business was shrinking, making Union Tank Line less than interested in buying new small capacity cars.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Tichy Decals (Was Re: Decal Adhesive)

Ken Roth
 

I purchased some Tichy decals this summer, one set of which I have used.  I too was disappointed with the thickness of the lettering.  The set I used was for a "brand new paint job" DL&W boxcar which received only the slightest weathering and it worked out "okay".  I compared an SP Tank Car set from Jerry Glow which I had purchased several years ago with a newly purchased Tichy version of the same set and the new version is no where near as nice as the old set.  I experimented with lightly sanding the Tichy set with #600 wet/dry sandpaper which does reduce the thickness to a more reasonable level, but I haven't yet tried applying them to a model (they may fall apart).  Hopefully Tichy will be able to correct this problem in future printings, since there are several nice offerings not available elsewhere.

Ken Roth


St. Louis Sanborn Map Reference

golden1014
 

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have a link to Sanborn Maps for St. Louis?  I have found a bunch of sites online that do not have compete sets, or restricted access.  Thanks in advance for the help.
 
John Golden
Albersbach, Germany


Re: The UTLX X tankers

Dave Parker
 

Bruce:

We can agree that the ARA Spec II cars were restricted from carrying certain cargoes, but I remain unconvinced that the more common refinery products (gasoline, kerosene, naptha) would necessarily be on that list. 

There were a number of criteria in the 1938 ICC regs:  safety valves, manway construction, and "outage" (i.e., dome volume).  If these could me met, inflammables such as gasoline could be legally carried.  BTW, the UTLX Class X cars had dome volumes ranging from 2.3 to 3.4% of the tank volume as built, making many of them particularly suitable for inflammables.

I revisited the 125723 post, and did not see anything that contradicts the above.  I did note some language concerning war emergency standards, about which I know nothing.  It appears, however, that they were more lenient than the pre-war ICC regs, and might be of some relevance to your 1944 modeling year.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

 


On Monday, October 30, 2017 7:26 AM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Dave,

In part I based this on post #135723 by Elden Gatwood, as well as repeated references by others over the years on this list that ARA class II/ICC class 102 were restricted because of their construction from carrying certain cargos.  My point would be that the major use of tank cars post WWII was for refined petroleum products and thus the utility of a class II car would be reduced, and if you modeled one or more of these cars (as I certainly intend to do for my 1944 timeframe) then they need to be in the correct service (in my case, it’s no issue as I will have solid trains of crude oil).  

Ultimately, the question comes down to how many of these cars does a modeler need in any given era.  


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:27 PM, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce:

Do you have a reference? 

Both gasoline and kerosene are clearly allowed in Spec II cars in the 1920 ARA Specification for Tank Cars.

Many "inflammable" liquids were still permitted in Spec II cars in the 1938 ICC regs (CFR Title 49) as long as they met the pressure requirements and did not have anchored tank heads (an obsolete construction method largely gone by the teens).  Regardless, kerosene was not considered an "inflammable" at that time based on the table of such commodities in the ICC regs.

Neither Spec II or Spec III cars could be used for liquids with very high vapor pressures, although these regs were complicated because they could vary seasonally (because of temperature effects on tank pressure).  Casinghead gasoline is a good example I believe.

If things changed later on, I am not aware of it.  The 1949 version of the Title 49 regs is available on-line, but I have to confess I have not taken the time to slog through them (916 pages in all).  

Even if the use of Spec II cars for things like gasoline eventually became restricted, that would not have diminished their utility.  As Steve described, many of the surviving Class X cars in the 1955 tariff book had been retrofitted with heater coils; very useful for the more viscous commodities.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


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