Date   

Re: NYC System panel-side hoppers

 

The next step would be to inquire of the NYCSHS as to the availability of mechanical drawings for those hopper cars.  The chances are very good that the society has those drawings in their archives.


Re: Maker please

Clark Propst
 






Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:11 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"Jeffrey White" SPD120

Is it one of these Model Power cars?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ho-Scale-2-ILLINOIS-CENTRAL-40-Refrigeration-Cars-Model-Power-98262-X2/381093373405?epid=691321637&hash=item58baef65dd:g:xm4AAOSw8thZn0fp

Jeff White

That's it Jeff! Thanks!!

As I understand it you can't attached photos on this site.

Clark


Re: Paint scheme

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <staffan.ehnbom@...> wrote :

The caption for GN X5216 says "By the early 1950's the GN was painting its boxcars entirely in mineral red." They had started doing that for new cars since 1948, when their first all steel box cars were built. The last new cars to receive black roof and ends were the plywood side box cars built 1944-1948. So I would guess they stopped painting ends and roofs black on older cars in 1948, but they could perhaps have done so a few years earlier or later of course.

... One curiosity about black ends on GN cars came with the fifteen PS-1 box cars Pullman built for the GN in 1954. One wonders whether Pullman mixed  up their painting instructions with those from their latest production of GN cars in 1942.

As is often the case, nothing is completely clear.

Staffan Ehnbom
====================

The same thing happened on the Soo Line. The road stopped painting ends black on steel cars with the 1953 production of cars built at North Fond du Lac, but when they received a small run of 25 PS-1's from Pullman in 1959, they came with black ends. It's been my theory (just a theory, mind you) that black ends was P-S standard painting practice, and if the purchasing road didn't remember to specify some other color on the ends, P-S automatically applied black.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Maker please

Jeffrey White
 

On 12/12/2017 9:11 AM, cepropst@q.com [STMFC] wrote:
 

At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.


Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe

The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.

The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes  to represent a Morton RB.


Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?

Thanks! Clark propst




Re: Maker please

Charlie Vlk
 

Absent photos or definition of the car type the universe is still pretty small for ancient plastic (presume 40Ft) ice reefers….

Varney

Tyco/Mantua

KurtzKraft

Revell

Lindberg

Gilbert

Rivarossi

Lionel (??)

AHM (Rocco, others)

Marklin

Fleischmann

Penn Line (??)

John English (??)

Hobbyline (??)

A cell phone photo might provide some triggers to ID the car….

Charlie Vlk







Separate parts on a poorly detailed body casting sounds to me like someone did some after-market detailing. I also suspect after-market decaling given the white end lettering on what I assume are orange ends. Good luck finding the manufacturer.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@comcast.net [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 10:00 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Maker please



Clark

Have u heard about this amazing new invention called a CAMERA ?

If you'd post a photo I'm sure many people would instantly recognize the manufacturer.

At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.


Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe

The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.

The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes to represent a Morton RB.


Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?

Thanks! Clark propst




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Paint scheme

Staffan Ehnbom
 

The caption for GN X5216 says "By the early 1950's the GN was painting its boxcars entirely in mineral red." They had started doing that for new cars since 1948, when their first all steel box cars were built. The last new cars to receive black roof and ends were the plywood side box cars built 1944-1948. So I would guess they stopped painting ends and roofs black on older cars in 1948, but they could perhaps have done so a few years earlier or later of course.

Jared asked about May of 1943. In GNRHS reference sheet no. 28 there is a GN color chart that I would date to about 1940 as it mentions covered hoppers, which the GN received for the first time that year. The chart states for "house cars" to recieve "Freight-Car Brown" and for underframe "Box Red", whatever those are. I don't think anyone has found that out. Metal roofs and ends are black. A car in 1943 could perhaps have been repainted in the early 1930's again receiveing the 72" See America First - Glacier National Park Faceing Goat herald. Or be repainted in the later thirties with the smaller SAF -GNP faceing Goat herald although I have never seen proof of that on a USRA type of box car. An even fresher repaint could be made starting in 1941 with the SAF- GNP Side Turned Goat. But it seems it would be black roof and ends for all versions. Unless somebody else has advice one is on ones own as regards car side (and underbody) paint as I see it. There are some very nice photos of GN double wood sheath cars in 1930's schemes in Richard Hendrickson's "Focus on Freight Cars" Volume One.

So why doesn't the GN24872 on page 34 of the "GN Color Guide" seem to have have a black end if photographed in 1946?  Or is that end a dirty, weathered black one? The GN had 1000 of the USRA cars and that herald was used 1941 to 1948.

The reason we  haven't seen many GN box cars with black ends and roofs is as Todd mentioned that most photos available to us are taken in the 1960's well after the move to all mineral red was made in 1948. One curiosity about black ends on GN cars came with the fifteen PS-1 box cars Pullman built for the GN in 1954. One wonders whether Pullman mixed  up their painting instructions with those from their latest production of GN cars in 1942.

As is often the case, nothing is completely clear.

Staffan Ehnbom




 Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:17 AM, sullivant41@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Nelson, Jared -

I should have added that the photo I referred to in the Pennsy Steam Years Vol 1 is dated 1948.  I also have the GN Color Guide, and the photos of the USRA and other double sheathed cars either were taken in the 1960s, or look like they were, judging from many other photos in books and color slides in my collection.  The caption for GN X5216 states that the switch from black ends and roof occurred in the early 1950s, which seems right.  I build one of Westerfield's GN double door auto boxcar kits many years ago and painted it in the all Mineral Red scheme with a shop date of 1953, and I'm pretty certain I researched the paint change date before I painted and decaled that model.

Todd Sullivan



Re: Maker please

Richard Townsend
 

Separate parts on a poorly detailed body casting sounds to me like someone did some after-market detailing. I also suspect after-market decaling given the white end lettering on what I assume are orange ends. Good luck finding the manufacturer.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 10:00 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Maker please

 
Clark

Have u heard about this amazing new invention called a CAMERA ?

If you'd post a photo I'm sure many people would instantly recognize the manufacturer.

>At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.
>
>
>Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe
>
>The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.
>
>The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes to represent a Morton RB.
>
>
>Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?
>
>Thanks! Clark propst


Re: Maker please

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark

Have u heard about this amazing new invention called a CAMERA ?

If you'd post a photo I'm sure many people would instantly recognize the manufacturer.

At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.


Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe

The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.

The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes to represent a Morton RB.


Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?

Thanks! Clark propst


Re: NYC System panel-side hoppers

Tony Thompson
 

Charlie Smith's article should be regarded as definitive.  Charlie was chief mechanical officer of the NYC and was a founding director of the NYCSHS.  


     But the details I asked about are not clear from the article, or I would not have sent the email.

Tony Thompson




Re: Maker please

Benjamin Hom
 

Clark Propst asked:
"At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.

Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe
The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.
The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes to represent a Morton RB.

Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?"

Photo would help out a lot. Do you have a better description of the ends and roof?


Ben Hom


Maker please

Clark Propst
 

At ops last night a fella brought a reefer model he'd bought at a recent train show. No one could figure out the maker. Here's a go at describing it.


Underframe is plastic, the brake components were molded on with very little relief. Trucks had a U shape to the bolster and held on with a black Phillips head screw. The plastic (brownish) Kadee knockoffs were in a box that snapped into the underframe

The body was molded in an orange plastic, NRC/IC split rail lettering, again the molded on detail had little relief, but the placards on the sides and ends were separate parts that appeared to be painted, but didn't match the body color. The door hinges were nicely painted black. Interestingly the end lettering was white because the ends should have been brown. The brake wheel was chunky and black.

The roof ice hatches and running board were separate parts, The RB was black with very shallow holes  to represent a Morton RB.


Anyone have a guess as to which company made this car?

Thanks! Clark propst



Re: Removable loads in freight cars - stupid question

Tony Thompson
 

Lester Breuer wrote:

 

I do not use magnets for removable loads. On all my loads: coal, scrap, gravel, etc., I like to have a small hole at the corner of the load. The hole allows me to remove the loads with a dental pick that has a hook on the end which is inserted in the load hole to lift the load out of a car. Rather than a dental tool, a wire could be bent to have a hook and inserted into a handle such as a wood dowel. I have used this method for load removal for years with no frustration.


     I use exactly this method. Small edge or corner holes are invisible.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: NYC System panel-side hoppers

 

Charlie Smith's article should be regarded as definitive.  Charlie was chief mechanical officer of the NYC and was a founding director of the NYCSHS.  Hugh T Guillaume, former director NYCSHS.


Re: Removable loads in freight cars - stupid question

Jared Harper
 

My solution is live loads.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Paint scheme

Todd Sullivan
 

Hmmmm, I just looked at the reweigh date on GN 24872, and it is clearly 5-8-44, so I stand corrected, and I guess you have your choice of schemes, Jared.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Paint scheme

Todd Sullivan
 

Nelson, Jared -

I should have added that the photo I referred to in the Pennsy Steam Years Vol 1 is dated 1948.  I also have the GN Color Guide, and the photos of the USRA and other double sheathed cars either were taken in the 1960s, or look like they were, judging from many other photos in books and color slides in my collection.  The caption for GN X5216 states that the switch from black ends and roof occurred in the early 1950s, which seems right.  I build one of Westerfield's GN double door auto boxcar kits many years ago and painted it in the all Mineral Red scheme with a shop date of 1953, and I'm pretty certain I researched the paint change date before I painted and decaled that model.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Removable loads in freight cars - stupid question

 

Hi Rick,

  I use the wire hook method. Yep... old school... but simple and cost effective. I use floral wire off a spool.  I drill a hole through the load... insert wire and bend to a hook or "u" shape... pull wire so it touches the load... nip off the bottom leaving about an inch of wire... bend and super glue to underside of load. Heavily spray paint the top of the load to match the type of load and coat... with gravel in your case. The hook is nearly invisible. I use bamboo skewers to uncouple my cars so these are readily available on the layout and work great to lift out the removable loads. So far none of my operators have noticed the wire hooks or found them intrusive.

Gordon Spalty
   


Re: ACF LOT NUMBERS

Dave Parker
 

I am not advocating this as a value purchase; it is what it is:



There are a lot of photos, but the quality is meh.  For some lots, much better images are available in the ACF folder in the Barriger collection at UMSL. 

The advantage of having the lot list is, once you think you found something of interest, you can search the Barriger collection by ACF lot number.  AFAIK, that is the only way it can be searched.

And, if you want to try and coax an image out of Nick Fry, I believe having the lot number in hand is the way to go.

As always, YMMV.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



On Monday, December 11, 2017 2:50 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
Bill McCoy wrote:

 
Is there a source with lot numbers and the railroads the lots went to available for ACF cars?

Do you want a specific car or cars identified, or do you want the list? I have a Xerox list, about three inches thick, which I think came from Ed Hawkins.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Re: ACF LOT NUMBERS

Tony Thompson
 

Bill McCoy wrote:

 
Is there a source with lot numbers and the railroads the lots went to available for ACF cars?

Do you want a specific car or cars identified, or do you want the list? I have a Xerox list, about three inches thick, which I think came from Ed Hawkins.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Paint scheme

Nelson Moyer
 

I’m no expert on the GN, but I have the Morning Sun GN Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, and page 34 has a lovely color photo of GN 24872. The caption states that it is a 1919 USRA boxcar photographed in 1946. The car has Murphy 5/5/5 ends, seven rung side ladders, six rung end ladders with drop grab irons on the stiles, wood door, and Andrews trucks. There are two drop grab irons on the left side. Sill steps are Type A slanted outward. The end sill grab irons are mounted under the sill and drop straight down. The car has a wood running board and top mounted uncoupling levers. The car is painted mineral red on all surfaces including the trucks. None of the wood boxcars pictured had black ends or roofs.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 7:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Paint scheme

 

 

Hi Jared,

I'm fairly certain that the GN's boxcar colors in 1943 were Mineral Red sides and underframe, trucks, etc., and black roof and ends.  Westerfield's painting instructions for their GN DS trussrod boxcars says Roof Brown sides, Black roof and ends, and "boxcar red" underframe and trucks. 

However, Floquil's Roof Brown is really brown with almost no red tint to it, and there's a photo in the Morning Sun book, "Pennsy Steam Years [Volume] 1" on page 91 that has a newly painted GN DS trussrod boxcar in it that is clearly much more red than Floquil Roof Brown.  From that photo, it looks much more like Mineral Red sides and perhaps a browner 'boxcar red' for the underframe and trucks - the underbody color is a bit harder to tell.  The other colors in the photo (locos, buildings, track, signal lights) seem pretty close to reality, so I doubt there's much color shift in the photo.

I hope this helps, and I hope other GN experts chime in.

Todd Sullivan

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