Date   
Re: Armstrong Cork/Linoleum tank cars

Dave Parker
 

Bruce:

I am not an AC&F expert, and maybe someone like Ted can weigh in.  But, my understanding, largely from Kaminski's book (the tank car edition), is that the standardized Type 11, 21, 27, etc., only refers to the frame design, not the tank.  Second, if you scan the AC&F lot lists, you can see a number of references to transitional types (19, 20, 25, 26, etc.) that never became "official" AC&F car types.  Kaminski goes on to say that the full-on Type 27 wasn't really a thing until 1929.  But, Ted's SEFCRM book shows an April, 1926, builder's photo of RPX 2528 that looks, to my eye, as being more Type 27 than 21.  IOW, there were probably many tweener designs that may be difficult to pigeonhole as being one of the primary AC&F types. 

I would also caution against using dome diameter or volume as much of an identifier.  Texaco cars that were (I think) Type 21s and 10,000 gallons had 420-gal domes.  The comparable "standard" Type 21s  acquired by other companies seem to have had 322-gal domes in all the cases that I have examined (and this is what the P2000 model represents).  I  think this was one of those specs that was up to the buyer.  Texaco seems to have liked big domes generally; in the 1920s, they bought both PIW and PTCCo cars with 449-gal domes, which look phat on a 10 kgal car. 

Without seeing your photos, I don't know whether to suggest cannibalizing a P2000 Type 21, or an IM Type 27.  I think it would depend on which was closer dimensionally.  Have you flattened the perspective in any of your photos and obtained overall dimensions for both the frame and tank?

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 11:19 AM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Folks,

I was reminded yesterday of the Armstrong Cork Co tank car fleet. Armstrong had 2 sites, one in Lancaster PA, just down from CORK interlocking and the Lancaster passenger station on the PRR, and another on the A&S branch of the PRR at Marietta PA. Their fleet consisted of 11 cars, all 10,000 gallons and all built by AC&F. 

I have builders photos of #102, #107 and #110 and an in-service of the opposite (right) side of #110, which shows dome platforms on both sides. #102 is simply lettered ACKX, but the rest have a more complex Armstrong Linoleum scheme.   #102 was built 8/26, #107 was built 10/27 and #110 was built 4/28. 

Based on those build dates, I would have expected the latter 2 groups to be type 27 cars, but I measured the ratio of done to tank diameter and ​all 3 cars appear to AC&F Type 21 cars.  Is that correct?  However, unlike the P2K tank, these cars have 3 sheets, not 4 making up the tank. I seem to recall that some late type 21s had only 3 sheets?

Modeling might be a little bit of a challenge, requiring removal of 2 double-rows of rivets and replacement with a single double-row on the top of the tank.  Unless there is an HO model of a 3 sheet 10K AC&F type 21?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."






Re: PRR G24 questions

proto48er
 

Bruce -

Thank you very much!!  I have my copy of the PRR gondola book in hand!  Did not think to look in it!  The PSC "O" scale model is very well done when compared to the photo in the book of #351770 - will have to find or make a brass ratchet brake lever, add a brake release rod, add a retainer valve and pipe, and add a second grabiron to the left side of the car side. Then after a few Archer rivets added, it should be a "keeper"!

Thanks again!!

A.T. Kott

Re: Armstrong Cork/Linoleum tank cars

John Sykes III
 

Armstrong also has a large facility in Pensacola, FL.  It is located on the northeast side of Bayou Chico, near the location where the Spanish camped-out before attacking the British during the Revolutionary War.  They chased the British out of Pensacola and later turned over the land (actually gave away some and sold the rest) to the Americans.

The Armstrong plant was located there from the 1800's, since Pensacola was an major import port for cork and other exotic woods.  The Plant was on the extension of the Frisco line into Pensacola.  Also, there was a large chemical plant located adjacent to Armstrong which processed pine stumps into rosin & turpentine (Newport Industries).  My understanding is that Armstrong was a major user of the rosin for flooring.

Armstrong is still there today, serviced by the Alabama & Gulf Coast Railway, who bought the line from the BNSF.  Newport was split into two plants, Arizona Chemical and Reichhold Chemicals.

Sorry, this is a bit off topic, but Bruce tempted me with the Armstrong reference in Lancaster County.

-- John

Armstrong Cork/Linoleum tank cars

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I was reminded yesterday of the Armstrong Cork Co tank car fleet. Armstrong had 2 sites, one in Lancaster PA, just down from CORK interlocking and the Lancaster passenger station on the PRR, and another on the A&S branch of the PRR at Marietta PA. Their fleet consisted of 11 cars, all 10,000 gallons and all built by AC&F. 

I have builders photos of #102, #107 and #110 and an in-service of the opposite (right) side of #110, which shows dome platforms on both sides. #102 is simply lettered ACKX, but the rest have a more complex Armstrong Linoleum scheme.   #102 was built 8/26, #107 was built 10/27 and #110 was built 4/28. 

Based on those build dates, I would have expected the latter 2 groups to be type 27 cars, but I measured the ratio of done to tank diameter and ​all 3 cars appear to AC&F Type 21 cars.  Is that correct?  However, unlike the P2K tank, these cars have 3 sheets, not 4 making up the tank. I seem to recall that some late type 21s had only 3 sheets?

Modeling might be a little bit of a challenge, requiring removal of 2 double-rows of rivets and replacement with a single double-row on the top of the tank.  Unless there is an HO model of a 3 sheet 10K AC&F type 21?

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




Re: CNJ Box Car with Fox Trucks

Paul R Greenwald
 

Chuck-
I built one in high school (about 57 years ago) and didn’t know enough to detail the underbody. It is in my to do list for this summer.

Paul R Greenwald
Warrington, PA/Coconut Creek, FL
PRRTH&S #1802
NMRA # 129229

Re: Poultry Car

Ray Breyer
 

Likely an attendant in each car.

In 1922, chicken traffic boomed in central Illinois, and it seems as though there was a run on dedicated poultry cars. On the Clover Leaf, they ended up hauling chicken coops in regular stock cars, which didn't have provisions for riders. So the railroad built three "poultry caretaker's cars" (basically cupolaless cabooses) out of old boxcars. The NKP used the cars into the early 1930s.

There's be no need for chicken drovers cars unless the railroad needed someplace to hold six men at a time (the number of bunks in the cars).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Tuesday, February 13, 2018, 11:12:47 AM CST, Garth Groff or Sally Sanford sarahsan@... [STMFC] wrote:




Friends,

Here's a question I've never seen discussed. These cars carried an attendant to feed and water the birds. If several cars were grouped together to same destination, would they have an attendant for each car, or would one man be expected to care for several cars?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 2/13/18 11:43 AM, 'Eric Hansmann' eric@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

It looks similar to this Live Poultry Transit car that appeared among the Barriger Flickr collection recently.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/39274271965/

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 10:34 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Poultry Car

 




I found this photo on the Model Railroad Minutiae blog:

 

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sEJ70W7AjiM/VuxhZMrFSaI/AAAAAAAAJ5k/gMbi09Mo7WsNypDpKzrQA4SYM0qPCLINg/s1600/Scan10001.jpg

 

The caption reads, "This photo shows an outside metal framed boxcar without the wood panels.  The metal frame on this boxcar was being coated with rust protection.  I am guessing this car was being rebuilt or repaired and the inside wood framing has yet to be installed.  There are various parts laying on the ground around the car."

 

This looks to me to be a poultry car similar to this one:

 

https://lionelllc.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/poultrycarppkx5065meierfeld.png

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA





Re: PRR G24 questions

Bruce Smith
 

​A.T.,


Based on details in the PRRT&HS Gondola book (Just $25 at: http://www.prrths.com/estore/index_books.html) the arrangement drawing was changed to show the three added side stakes in 1937. That book shows 351770 with the modification in a photo that is captioned as the late 1950s (although I think that the reweigh might be 1951).  One problem is that the G24 was rare enough that there aren't very many photos.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: STMFC@... on behalf of atkott@... [STMFC]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:49 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] PRR G24 questions
 


Guys -

Some of the PRR G24 USRA gondolas that were converted from composite sides to all steel sides after 1937 had three extra vertical side stakes - one in the center of the car side, and one on each end of the car side between the body bolster centerline and the car end.  I have an "O" scale model of a G24 in this configuration that needs paint/lettering and cannot locate a photo of such a car with the extra side stakes.  I have two questions:

1.)  Were these G24 gons with three extra side stakes operated in the 1948 time period?


2.)  Could someone point me to a photo or provide me with a car number of a G24 of this type?


The "O" scale model (PSC 15501) has side stakes that do not extend above the top chord angle, not a scrap steel gon.


Thanks for your help!  This is a GREAT group!!


A.T. Kott



Re: Poultry Car (Barriger Photo)

Steven D Johnson
 

That card is one of the Topps railroad trading cards.  There’s a set up on eBay now with two of those poultry car cards in it.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-TCG-Locomotive-Train-Railroad-Trade-Trading-Cards-good-started-set/282845992525?hash=item41daef564d:g:b7AAAOSwNMVagdmc

 

Steve Johnson

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 1:51 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Poultry Car (Barriger Photo)

 

 

Coincidently, this particular car from the Barriger Library collection

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/39274271965/

 

was the subject for a postcard:

 

https://groups.io/g/RailwayBullShippersGroup/attachment/27/0

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

PRR G24 questions

proto48er
 

Guys -

Some of the PRR G24 USRA gondolas that were converted from composite sides to all steel sides after 1937 had three extra vertical side stakes - one in the center of the car side, and one on each end of the car side between the body bolster centerline and the car end.  I have an "O" scale model of a G24 in this configuration that needs paint/lettering and cannot locate a photo of such a car with the extra side stakes.  I have two questions:

1.)  Were these G24 gons with three extra side stakes operated in the 1948 time period?


2.)  Could someone point me to a photo or provide me with a car number of a G24 of this type?


The "O" scale model (PSC 15501) has side stakes that do not extend above the top chord angle, not a scrap steel gon.


Thanks for your help!  This is a GREAT group!!


A.T. Kott

Re: Poultry Car

Ray Breyer
 

>>In many poultry car photos you can see a name above the center door on the car. Notice the name “Long” on the photo from the Barriger Library. 
>>Long could have been the attendant who leased the car from Live Poultry Transit Co. Or Long could be the company who hired the attendant to work the car.
>>Doug  Harding


I think that this explanation of the poultry car names is model RR urban legend. I've got nearly 100 photos of poultry cars, with 30 readable names. The cars all seem to have come with names already painted on at the builders, so it seems as though the simplest explanation is that it was just tradition among the poultry car owners to name each car. Why? Who knows: maybe the car name above the door was easier to call out to farmers during loading ("Head on over to GEESER" instead of "Take your racks to LPTC 1023").

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


Re: tiny electric drills

Douglas Harding
 

Difficult to do with a cordless or battery powered tool. Works well with a traditional Dremel.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 4:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: tiny electric drills

 

 

Consider a foot pedal to control it.  You plug the pedal outlet into the power outlet and then plug your tool into the pedal outlet.  the pedal is the on - off.  As long as you hold you foot down the tool is on.

 

Mike Lytle

Re: tiny electric drills

lytlemp
 

Consider a foot pedal to control it.  You plug the pedal outlet into the power outlet and then plug your tool into the pedal outlet.  the pedal is the on - off.  As long as you hold you foot down the tool is on.


Mike Lytle

Re: Poultry Car (Barriger Photo)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

Coincidently, this particular car from the Barriger Library collection

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/39274271965/

 

was the subject for a postcard:

 

https://groups.io/g/RailwayBullShippersGroup/attachment/27/0

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: tiny electric drills

Steve Caple <stevecaple@...>
 

What would be nice would be on with a on-off switch that stayed on AND an adapter that let if fit a Dremel drill press accessory -  or a small cheap drill press stand made for the little electric screwdriver.

Re: Poultry Car

frograbbit602
 

I as others believe this is a poultry car. On the second poultry car photo that Bob said the car might be like. The research I have done states the bottom tank was used for feed and water in the tank under the running board. Both tanks had access hatches from attendant quarters.

As a side note. I believe there is only one poultry car left in the country which is at the St. Louis Transportation Museum. When I was there last year I got a person to take me to see the car buried among others in a car barn. Terrible location for photos. I was told is was out for display in earlier years to attempt to raise money for restoration. I am wondering if someone in this group took photos of the car while it was outside on display. And, could share a photo or two.

Lester Breuer

Re: Poultry Car

frograbbit602
 

Eric the tank under neat is for feed for the poultry. Under the running board is a tank for water. Both tanks had access by attendant from his middle quarters.

Lester Breuer

Re: Poultry Car

Douglas Harding
 

The image of the bare framework is definitely a poultry car. You can see the frame work for holding the cages or coops. And there would not be wood sides, the sides were typically a wire mesh. Each car was equipped with water and feed for the birds. There is typically a roof hatch, I assume for the feed box, above the center section of the car. And the underbelly tank is most likely a water tank. Do you suppose there was a pump or just dip a bucket through a trap door in the floor? The center section also contained a small bunk room with stove for the attendant. A center aisle ran the length of car. Cages were loaded via this aisle and the attendant used it to care for the care birds. The attendants job included caring for the birds, ie feed and water, collecting eggs, cleaning the cages, and disposing of dead birds.

 

Many poultry cars were leased, to individuals or companies, who used the car to collect/purchase poultry as they made their rounds, probably following a pre-determined or assigned route. The birds were then delivered to a central processing facility at the end of the route. In many poultry car photos you can see a name above the center door on the car. Notice the name “Long” on the photo from the Barriger Library. Long could have been the attendant who leased the car from Live Poultry Transit Co. Or Long could be the company who hired the attendant to work the car.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

Re: Poultry Car

Richard Townsend
 

It's a poultry car. Many were converted to other uses during WWII and this may be a photo of that process underway.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Tue, Feb 13, 2018 8:36 am
Subject: [STMFC] Poultry Car

 
I found this photo on the Model Railroad Minutiae blog:
 
 
The caption reads, "This photo shows an outside metal framed boxcar without the wood panels.  The metal frame on this boxcar was being coated with rust protection.  I am guessing this car was being rebuilt or repaired and the inside wood framing has yet to be installed.  There are various parts laying on the ground around the car."
 
This looks to me to be a poultry car similar to this one:
 
 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Poultry Car

Roger Huber
 

I would think if there were more than one car sent out they might be going to different locations and would need an attendant in each. With multiple cars going to one location it could go either way. Chickens don't need constant attention so taking care of their feed/water/eggs and those that died in transit could be handled by one poor fellow in 2 cars or so. I don't know as I'd want that job.

I'm willing to bet the tank is for water for the chickens and poop got shoveled out the door or some other place. There was no EPA or poop police back then.

Certainly interesting cars and the discussion has brought out a lot of nice photos and helpful info. Really good team track use.

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works



Re: CB&Q XM-32 boxcar

Bill Welch
 

I do not think there is a styrene kit specifically for AC&F. Yarmouth is some kits with propritory AC&F ends and roofs. Branchline—now Atlas—had/has kits that can used to model post-WWII cars built by AC&F.

Bill Welch