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Re: Lettering requirements

Eric Hansmann
 

Charlie,

 

The link Earl referenced is my file that was created to illustrate the lettering changes in the 1920s. I scanned pages from ORERs and combined the images into the two page PDF.

http://hansmanns.org/ARA_lettering_guidelines_1920_+_1927.pdf

 

Those are the ARA recommended lettering guidelines. There were slight changes to the 1927 guidelines later but I do not have those details. As you compare builder images of cars built in the late 1930s and into the 1940s, the lettering mostly follows the 1927 guidelines.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 8:41 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Lettering requirements

 




Speaking of lettering, does anyone have ARA standard lettering drawings?   

Some CB&Q L&P drawings reference them instead of CB&Q alpha and numeric drawings.

Thanks

Charlie Vlk
Re: Lettering requirements

Charlie Vlk
 

Speaking of lettering, does anyone have ARA standard lettering drawings?   
Some CB&Q L&P drawings reference them instead of CB&Q alpha and numeric drawings.
Thanks
Charlie Vlk
Re: Lettering requirements

Earl Tuson
 

Allow me to add:

Eric Hansmann posted excerpts from the 1920 and 1926 revisions here:


The 1909 revision can be emphasized as well, as that introduced the Lettering-Number-Capacity-Light Weight grouping, typically applied at the left.

Earl Tuson
Re: Lettering requirements

Earl Tuson
 

Stephen Sandifer asked:

When did the lettering requirements on the sides of cars change? In the
1880s the primary info seemed to be the ID and car #. Later other dimensions
and weight were added and at different locations or in different
configurations. I assume this was a federal requirement. Enlighten me
please.
The Master Car Builder's Association, a voluntary trade group, issued Recommended Practices and Standards for various
aspects of lettering, marking, and stenciling beginning as early as 1893. Early on, new practices were added and
revisions made in a near continuous fashion: 1896, 1901, 1902, 1906, 1908, 1909, 1911, 1913... but more significant
changes were introduced in 1920 and 1926.

I have been working up a detailed account of these changes, which I anticipate adding as an appendix to complement a
similarly detailed account of B&M lettering practices during the 1900-1930 period.

Earl Tuson
Re: Lettering requirements

Tom Vanwormer
 

Steve,
Back in the 1880s & 90s it was dictated by the Master Car Builders Association.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

'Steve Sandifer' steve.sandifer@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

When did the lettering requirements on the sides of cars change? In the 1880s the primary info seemed to be the ID and car #. Later other dimensions and weight were added and at different locations or in different configurations. I assume this was a federal requirement. Enlighten me please.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 
March 31st ops on the Alma branch

Jared Harper
 

I  need one more person to fill out my Alma branch crew for Saturday, March 31st.

Jared Harper
420 Woodward Way
Athens, GA 30606
706-543-8821gg
Lettering requirements

Steve SANDIFER
 

When did the lettering requirements on the sides of cars change? In the 1880s the primary info seemed to be the ID and car #. Later other dimensions and weight were added and at different locations or in different configurations. I assume this was a federal requirement. Enlighten me please.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 
Re: a stronger solution

Tim O'Connor
 

John

Your comments about surfactants reminds me of Photo Flo [?] (or whatever it's
called)... Supposedly breaks up surface tension, but without any detergents.
I wonder what it's made of.

Tim O'Connor


Actually I added it to a bottle of Micro Sol.  I think I overestimated the volume left in the bottle before adding the butyl cellosolve and ended up with about a 20% solution.

It was used in several home and industrial cleaners.  I think Formula 409 was one and I know that the Whiteboard cleaner I bought at Staples is nearly as strong as the Paint Stripper (is is Rinse-Away or Wash-Away?).  I haven't bought a bottle of that stuff in 10 years now.  Just made up a fresh batch last night.

butyl cellosolve in water -- decal set

butyl cellosolve in 91% isopropyl alohol -- paint stripper or whiteboard cleaner

Just thinking, a drop of Dawn or some other surfactant might help break the surface tension and get the decals into cracks and crevices, but I think butyl cellosolve is a mild surfactant.  Hmmm???

-- John
Re: a stronger solution

John Sykes III
 

Actually I added it to a bottle of Micro Sol.  I think I overestimated the volume left in the bottle before adding the butyl cellosolve and ended up with about a 20% solution.

It was used in several home and industrial cleaners.  I think Formula 409 was one and I know that the Whiteboard cleaner I bought at Staples is nearly as strong as the Paint Stripper (is is Rinse-Away or Wash-Away?).  I haven't bought a bottle of that stuff in 10 years now.  Just made up a fresh batch last night.

butyl cellosolve in water -- decal set

butyl cellosolve in 91% isopropyl alohol -- paint stripper or whiteboard cleaner

Just thinking, a drop of Dawn or some other surfactant might help break the surface tension and get the decals into cracks and crevices, but I think butyl cellosolve is a mild surfactant.  Hmmm???

-- John
Re: a stronger solution

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Way back in 1971, when I was in a Navy school here in the Bay Area, I bought a bottle of window cleaner that contained butyl celllusolve... best damn window cleaner I ever used. It easily dissolved the haze on the windshield of my new car. 

How much of the pure stuff did you add to the bottle of Champ's Decal solution? I believe that maybe a 5% solution in DI water may well do the trick. 
 
Bill Daniels, San Francisco, CA


On Thursday, February 22, 2018 4:43 PM, "johnsykesiii@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Hey, guiz!

My ears were burning.  MicroSet is the blue bottle, and is, in fact acetic acid.  Vinegar runs at 2-3% acetic acid.  I think MicroSet is a bit stronger (but not much).  You can buy ~30% acetic acid at a top notch photo shop.  Just ask for Kodak Short Stop concentrate (NOT indicator short stop - unless that's all they have) and dillute it down.  5% should work well without burning your skin.

The original Solvaset (Hobsco) was a butyl cellosolve solution*, but Walthers switched to a "safer" solvent . . . just before EPA listed it as a hazardous chemical.  I don't know the percentage, but I do know that the old Solvaset was stronger than MicroSol (red bottle).  So I think they may be in the 5 - 8% range.

I added some pure butyl cellosolve to a bottle of MicroSol and it dissolved a MicroScale decal completely!  Works good on Champs, however.

* chemical name for butyl cellosolve is 2-butoxyethanol.  Is available out of the "back room" of Sherwin Williams stores that cater to professional painters (can be used to slow down drying of lacquers).  Alas, gallons only.

-- John

P.S. Butyl cellosolve in 91% isopropyl alcohol is a good substitute for Chameleon or Rinse-Away paint stripper.  Be carefull, too much will craze some plastics, notably ABS.  I use about 10% with styrene or brass, but you might want to start lower -- say 5% and work your way up.
Re: a stronger solution

John Sykes III
 

Hey, guiz!

My ears were burning.  MicroSet is the blue bottle, and is, in fact acetic acid.  Vinegar runs at 2-3% acetic acid.  I think MicroSet is a bit stronger (but not much).  You can buy ~30% acetic acid at a top notch photo shop.  Just ask for Kodak Short Stop concentrate (NOT indicator short stop - unless that's all they have) and dillute it down.  5% should work well without burning your skin.

The original Solvaset (Hobsco) was a butyl cellosolve solution*, but Walthers switched to a "safer" solvent . . . just before EPA listed it as a hazardous chemical.  I don't know the percentage, but I do know that the old Solvaset was stronger than MicroSol (red bottle).  So I think they may be in the 5 - 8% range.

I added some pure butyl cellosolve to a bottle of MicroSol and it dissolved a MicroScale decal completely!  Works good on Champs, however.

* chemical name for butyl cellosolve is 2-butoxyethanol.  Is available out of the "back room" of Sherwin Williams stores that cater to professional painters (can be used to slow down drying of lacquers).  Alas, gallons only.

-- John

P.S. Butyl cellosolve in 91% isopropyl alcohol is a good substitute for Chameleon or Rinse-Away paint stripper.  Be carefull, too much will craze some plastics, notably ABS.  I use about 10% with styrene or brass, but you might want to start lower -- say 5% and work your way up.
Re: a stronger solution

frograbbit602
 

Tim,

May be adding Butyl Cellosolve to the current Micro-Sol to increase strength?  Just a thought if you are willing to experiment.

Lester Breuer
Re: a stronger solution

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 2/22/2018 1:53 PM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] wrote:
Both SolvaSet and Microscale use this same
 ingredient, but they're simply not as powerful.

Could buy a small bottle and add it to either SolvaSet or Microscale and see what happens.  I would tend to do that but really don't need a 20 dollar bottle:-)!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
Re: NYSW Boxcar 9402 With Plug Door

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 2/22/2018 4:07 PM, Tom VanWormer robsmom@... [STMFC] wrote:
�

Bob,
A large number of the wooden box cars of both the ATSF and Colorado Midland in the mid 1880s were equipped with� Wagner Door which were "plug doors" when viewed from the current type of self sealing doors.

Also the SP. But their doors usually opened to the left.

Spen Kellogg
Re: a stronger solution

Bill Welch
 

Microscale Sol (Blue Label) smells like Vinegar, Tim wants something stronger than Microscale Set (Red Label).

Bill Welch
Re: a stronger solution

naptownprr
 

Guys,


I always thought it was acetic acid since it smells like vinegar.


Jim Hunter

From: STMFC@... on behalf of Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] uys,


Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 4:17 PM
To: stmfc@...; bbfcl@groups.io
Subject: [STMFC] a stronger solution
 
 


Thinking of trying to recreate some Champ decal solution, John Sykes
reported this as the main solvent ingredient

https://www.amazon.com/Butyl-Cellosolve-2-butoxyethanol-Purity-500ml/dp/B00CF2JMDM

Anyone have a clue what a good dilution would be for decals? And if there
are any other known ingredients that makes Champ work, where others fail?

Tim O'Connor
Re: NYSW Boxcar 9402 With Plug Door

Tom Vanwormer
 

Bob,
A large number of the wooden box cars of both the ATSF and Colorado Midland in the mid 1880s were equipped with  Wagner Door which were "plug doors" when viewed from the current type of self sealing doors.

Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

I came across this photo on Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffs4653/4058168784/in/photolist-7bBbcj-anCQp

 

Caption: "Old wooden boxcar stored at the small yard in Butler NJ. This photo is from August 1988."

 

I noticed this wood sheathed boxcar has a plug door. Were plug doors commonly applied to older wood sheathed boxcars? I assume plug doors were applied during a rebuilding of this car.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: B&M ORER listings

ROGER HINMAN
 

I’m down in Harrisburg this week but I have some of the 20s orders at home

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On Thursday, February 22, 2018, 'Earl Tuson' etuson@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hello,

I am conducting a study of the B&M’s application of steel ends and reinforcements on 36' wood and steel underframe box
cars and 34' wood underframe gondola cars during the 1920’s.  B&M AFE records are inadequate to fully document the end
replacements from the period. For example, B&M AFE 605 from 1920 authorized Mogul ends for 2000 boxcars. There are
no such application shown in 1921 (although Tim Gilbert claimed that such applications began in 1916,) but over 4707 cars
with those reinforcements are shown to exist in 1926.

I have ORER records from 12/21, when none of the relevant series are shown to have yet received steel ends, 10/26, and
12/30 (an adequate stopping point for the study for the time being, there being only retirements from that point on and no
increases from further steel end installations.)  For those of you with access to additional ORER’s within those dates, would
it be possible to obtain scans of the B&M ORER listing (starting on page 326 throughout the period of interest.) Thank you
for any assistance that you can provide,

Earl Tuson
Re: a stronger solution

Tim O'Connor
 


Todd, I agree but I was hoping someone might know if there is something
"extra" in the Champ fluid... Both SolvaSet and Microscale use this same
ingredient, but they're simply not as powerful.

Tim



Hi Tim,

The scientist in me says, "Experiment!"  If you took some of this product and measured out a specific amount (maybe 10cc), then started diluting it with distilled water in equally careful measurements, one step at a time, and tested it at each dilution level on some old decal stock on a scrap car shell, perhaps you could arrive at a reasonable proportion.

Todd Sullivan

Re: a stronger solution

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Tim,

The scientist in me says, "Experiment!"  If you took some of this product and measured out a specific amount (maybe 10cc), then started diluting it with distilled water in equally careful measurements, one step at a time, and tested it at each dilution level on some old decal stock on a scrap car shell, perhaps you could arrive at a reasonable proportion.

Todd Sullivan
28141 - 28160 of 183678