Date   

Re: Color & color perception

Charles Peck
 

I know that my road  (L&N) bought freight car reds from low bidders. Some a little redder,
some a little browner, some faded faster, some became almost pink.  So even before
weathering, I make sure the colors vary. I realize that this is entirely contrary to the
practice of many modelers who demand absolute consistency in their paint.  But it fits
the practice of my chosen prototype AS I REMEMBER IT from 60 years ago. 
As I see it, my personal recollections and fitting the image I remember are more 
important than having someone show me a paint chip and say all my hopper cars
should be THIS color.  
I can agree that hopper number xxxxx was painted this color in 1951.  But looking at 
the overall fleet painted in various years with differing paint, getting one car exactly
right seems a minor issue.  Not one that is going to disturb my happiness.
The only color issue that gripes me is that Dulux Gold is bright mustard, not a 
metallic gold.
Chuck Peck


On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Tim,

I really wish you had more samples to share.

I found it interesting that you have B&O samples from two different manufacturers, and they are different. Still, after a couple of years of road grime, weather and sunlight, I doubt if the colors would have looked anything like the samples. Although we agonize over the correct shades, but often forget that in addition to lighting changing colors, so does weathering.

Get it close and weather the stuffing out of it.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 4/17/18 2:26 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Gordon Andrews wrote

 > So.... anyone want to start a data base of "correct colors"? BTW, the "green identified
 > as "Sylvan" by Pantone is NOT what Southern used on their steam passenger  locomotives.
 > I think it is closer to Pantone 2427 XGC... but what do I know... I've had surgery. Maybe
 > the Smithsonian knows the Pantone color on #1401.

Many years ago Ed Hawkins scanned some paint chips as shown here. (This is my
compressed JPEG rather than the original TIFF file.) With simple statistical
sampling you could build a database of RGB values for all such paint chips. In
my opinion well preserved paint chips are the most reliable way to assess original
paint colors.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/17098035956/

But as we ALL should know by now, PAINT color and PERCEIVED color are two different
animals. Dennis Storzek's post on the difference caused by 3000k (late afternoon red)
vs 5000k (high noon full spectrum) light makes a HUGE difference.

In addition, prototype colors are skewed by application directions. For example, some
SP passenger cars had Primer, then Aluminum, then Daylight Red, and finally an overcoat
of varnish. In direct sunlight some photons would penetrate the layers and so what your
eye or camera "saw" had many different influences, only one of which was Daylight Red.

Tim O'Connor



MKT War Emergency boxcar built on General American Reefer Underframe

Bill Welch
 

Having secured two InterMountain unbuilt Undec War Emergency kits I am intending to build one as a Wabash version w/a straight sill and many gusset plates and the MKT's version that was built on retired General American refrigerator car underframes. I have a photo of one of these in MOW service that will help me do the underframe but wondering if there may drawings of this underframe somewhere. Unfortunately I do not have a built date for the underframe but it has a fishbelly center sill with a pair of triangular cross bearers on each side. I cannot see the cross tie arrangement in the photo I have. Hoping the MKT people on this list may have resources I am not aware of for these cars. Please contact me off list at fgexbill(AT)tampabay.rr.com if you can help me.

Thank you,
Bill Welch


Re: Test with an attached photo

Bill Keene
 

Dick,

Thanks for the response and the information. I just might still have a bottle of Floquil “Rail Brown” in the box of paint bottles next tot he paint booth. Still usable or not… we will find out. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:03 PM, Richard Scott <rlscott5709@...> wrote:

Bill,

It's code 125 steel rail with a thin coat of Floquil "Rail Brown" from the 1980s.

Dick Scott



Still out here

Tom Palmer
 

Good day Gents,

                Still out here paying attention to the freight cars, especially the MKT ones.

 

Best regards,

                Tom Palmer


Re: NHS Steamtown Images - IC 53347 reefer circa-1925

Dennis Storzek
 

i agree with Tony, would make a lot of sense on reefers, IF the train crew carried the cans. Stuffing the box full of hotbox sticks and setting a bucket to dribble water on it might make the difference between successfully making the next terminal, or losing time setting the cripple out, which would have been seen as important in perishable service.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Color & color perception

Randy Hees
 

Hi Tim...

That was a very good analysis of the issue, and the photo showing the various mineral reds was wonderful.   

A friend and I sample paint where ever we find it.  If possible I retain a physical sample.  We also do pantone matches, then create color cards as a way of presenting the information.  An example can be found at http://www.pacificng.com/pdf/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.pacificng.com/roads/nv/cc/pdf/CC-Freight-Colors-1881-1900.pdf

None of the systems are perfect, but the photo of the variations on mineral reds suggests a solution for modelers... the cars should demonstrate the range of different colors found.  That with weathering is what gives the cars a realistic appearance.

Randy Hees


Re: NHS Steamtown Images - IC 53347 reefer circa-1925

Tony Thompson
 

Wayne Campbell wrote:

Nice detailed pictures - and both ends included is a bonus.

There are four small hooks hanging from the frame member above each truck.   I wonder what they are for?

     Not sure about application to a reefer, but on the SP, such hooks on cabooses and locomotive tenders were for "Keeley cans," hot-box relief coolant containers.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: NHS Steamtown Images - IC 53347 reefer circa-1925

Tim O'Connor
 


I don't know in THIS case, but the Pacific Electric had some cars with brake
rods located outside the trucks like this, due to extremely sharp curves on some
tracks that interfered with the hand brake control rod that went to the brake
cylinder.

Tim O'Connor



Nice detailed pictures - and both ends included is a bonus.

There are four small hooks hanging from the frame member above each truck.   I wonder what they are for?



Wayne Campbell
Abbotsford, Canada


Re: Color & color perception

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

While I have seen and held many prototype paint chips in my hands, I
have never owned one. They are a valuable commodity, and owners do not
share them freely - Ed Hawkins obviously being a major exception. I don't
know what became of George Bishop's (Accupaint) extensive collection of
prototype drift cards and paint samples - very likely stolen as was much
of his personal property, sad to say. Some historical societies and books
have published printed paint sheets or pages - the PFE books, a book on
Pullman passenger cars, the NPRHA, etc.

Tim O'Connor



Tim,

I really wish you had more samples to share.

I found it interesting that you have B&O samples from two different manufacturers, and they are different. Still, after a couple of years of road grime, weather and sunlight, I doubt if the colors would have looked anything like the samples. Although we agonize over the correct shades, but often forget that in addition to lighting changing colors, so does weathering.

Get it close and weather the stuffing out of it.

Garth Groff


Re: NHS Steamtown Images - IC 53347 reefer circa-1925

WACampbell
 

Nice detailed pictures - and both ends included is a bonus.

There are four small hooks hanging from the frame member above each truck.   I wonder what they are for?



Wayne Campbell
Abbotsford, Canada


Re: Color & color perception

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tim,

I really wish you had more samples to share.

I found it interesting that you have B&O samples from two different manufacturers, and they are different. Still, after a couple of years of road grime, weather and sunlight, I doubt if the colors would have looked anything like the samples. Although we agonize over the correct shades, but often forget that in addition to lighting changing colors, so does weathering.

Get it close and weather the stuffing out of it.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 4/17/18 2:26 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Gordon Andrews wrote

 > So.... anyone want to start a data base of "correct colors"? BTW, the "green identified
 > as "Sylvan" by Pantone is NOT what Southern used on their steam passenger  locomotives.
 > I think it is closer to Pantone 2427 XGC... but what do I know... I've had surgery. Maybe
 > the Smithsonian knows the Pantone color on #1401.

Many years ago Ed Hawkins scanned some paint chips as shown here. (This is my
compressed JPEG rather than the original TIFF file.) With simple statistical
sampling you could build a database of RGB values for all such paint chips. In
my opinion well preserved paint chips are the most reliable way to assess original
paint colors.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/17098035956/

But as we ALL should know by now, PAINT color and PERCEIVED color are two different
animals. Dennis Storzek's post on the difference caused by 3000k (late afternoon red)
vs 5000k (high noon full spectrum) light makes a HUGE difference.

In addition, prototype colors are skewed by application directions. For example, some
SP passenger cars had Primer, then Aluminum, then Daylight Red, and finally an overcoat
of varnish. In direct sunlight some photons would penetrate the layers and so what your
eye or camera "saw" had many different influences, only one of which was Daylight Red.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Color & color perception

Tim O'Connor
 

Gordon Andrews wrote

 > So.... anyone want to start a data base of "correct colors"? BTW, the "green identified
 > as "Sylvan" by Pantone is NOT what Southern used on their steam passenger  locomotives.
 > I think it is closer to Pantone 2427 XGC... but what do I know... I've had surgery. Maybe
 > the Smithsonian knows the Pantone color on #1401.

Many years ago Ed Hawkins scanned some paint chips as shown here. (This is my
compressed JPEG rather than the original TIFF file.) With simple statistical
sampling you could build a database of RGB values for all such paint chips. In
my opinion well preserved paint chips are the most reliable way to assess original
paint colors.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timboconnor/17098035956/

But as we ALL should know by now, PAINT color and PERCEIVED color are two different
animals. Dennis Storzek's post on the difference caused by 3000k (late afternoon red)
vs 5000k (high noon full spectrum) light makes a HUGE difference.

In addition, prototype colors are skewed by application directions. For example, some
SP passenger cars had Primer, then Aluminum, then Daylight Red, and finally an overcoat
of varnish. In direct sunlight some photons would penetrate the layers and so what your
eye or camera "saw" had many different influences, only one of which was Daylight Red.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Cataracts and color perception

Dennis Storzek
 

Unfortunately, no one has answered Tom's specific question, which I'll paraphrase as, "after surgery, did you find, when looking at models you painted before surgery, that you wanted to say yuck, who picked that color?" I suspect, since no such stories have been reported, that it's not really an issue. Tom, if your colors were that far off, your friends would have told you - I know mine would have :-)

Even without cataracts, I've done that to myself. I painted three sample Soo Line passenger cars with my version of Soo maroon, mixed "to taste" under my 5000K layout lights. Looked fine to me. Then, since I didn't have scenery, I took them over to a friend's layout to photograph. Ohmygod, the things looked as red as apples, they looked like fire engines :-( Turns out his layout lighting was halogen bulbs, which are full spectrum, but only about 3000K. Just reminded me that while color matching under layout lighting is good, it also pays to view the match under several other lighting conditions to be sure you haven't gone off the deep end.

Dennis Storzek


Re: NHS Steamtown Images - IC 53347 reefer circa-1925

Richard Brennan
 

All

Three VERY clean images of IC steel-underframe reefer 53347...
from the NHS Steamtown collection... posted on the Erie-Lackawanna list
by HNS Archivist Pat McNight.

http://lists.railfan.net/lists/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-04-17-18/X4320.jpg
http://lists.railfan.net/lists/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-04-17-18/X4321.jpg
http://lists.railfan.net/lists/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-04-17-18/X4322.jpg

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

At 02:58 AM 4/17/2018, McKnight, Richard wrote in (ErieLack):

NOTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
To view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
following URL into your web browser:


http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-04-17-18

X4320--Illinois Central Despatch refrigerator car no. 53347--End [1925-1926]
X4321--Illinois Central Despatch refrigerator car no. 53347--Side [1925-1926]
X4322--Illinois Central Despatch refrigerator car no. 53347--End [1925-1926]

--
Patrick McKnight
Historian/Archivist
Steamtown NHS
150 S. Washington Avenue
Scranton, PA


Re: Test

csxt5555
 

Test.  No bots here

Kevin Sprayberry 


On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Dr. Benny Barnhart <drbbarnhart@...> wrote:

No bots here!

 

Benny

 

Benny L. Barnhart, M.D.

Diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology

 


Test

Dr. Benny Barnhart
 

No bots here!

 

Benny

 

Benny L. Barnhart, M.D.

Diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology

 


ADMIN: Cataracts

Aley, Jeff A
 

Folks,

 

               Cataracts are not freight cars.  And RealSTMFC is about Steam-era Freight Cars.

 

Thanks,

 

-Jeff Aley

Deputy Moderator, RealSTMFC

 


Color & color perception

milepost 131
 

Since color is a perennial issue for some of us:

It is my understanding that when I "match" a color with "my" eyes... my perceived color on the original will match the perceived color I apply to my model. In other words the same eyes are seeing the same color. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong with  cite. So if I perceive it with a "yellow tint" I will attempt to replicate that same tint thus "you" should see a color that is close to what IS. Of course, my skill to mix exactly the same color could be an issue. 

That being said... most members know that Kodachrome and Ektachrome (and other color photos) can "shift" over time as the dyes degrade. I have "archived" some of my photos to digital. This "freezes"  the color. 

It is also possible to edit a photo digitally so that you can reverse colors that have degraded but be aware this can mean "correcting" to your memory. 

Since I model Southern Railway (US) in the steam era one of my issues is "Virginia Green" vs "Sylvan Green."  So that muddles the water more.

A few years back I tried to convince some modelers that perhaps a solution might be Pantone Color numbers. Pantone numbers remain constant so a Pantone identification of say 140 (if selected as say the color of a 1942 Southern Railway Boxcar) would give users a standard. But modelers seemed reticent.  So it goes.

And even if you pick the right color whether it looks like the right color under your "lighting conditions"and photographs right is yet another issue.

As for cataracts- yes they give you the yellow tint. Once removed that is cured BUT if you get a replacement lens they can shift color. For issues related to "complications"I have a lens that corrects for astigmatism in one eye. The other one did too but the complications ended up with a non-astigmatism lens.... (SIGH). Guess what? I reported t my surgeon that the color "white" was bit different depending on which eye was open. Yep- there is a difference in the corrective lens. 

So.... anyone want to start a data base of "correct colors"? BTW, the "green identified as "Sylvan" by Pantone is NOT what Southern used on their steam passenger  locomotives. I think it is closer to Pantone 2427 XGC... but what do I know... I've had surgery. Maybe the Smithsonian knows the Pantone color on #1401.

 



 


Re: Cataracts and color perception

ottokroutil
 

Tom, I had cataract surgeries on both eyes less than two years ago, and was amazed how just unaware I had been of the degree of clouding that slowly and imperceptibly snuck up on me over the years. After the surgery, I could SEE clearly again, with clearer, brighter colors, and whiter whites. I know, I sound like a detergent commercial, but it's true. Who knew newspapers were black and white rather than buff...😉

One other benefit of the surgery (and this is VERY personal, and may not work for everyone; please discuss with your doctor) is the ability to get corrective lenses set individually for each eye. It took me a while to explain my needs clearly as people tend to think in terms of correcting for closeup or for distance; I wanted the close to mid-range to be sharp, and if I needed glasses to drive, well so be it (here in California one needs sunglasses anyway). The result is that I no longer have to constantly put on and take off glasses when I'm in the trainroom; as matter of fact, I don't wear glasses at all except for night driving and reading fine print. (And of course, I use Optivisors for all fine work).

Good luck with the surgery and feel free to contact me off list if you like.
Regards, Otto Kroutil


Re: Cataracts and color perception

Jerome (Jerry) Albin
 

Tom,
 I had both eyes done a number of years ago. I was immediately aware of how bright and bluer everything was. It was like a yellow filter had been taken away. I needed sun glasses outdoors. As for "too red", no not really, but then my light sources are 3500 and 5000 kelvin, more on the daylight side. BTW, you will need magnification for close modeling after the cataract surgery since you will lose your close vision. Best Regards...Jerry Albin

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