Date   

Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Jim Betz
 

Tony,

  Yes, you're right ... sort of ... in that even I spend -some- time
getting the base color right (before the weathering).  However,
I don't spend a lot of time on it, don't have a table of paint
mixes that I use, and rarely "reject" a car because it has the
"wrong color of paint" (because I can always "fix" it with
the weathering.  I'm much more concerned about how it is
lettered, weathered, detailed, etc.  I like end numbers.  I
like metal grabs.  I like thin roof walks.  I like sprung trucks
(because they operate, not for how they look).  I like air
hoses ... yes, even if they are hanging in space - because
the time when I "notice" the air hoses is when I can see
the end of the car because it isn't coupled to another.

  But I don't spend a lot of time on the color of BCR - and
"could care less" describes my approach if you are
comparing what I do to anyone who tries/wants to use
Pantone numbers.  But yes, I do have ... in my mind's
eye ... the right starting point for GN, SP&S, SP, ATSF,
PRR, UP, NYC, etc., etc., etc. BCR (and a LOT of those
are, for me at least, indistinguishable).

  Because, for me, "every car is different".  I custom weather
each car and not only vary the amount of weathering but
also the methods, the order I do the steps, whether it is
all washes or I add in some airbrushing, etc., etc.

  So my phrase "I don't get it" when it comes to using
Pantone numbers is actually closer to what I'm doing/my
methods than anything else ...
- Jim


Re: Accurail "Scale" Coupler Boxes

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <jimhayes97225@...> wrote :

I too am running low. I have maybe 3 or 4 sets left.

Hey Accurail! When are you going to have more of your great Proto:HO couplers & boxes?

============================
I'm poking at production... looks like I have to poke harder.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Bill Welch
 

A clinic would be great, new blood and subject matter is always welcome I think at RPMs.

Bill Welch


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Tony Thompson
 

It's important to recognize that the Pantone system is NOT intended to be used as a way to match some arbitrary color. It is intended to provide a set of standard colors (the Pantone color numbers) that any printer in the world can match, by mixing the prescribed percentages of standard Pantone Basic Color inks. So for example, Pantone 555C is made by mixing 50 percent Pantone Yellow and 50 percent Pantone Reflex Blue. It's just a standard color, not necessarily a match to YOUR desired color. It's only luck when YOUR freight car color happens to match a Pantone color.

Paint chips are a far better way to get a desired paint color, for example with a manufacturer. They aren't going to mix Pantone inks anyway. Giving them a Pantone number really just leads them to a paint chip of that Pantone color, NOT the color you want.

I have worked with Pantone specs for years in book printing, where it works just fine.

BTW: Munsell? Art teachers love it, because it clarifies the way an artist needs to see color space. But any working artist has long forgotten those schoolroom experiences.Try asking any artist over 30 to explain Munsell to you.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Tim O'Connor
 


Some factors -

1. the planned age of the paint of the car on your layout - will it be new,
   five years old, ten years old, etc. A new car is usually one you want to
   be as close to the real color as possible

2. existing models of the same type and age on your layout - will it fit in
   with them? The older the paint jobs, the less likely they are to appear to
   be exactly the same color

3. lighting on your layout. weak light? you may want to use lighter colors.




Jim Betz wrote:

 I simply don't get it why guys continue to search for the "correct"
color(s) - especially here on this list.
Yes, you do, Jim, and you said it yourself. We want a starting point for weathering, etc., which is in the ballpark of the prototype color. "Nuff said.

Tony Thompson


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Frank Grimm <fddms@...>
 

Jim
Very well said...I have been in the paint industry for 35 years and can tell you that Pantone color standards, munsel standards and RAL standards have expirations. So, the people who say they have an original color chip probably have the wrong color unless it was sprayed in the last few years.
Also, all these standard are applied to paper, last I checked, there is not a lot of paper railroad equipment.
Substrate can effect the color vastly. A primered surface will look different than a sandblasted surface.
I could go on forever but will leave with one more thought: the amount of paint applied (thickness of paint is measured in mils) can have a huge effect on color, fade resistance and durability.
Again, I could do a clinic on this....
Frank Grimm
Sandwich, IL


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

 I simply don't get it why guys continue to search for the "correct"
color(s) - especially here on this list.

Yes, you do, Jim, and you said it yourself. We want a starting point for weathering, etc., which is in the ballpark of the prototype color. "Nuff said.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Randy Hees
 

Andrew Brandon and I have been doing paint research of mostly 19th century western narrow gauge equipment and buildings, and issuing color cards with PMS numbers... one example can be found at 


We are currently working on a card for early box car reds as used by Central Pacific (CS 11, Metalic) UP (Rawlins Red) Tuscan red as used by the Carter Brothers and others, and Prince's paint (a brown...) used by D&RG, ATSF   and many others... 

Printing color cards on a computer printer is not ideal unless the printer is carefully calibrated... but it is a way to transmit information.

Our color matches are based on forensic research on existing cars, on contemporary paint samples.

Randy Hees


Re: Accurail "Scale" Coupler Boxes

Jim Hayes
 

I too am running low. I have maybe 3 or 4 sets left.

Hey Accurail! When are you going to have more of your great Proto:HO couplers & boxes?

Jim🚂🤔

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

John

Another coupler box you might consider is the Moloco "standard" coupler box
(not the cushion gear boxes) that are very similar in size to the Accurail boxes
and they take Kadee whisker couplers. I have used both Molocos and Accurail boxes
on some Atlas freight cars with those giant boxes they have, and they're quite
similar in appearance once they're installed.

Tim O'




Does anyone have any of those Accurail scale coupler boxes?  They are sold out at Accurail and on eBay.  I am in need of a few for a project.  If you have some you cane part with please give me a shout offline at Golden1014@....

Thanks Guys,

John Golden



Re: Accurail "Scale" Coupler Boxes

Tim O'Connor
 

John

Another coupler box you might consider is the Moloco "standard" coupler box
(not the cushion gear boxes) that are very similar in size to the Accurail boxes
and they take Kadee whisker couplers. I have used both Molocos and Accurail boxes
on some Atlas freight cars with those giant boxes they have, and they're quite
similar in appearance once they're installed.

Tim O'




Does anyone have any of those Accurail scale coupler boxes?  They are sold out at Accurail and on eBay.  I am in need of a few for a project.  If you have some you cane part with please give me a shout offline at Golden1014@....

Thanks Guys,

John Golden


Re: Paint Booth

Jim Hayes
 

I woke up this morning to a dead monitor. I eventually took a trip to Best Buy and bought a replacement. Larger of course (27"). I'm finally back on line and can answer Bill's question.

I bought my booth from eBay. It was this one www.youtube.com/watch?v=52rBeVFAJzE . I paid less than $100 for mine and I'm quite happy with it though the fan is noisier than my compressor which I bought at the same time and was advertised as 'quiet' and is. I keep and use my booth and compressor on a little wheeled table in my bedroom. I use Vallejo paints almost exclusively and notice no odor at all.

Jim🚂

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


My Paasche booth is all galvanized metal and is 24" x 18" - evidently the
design has changed somewhat, and the price has GREATLY increased (although
I suspect you can find a good discount from a dealer if you shop carefully).
I certainly didn't pay anywhere near this much!

http://www.paascheairbrush.com/products/spray-booths/hobby-spray-booths/HSSB-22-16

Tim O'Connor



This is the paint booth I referred in my original response to you: http://www.paascheairbrush.com/products/spray-booths/hobby-spray-booths/HB-16-13

Several venders sell it.

Bill Welch



Accurail "Scale" Coupler Boxes

golden1014
 

Merry Christmas All,

Does anyone have any of those Accurail scale coupler boxes?  They are sold out at Accurail and on eBay.  I am in need of a few for a project.  If you have some you cane part with please give me a shout offline at Golden1014@....

Thanks Guys,

John Golden
Albersbach, Germany




Re: Paint Booth

Tim O'Connor
 


My Paasche booth is all galvanized metal and is 24" x 18" - evidently the
design has changed somewhat, and the price has GREATLY increased (although
I suspect you can find a good discount from a dealer if you shop carefully).
I certainly didn't pay anywhere near this much!

http://www.paascheairbrush.com/products/spray-booths/hobby-spray-booths/HSSB-22-16

Tim O'Connor



This is the paint booth I referred in my original response to you: http://www.paascheairbrush.com/products/spray-booths/hobby-spray-booths/HB-16-13

Several venders sell it.

Bill Welch


Re: Paint Booth

Bill Welch
 

This is the paint booth I referred in my original response to you: http://www.paascheairbrush.com/products/spray-booths/hobby-spray-booths/HB-16-13

Several venders sell it.

Bill Welch


Re: paint booth

Douglas Harding
 

Having woodworking skills and tools, I built mine out of ½” plywood which I had on hand and a used Grainger style fan/motor that was a sparkless design and cost me less than $20. I included a slot at the back for a standard size furnace filter. The top is Plexiglas with an 18” “undercounter” florescent light. I painted the interior white. Repaint it as needed. I use flexible metal (don’t’ use the plastic kind) 4” duct pipe (ie dryer vent pipe) to a window insert. Had a local furnace guy make the sheet metal connection for the fan. Have used it for years. Today I paint with acrylics, so the fumes are no long an issue. The motor and 4” flexible metal pipe were the biggest expense.

 

At a recent airbrush demonstration I took a 3cube cardboard box (18”x18”)and a 20” box fan with 20” furnace filter. Folded the bottom flaps back, set it on its side,  place the filter between the box and the fan, so air is sucked through the box. Couple of strips of tape and my “paint booth” was ready. Again this was for acrylic paint so the fumes were not an issue, just suck the air through the filter to capture paint particles.

 

If painting with enamel or lacquer paints, ie Floquil, Scalecoat, etc.,  make sure you exhaust the fumes outside, use a fan that does not put sparks in the airflow, and wear a good respirator.

 

Your paint booth does not have to be fancy. Just make sure it operates safely and does the job.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Garth Groff or Sally Sanford <sarahsan@...>
 

Jim,

I agree with everything you said, and considered some of your points myself.

Especially for early railroad-applied paint, at least some of it was sold as dry pigment and was mixed with linseed or other oils in the shop when needed. It might have turned out quite differently from batch to batch. In the case of the Sacramento Northern, they apparently inherited a lot of yellow-orange ("poppy") paint from predecessor Northern Electric Railway when they took over in 1918. This was still hanging around shortly after WWII and was used to brush-paint orange scare stripes on their electric locomotives. When one of their GE steeple cabs was donated to the Perris Museum, it was repainted with WP's much orangier "Zephyr orange" that was used on SN diesels. This became the standard lens through which modelers have judged the color ever since, even though the paint on the two other surviving units at the Western Railway Museum was more yellow. Go figure.

Anyway,
I'm not exactly after the "right" color. I was still hoping that somebody had Pantone numbers for the colors AC&F and Pullman used, as mentioned in Pat's article. Then I could at least see if any of the sprays ArtPrimo sells would be useful. Something has to be better than "Rustoleum 249086", "Benjamin Moore Red 490" or any of the other 50 red-brown primer colors that I have collected. (Yes, I have 52 self-made sample cards in a file box, and a closet full of spray cans to match).

It seems I have stirred up a hornets' nest, and everybody's are going in different directions. (Sigh!) Maybe I should just give up and concentrate on freelanced English narrow gauge. Then I can use whatever gray I want.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 12/27/17 12:45 PM, jimbetz jimbetz@... wrote:
 

Garth and all,

  Respectfully ... please read to the end.  ;-)

  I simply don't get it why guys continue to search for the "correct"
color(s) -
especially here on this list.

  Let me explain why I say that ... I've studied literally dozens of
color photos
with the goal of answering just this very question ("why").  Every time I do
so I come up with ===> there is no such thing as "the perfect shade of
____".
Because ... even looking at a few photos I see differences in the color of a
particular pair of cars (photos) that are "painted in the same scheme and
for the same RR and at the same time".
  In addition - when you toss in the variables of how many years its been
since the piece of equipment was painted, how the shops acquired
their paints (STMFC shops -usually- mixed their own paint, especially
when the color was "some shade of freight car red"), lighting, the
process of producing a color photo in a publication, etc., etc., etc.
It just seems "futile" (to me) to try to use something like Pantone
numbers.  And let's not forget to mention the paints we have
available to us, the size of the models we are painting ... etc., etc.,
etc.
  You can literally spend/waste a lot of time - searching for the
"correct color".

  I have a number of pertinent questions to those of you that
feel that there is a way to use Pantone numbers (or any other
form of "color correctness"):

  1) Will you be weathering the car after you paint it?
  2) What lighting will the model be viewed under - and is
       that the same as the lighting you are using when you
       are comparing the paint you are using to Pantone/what ever?
  3) Is it really important?  For freight car red/brown/tuscan?

                                         ****

  Having said all of the above - I will also acknowledge that there
is/was a difference between Pennsy box car red and Santa Fe
(pick any two or more RRs you want to use).  Some of the
differences are significant - others are very subtle/hard to
say if there really was a difference.

  And I -do- try to use a shade of paint that is close to what
I consider to be "representative of the road I'm working on".

  Yes, as soon as you start talking about colors other than
BCR you end up with what -seems/feels- like it needs to
be "correct" ... and I agree that I take more care with those
colors/shades than I do with BCR ... but I still take what I
consider to be a practical approach which is to acknowledge
to myself that "I -am- going to weather it" ...

  ===> I'm not saying "don't pay ANY attention to color" - I'm
            saying "get it as close as you can, by eye, and let the
            entire concept of "the _perfect/correct_ shade" go.

                                                                  -
respectfully ... Jim B.



Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Jim Betz
 

Garth and all,

  Respectfully ... please read to the end.  ;-)

  I simply don't get it why guys continue to search for the "correct" color(s) -
especially here on this list.

  Let me explain why I say that ... I've studied literally dozens of color photos
with the goal of answering just this very question ("why").  Every time I do
so I come up with ===> there is no such thing as "the perfect shade of ____".
Because ... even looking at a few photos I see differences in the color of a
particular pair of cars (photos) that are "painted in the same scheme and
for the same RR and at the same time".
  In addition - when you toss in the variables of how many years its been
since the piece of equipment was painted, how the shops acquired
their paints (STMFC shops -usually- mixed their own paint, especially
when the color was "some shade of freight car red"), lighting, the
process of producing a color photo in a publication, etc., etc., etc.
It just seems "futile" (to me) to try to use something like Pantone
numbers.  And let's not forget to mention the paints we have
available to us, the size of the models we are painting ... etc., etc.,
etc.
  You can literally spend/waste a lot of time - searching for the
"correct color".

  I have a number of pertinent questions to those of you that
feel that there is a way to use Pantone numbers (or any other
form of "color correctness"):

  1) Will you be weathering the car after you paint it?
  2) What lighting will the model be viewed under - and is
       that the same as the lighting you are using when you
       are comparing the paint you are using to Pantone/what ever?
  3) Is it really important?  For freight car red/brown/tuscan?

                                         ****

  Having said all of the above - I will also acknowledge that there
is/was a difference between Pennsy box car red and Santa Fe
(pick any two or more RRs you want to use).  Some of the
differences are significant - others are very subtle/hard to
say if there really was a difference.

  And I -do- try to use a shade of paint that is close to what
I consider to be "representative of the road I'm working on".

  Yes, as soon as you start talking about colors other than
BCR you end up with what -seems/feels- like it needs to
be "correct" ... and I agree that I take more care with those
colors/shades than I do with BCR ... but I still take what I
consider to be a practical approach which is to acknowledge
to myself that "I -am- going to weather it" ...

  ===> I'm not saying "don't pay ANY attention to color" - I'm
            saying "get it as close as you can, by eye, and let the
            entire concept of "the _perfect/correct_ shade" go.

                                                                  - respectfully ... Jim B.


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Bruce Smith
 

​Pantone sucks, Munsell rocks.  More people need to learn Greek ;)  When the PRRT&HS Paint Committee was working on basic colors, the chair of the committee, a retired paint chemist, pushed us to use the Munsell system, which we did. He basically states that it was the only descriptive system for paint that actually worked to completely describe a color The biggest problem is both the lack of generalized use and the expense of generating samples ($10 per 8 x 10 sheet). I would also note, that in my experience working with manufacturers, even Pantone doesn't really work with the Chinese manufacturers.  They need color drift card samples to match to. It is also possible to find programs that convert Munsell numbers to other systems, although the free ones on line seem to have disappeared.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of destorzek@... [STMFC]
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 9:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints
 A much better system for this work would be Munsell, which has more colors, but NOBODY has a Munsell reference book, so it's kinda like being the only guy in the room that speaks Greek... you know it, but it doesn't do you much good.


Dennis Storzek


Re: Pantone Numbers for Railroad Paints

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

 

Biggest problem with the Pantone system is not enough colors. It's great if you are designing from scratch; specify Pantone 484C, call it Oxide Red, and all is good. Doesn't work so well if you are trying to match to something else... if 484C doesn't match, you're out of luck, because there are no other similar colors. There are several purple-ish browns that could be various shades of freight car red, but I doubt they exactly match any current model paint, or any historical drift cards, either.


Quite true. But an art professional will look at, say, Pantone 123C and say, "well, it's got 10 percent red, let's go with 13 percent," and you are darn close. That can be done with book printers, as I have seen close-up, even if I can't do it.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Lackawanna steam film with sound - 1929

Todd Sullivan
 

According to one DL&W expert, the multi-chime airhorns on the Poconos were replaced with single chime horns shortly after delivery of the locos.  He did not know the reason. 

Todd Sullivan

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