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Re: More reefers
Tony Thompson
As always, Jim Dick's actual railroad data are most interesting and valuable. His conclusion about reefer demand in northern-belt states is especially noteworthy.
Just for contrast, let me offer comparable data for PFE (most of this is in the PFE book). PFE's peak season got underway about June and ran well into October. During most of that time, the huge PFE fleet of almost 40,000 cars was insufficient for the traffic, and borrowed foreign cars were extensively used, to the extent of about a fourth of all carloads being carried in foreigns. These were predominantly ART though many other owners were represented also. Of course PFE did have heavy traffic the rest of the year, but normally it could be handled with their own cars. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: More reefers
Randy you cite 1915-1928. I believe this was a period when boxcars were still not water tight, ie lots of leaky roofs, and covered hoppers had not yet been introduced. Reefers on the other hand were water tight, as their contents could not be contaminated by outside weather. Plaster had to be protected from water. A drippy roof was not acceptable for shipping plaster, hence a reefer would be the preferred car for shipping plaster.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 8:45 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: More reefers
I was surprised to find PFE (and a few Santa Fe) reefers being used to carry plaster from Arden in Las Vegas to Los Angeles destinations in the 1915-1928 period. Per Union Pacific depot records they dominated the trade. Photos show reefers on the plaster plant's loading track. On those occasions that shipments went east box cars were used. The plaster in question was fine house grade. I suspect that with Las Vegas only a week round trip away, that they were keeping the cars close but busy with a "clean" cargo. Randy Hees Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City
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Re: More reefers
Jim, some great comments, backed up with specific document citations.
RE the strong reefer demand in northern states during the winter months, I think we often forget that reefers were also used in heater service. Charcoal or kerosene heaters were placed in the bunkers to keep contents from freezing during winter months. After the past few weeks of well below zero temps and today’s blizzard where you and I live, it is easy to understand how a load of beverages or canned goods would not survive if shipped in a standard boxcar. Those loads need protection from freezing. And reefers were insulated, which kept content cool in summer months using ice and protected them from freezing in winter months using heaters. This would lead to strong reefer demand even in winter months. At least until the advent of the insulated boxcar, which did not come into wide spread use until the end of this list’s interests.
Here is a photo of a charcoal heater being placed into an ice bunker on a reefer https://www.loc.gov/item/owi2001016251/PP/ Photo of an IC charcoal heater http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/22049/20573348_1.jpg?v=8D1A26598BF6FB0 Placard waring of a heater in the car http://discussions.mnhs.org/collections/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/1995_137_10.jpg And Tony’s blog on placards that contains a photo of a CGW charcoal heater placard http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2013/11/placards-house-cars-prototype-part-2.html And here are some 3D printed HO charcoal and kerosene heaters http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/20512
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 7:24 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: More reefers
Again, as I have presented on this data at Chicagoland and CCB prior, and also posted exerts here, is some factual data on reefer carloading. Please note, and this was an eye opener to me when I first observed it, reefers are busiest in winter, not summer, while used in Protective Service. Comments extracted from AAR Data 1956-1957 found within the Northern Pacific Corporate files located at the Minnesota Historical Society, St. Paul, MN. • January 20, 1956 - No surplus of reefers noted in any loading districts. The shipping of canned and bottled goods, cheese, PHP, and merchandise other than perishables is strong. Potato shipments are strong. (Red River Valley, Maine, Idaho.) • February 20, 1956 - “Northern-Belt states” heavy and strong use of reefers in protected service continues. Potato shipments maintain a strong presence. Banana shipments strong. (Northern Belt states are listed as “north of Mason-Dixie Line”. So above Arizona, Oklahoma, Arkansas. As these are AAR reports, it does not address use in Canada other than mentioning numerous times over the two years of reports found, the large number of Canadian cars in the US and the overriding need to return them, however this is about reefers so that is another future string.) • March 20, 1956 - Northern belt states use of reefers remains strong and because of that, there are car shortages and delayed car placement being reported in the southwest. (This month is the ONLY month that the “car shortages” comment is seen.) • March 1957 note – “Therefore, all refrigerators will be in service at that time.” OK, to put this comment in context, normally about five percent of all reefers are cycled through routine repairs each month. Not this month. Private car owners may be exempt however I am trying to keep this in a general context. • April 20, 1956 - First weeks of April movements of refrigerator cars not as heavy as prior months. “No surplus of cars however all demands are being met.” Non-perishable reefer carloadings 1st quarter of year are 77,047. • May 21, 1956 - “ The heaviest demands for refrigerator cars normally shifts from the Northern-Belt States to the Southeastern, Gulf, and Southwestern states during April and May.” • June 20, 1956 - “There has been practically no letup in the demand for refrigerator cars since the first week in January. Market demand for potatoes became strong during movements of the old potato crops from Maine and Idaho, and continues strong for new potatoes loading from California and Arizona.” • July 1956 - “52,458 carloads of perishables expected to originate in Arizona and California in the 4 week period, June 16 to July 7th, therefore a good westbound movement of SFRD and PFE cars must continue if these demands are to be met.” (For more on this – get the PFE book, supplement it with the MDT book.) • September 20, 1956 - 57,689 cars were fresh fruits and vegetables, and remainder (67,667) are frozen foods and food products in cans and packages. • October 25, 1956 - Increasing demands for reefers signal the end of the summer low loading season. The time for reefers to be called to haul perishables other than fresh, is at hand. • December 20, 1956 - Stored fruit steady out of PNW area and other zones. Northern states put demands on protected service and perishables other than fresh fruit and vegetables. Comments based on observations of the above: Applied to this list, if you want to see all your reefers working, model Feb/March in a northern belt state. Really. Why not mid to late summer? All those farmers’ fruit and vegetable stands DID have a tangible documentable effect on national reefer movements. (And in concert – our modeling of railroading. And is one of several reasons I chose to model late fall [Sept-Oct.] of 1953.) In 1957, most of these 1956 numbers drop about 10 percent to adverse weather starting in January and continuing through most of the year. some numbers - Jim Dick - Roseville, MN
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Reefers
Paul Catapano
Tony, Not "Really?" but Really?!*, can't you hear the way I'm saying it? As with a traffic cop's being deemed experts on traffic at court, I am willing to stipulate that You are the expert of PFE reefers on the STMFC. I happily, willingly, stand corrected. Paul Catapano
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Re: More reefers
Randy Hees
I was surprised to find PFE (and a few Santa Fe) reefers being used to carry plaster from Arden in Las Vegas to Los Angeles destinations in the 1915-1928 period. Per Union Pacific depot records they dominated the trade. Photos show reefers on the plaster plant's loading track. On those occasions that shipments went east box cars were used. The plaster in question was fine house grade. I suspect that with Las Vegas only a week round trip away, that they were keeping the cars close but busy with a "clean" cargo.
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Re: More reefers
np328
Again, as I have presented on this data at Chicagoland and CCB prior, and also posted exerts here, is some factual data on reefer carloading. Please note, and this was an eye opener to me when I first observed it, reefers are busiest in winter, not summer, while used in Protective Service. Comments extracted from AAR Data 1956-1957 found within the Northern Pacific Corporate files located at the Minnesota Historical Society, St. Paul, MN. • January 20, 1956 - No surplus of reefers noted in any loading districts. The shipping of canned and bottled goods, cheese, PHP, and merchandise other than perishables is strong. Potato shipments are strong. (Red River Valley, Maine, Idaho.) • February 20, 1956 - “Northern-Belt states” heavy and strong use of reefers in protected service continues. Potato shipments maintain a strong presence. Banana shipments strong. (Northern Belt states are listed as “north of Mason-Dixie Line”. So above Arizona, Oklahoma, Arkansas. As these are AAR reports, it does not address use in Canada other than mentioning numerous times over the two years of reports found, the large number of Canadian cars in the US and the overriding need to return them, however this is about reefers so that is another future string.) • March 20, 1956 - Northern belt states use of reefers remains strong and because of that, there are car shortages and delayed car placement being reported in the southwest. (This month is the ONLY month that the “car shortages” comment is seen.) • March 1957 note – “Therefore, all refrigerators will be in service at that time.” OK, to put this comment in context, normally about five percent of all reefers are cycled through routine repairs each month. Not this month. Private car owners may be exempt however I am trying to keep this in a general context. • April 20, 1956 - First weeks of April movements of refrigerator cars not as heavy as prior months. “No surplus of cars however all demands are being met.” Non-perishable reefer carloadings 1st quarter of year are 77,047. • May 21, 1956 - “ The heaviest demands for refrigerator cars normally shifts from the Northern-Belt States to the Southeastern, Gulf, and Southwestern states during April and May.” • June 20, 1956 - “There has been practically no letup in the demand for refrigerator cars since the first week in January. Market demand for potatoes became strong during movements of the old potato crops from Maine and Idaho, and continues strong for new potatoes loading from California and Arizona.” • July 1956 - “52,458 carloads of perishables expected to originate in Arizona and California in the 4 week period, June 16 to July 7th, therefore a good westbound movement of SFRD and PFE cars must continue if these demands are to be met.” (For more on this – get the PFE book, supplement it with the MDT book.) • September 20, 1956 - 57,689 cars were fresh fruits and vegetables, and remainder (67,667) are frozen foods and food products in cans and packages. • October 25, 1956 - Increasing demands for reefers signal the end of the summer low loading season. The time for reefers to be called to haul perishables other than fresh, is at hand. • December 20, 1956 - Stored fruit steady out of PNW area and other zones. Northern states put demands on protected service and perishables other than fresh fruit and vegetables. Comments based on observations of the above: Applied to this list, if you want to see all your reefers working, model Feb/March in a northern belt state. Really. Why not mid to late summer? All those farmers’ fruit and vegetable stands DID have a tangible documentable effect on national reefer movements. (And in concert – our modeling of railroading. And is one of several reasons I chose to model late fall [Sept-Oct.] of 1953.) In 1957, most of these 1956 numbers drop about 10 percent to adverse weather starting in January and continuing through most of the year. some numbers - Jim Dick - Roseville, MN
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Re: Fowler car question
Ray Breyer
I didn't run across any evidence of a Fowler stock car conversion in US service when I reviewed the new Accurail cars. Lots of MOW conversions and a few coke cars, but no stock cars. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Monday, January 22, 2018, 3:37:58 PM CST, 'Dave Nelson' Lake_Muskoka@... [STMFC] wrote:
Did any of the American owners of Fowler cars or their clones ever convert any of those cars into stockcars? I know CP and CN did and I’ve seen a few photos from US roads that might have been converted Fowlers but I don’t recall ever hearing a definitive statement on the question. Thanks! Dave Nelson
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Something different for eBay
Clark Propst
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Fowler car question
Dave Nelson
Did any of the American owners of Fowler cars or their clones ever convert any of those cars into stockcars? I know CP and CN did and I’ve seen a few photos from US roads that might have been converted Fowlers but I don’t recall ever hearing a definitive statement on the question.
Thanks!
Dave Nelson
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Re: More reefers
Jack Mullen
Paul said:
"... that produce reefers hauled a lot (by "a lot" I mean nearly 50% of their loads) of canned goods." That statement may be valid in the later steam era for the Midwest where canned veggies were (and are) a big business, but as has already been said by SMEs, PFE and SFRD were dominated by fresh produce. Regional differences are as important as era in understanding reefer traffic, and national aggregates and ratios probably won't describe any individual carrier's traffic well. Jack Mullen
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Re: Scalecoat II Color suggestions for 1949 ATSF BX-12 raised roof.
Pierre Oliver
Scalecoat now offers a ATSF Mineral Brown which is nigh on
perfect, and a copy of the old Floquil color Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com On 2018-01-22 12:31 PM,
repairman87@... [STMFC] wrote:
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Scalecoat II Color suggestions for 1949 ATSF BX-12 raised roof.
Scott
Hello,
Looking for suggestions for paint colors from scalecoat to paint a 1949 BX-12 raised roof. I am putting in an order for the next few resin cars I have waiting to be built. Thank you Scott McDonald
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Re: More reefers (Canned Goods)
thecitrusbelt@...
That may have been true (50% canned goods loads) after ice bunker reefers were no longer required to be iced in route (circa 1973) but pretty much all the SFRD data I have seen is similar to what Tony mentioned. Dates need to be associated with statistical statements. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: More reefers
Tony Thompson
Paul Catapano wrote:
"Really?" They are PFE statistics, you can look them up in the PFE book for yourself. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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More reefers
Paul Catapano
Tony, You wrote: Um, no. Non-produce was about 15 percent of PFE's total traffic Really? You are most likely right, but I seem to recall somewhere, of course I can't remember where, that produce reefers hauled a lot (by "a lot" I mean nearly 50% of their loads) of canned goods. My numbers may come from SFRD but I cannot swear to it. Paul Catapano
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SFRD Circular
Paul Catapano
The file is posted to our files section. It is 125 pages long, but the commodities are listed starting on page 12. It also lists those items PROHIBITED from being transported in SFRD reefers. It is listed in the files section under the following name: Paul Catapano
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6650 - GTW 58300 Series Autocar - appropriate trucks?
Robert kirkham
I am slowly moving this kit to conclusion but have not yet found a proto photo, so am taking my chances on some elements. One thing I’d like to get right is the trucks I put under it. I seem to be missing information in the instructions, but the Mainline
Modeller drawing appears to show Andrews trucks.
Does anyone have more specific info on what trucks are appropriate for these cars?
Rob Kirkham
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New file uploaded to STMFC
STMFC@...
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC group. File : /SFRD Circular 2-L April 1955.pdf Uploaded by : atlanticinlandrailway <pc66ot@sbcglobal.net> Description : SFRD Circular 4/1955 You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/files/SFRD%20Circular%202-L%20April%201955.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, atlanticinlandrailway <pc66ot@sbcglobal.net>
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2018 Savannah RPM
seaboard_1966
Well guys, its that time of the year again. Time for me to start spreading the word about the Savannah RPM. We have a new date and a new location for this years meet. After years of being at the Port Wentworth Community Center we are moving. The new meet location is While Bluff Presbyterian Church, 10710 White Bluff Road, Savannah, Georgia. The dates for this years meet are Friday April 13th and Saturday April 14th. The new facility offers several improvements over the Community Center. There are individual rooms available to us for Clinics, Displays, Vendors, etc. This will make set up much easier. There are also plenty of tables and chairs on site so that our Macon Gang doesn't have to bring them down with them. The cost for the meet remains $25.00 for the weekend. Those that present clinics get in for free. Speaking of Clinics,, we are always looking for clinicians. The topic can be anything model railroading related. This includes model building and its various aspects, prototype information and research is most welcome as well. If you have a talent, others will be interested in it. You dont need to be MMR to present a clinic, just knowledgeable. We present our clinic digitally as well. For those interested in presenting a clinic, please contact Ken Preston at Ken.preston@.... Thanks We have made arrangements at the Marriott Spring Hill Suites Midtown 11317 Abercorn Street Savannah, GA. Reservations must be made by March 29th and cancellation must be made 72 hours before your scheduled check in. Please be sure to bring plenty of models to display as they are what the meet is all about. Also, bring friends, the more the merrier and we will be glad to have you there. Again, dates, April 13-14, 9am to 5pm. Slide/movies shows after the meet each night. Door prizes to be awarded Saturday after lunch. You must be present to win. Cost, $25.00 for the weekend. No daily rates available For more information please feel free to contact me, Denis Blake, at seaboard_1966@... Thanks Denis Blake
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Re: Meat Reefers - Backhaul Freight
Tony Thompson
Paul Catapano wrote:
Um, no. Non-produce was about 15 percent of PFE's total traffic (don't have data for other lines). In the early 1950s, fruit was 28 percent, vegetables 57 percent, and all would be regarded as perishable. That 15 percent was stuff really traveling in reefers playing the role of insulated boxcars (then an emerging car type), such as packaged beverages, canned or packaged food, frozen food, and dry goods such as crackers. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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