Date   
Re: San Francisco Fleet Handouts

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

John,

Nice hand-outs. Any chance your lecture text is available? I have a passing interest in Santa Fe's marine operations. When I took basic training in 1975 at USCG TRACEN ALAMEDA (Government Island), and later as base staff, I could see the Alameda slip across the channel and often one of the floats was tied up there. I never saw a tug though. On liberty time I sometimes photographed the Alameda Belt Line, but I never found the access to the slip.

By the way, Government Island still had remnants of street trackage when I was there. During WWII it was a major Coast Guard supply center, and its warehouses were served by an SP spur that crossed the Oakland Estuary on a low bridge from Oakland. I think the bridge was rail/road. By the time I got there that bridge had been replaced by an all-road structure with a hump high enough to allow pleasure boats to go under.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  (former Coast Guard Photojournalist First Class)

On 7/26/18 10:02 PM, John Barry wrote:
The link to the handouts for my presentation are on my blog at Santa Fe's San Francisco Fleet Handouts


 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

Re: Double sheath siding overlap

Robert kirkham
 

Hmm – one tiny little add to your great comments Dennis.  I’ve also seen them take a little off at the piece next to the door posts as part of maximizing the partial board widths. 

 

Rob

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 8:10 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Double sheath siding overlap

 

There is no structural reason to do it either way, but my gut feeling is that having the sheathing on the carsides overlapping the sheathing on the end was more common, likely because there was more fiddly cutting on the ends, so they were likely done first. That also happens to be what the Pullman drawing for the 36" NYC car Accurail just did shows.... But it may not look like a separate board. The reason we can see the board edges is because of the bevel that formed a  V grove when the siding was laid up. But there was no reason for the carpenters to work that bevel on the cut edges at the corner so the tightly joined boards may appear as one slightly wider board. There was also a subset of cars built with oversize corner and end posts that came through the sheathing, either flush with the outer surface (common for corner posts) or projecting out a couple inches (common for end posts). This was a strategy to get bigger (and stringer) posts to fin within the constrained thickness of the walls.

I suggest you browse through the images in the Steamtown photo Collection that are occasionally posted here, there are a lot of different wood car images.
Here's an example: Wood Boxcars

On the nearest car, SP 85753, it appears they did bevel the cut edges to form a V grove, while on the next car, Soo 19764 they didn't, and the corner board just appears to be a slightly wider board, except near the bottom, where weather has taken its toll and the joint is opening up. The Soo car also illustrates the end post coming through the sheathing, visible just to the right of the brake staff. The third car in line also appears to have a wider corner board; it can either be a tight joint between two corner boards or a flush post; no way to really tell.

A couple other general statements, dating back to my days as a carpenter: The end board will naturally lose it's edge bevel when the groove is cut off; it is considered very poor practice to just leave an empty groove. So, if they want a V groove, it's extra work to bevel the cut edges. Likewise, a run of siding rarely works out to be an exact multiple of the board width, so the end boards are where the difference is made up. It is considered good practice to split the amount of difference between both end boards. If the two end boards would be smaller than half the standard board width, one less board is used so the end boards are closer to full width. Conversely, if the area to be covered is only slightly wider than a multiple of the board width, which would leave a skinny little strip, one more board is used so each end board is just slightly wider than one half a board. I'm sure these general rules were followed by the car builders. When the cars needed repair, the carmen on the RIP track may not be quite so picky,

Dennis Storzek

San Francisco Fleet Handouts

John Barry
 

The link to the handouts for my presentation are on my blog at Santa Fe's San Francisco Fleet Handouts


 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

X23 and R7 floor stringers

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,


An interesting question has arisen over on the PRRPro list in the X23 and related car project.  It appears that the X23, R7 and likely the other related cars were built without longitudinal stringers. These appear to have been added to the X23 at some point, being placed between the cross bearers, instead of above them. Was this modification ever made to the R7 refrigerator car, either while in PRR service or after transfer to FGE? Leaving the full span between the centersill and side sill unsupported seems like something that would have needed correction in all members of the class.


Regards,

Bruce

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

Re: Trucks

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Ken,

The SP operation used gondolas. We discussed this a year or so ago here, and were provided with several photos. They should be in our group's photo files somewhere.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 7/26/18 2:24 PM, Ken Adams wrote:
Well there were at one time the LA garbage trains of slops to feed local pig farms....And here I grew up in Oregon and never heard that term as applied to lumber waste. Oh well.

Re: Illinois Central Howe Truss SS boxcar

paul.doggett2472 <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

Nice work Bill you are a real craftsman.

Paul Doggett England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

On Thursday, July 26, 2018, 8:12 pm, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I am getting ready to prime my build of Sunshine's kit #57.2 IC series 176000-999 and took photos of my enhancements before the primmer obliterates them. I think the white styrene makes them pretty obvious. One thing I try to pay attention to on cars with Hutchins roofs is how the metal on the ribs bends over the edge of the roof and that they usually have a "V" shaped crimp at the edge. I used styrene strip to build up the very end of each rib and another piece under the eave. After the glue sets up I cut the excess styrene and used a small file to smooth the edges to make it look like bent metal. My goal is to try to reduce cross sections and any other kind of thickness to get a finer model.

Bill Welch

Illinois Central Howe Truss SS boxcar

Bill Welch
 

I am getting ready to prime my build of Sunshine's kit #57.2 IC series 176000-999 and took photos of my enhancements before the primmer obliterates them. I think the white styrene makes them pretty obvious. One thing I try to pay attention to on cars with Hutchins roofs is how the metal on the ribs bends over the edge of the roof and that they usually have a "V" shaped crimp at the edge. I used styrene strip to build up the very end of each rib and another piece under the eave. After the glue sets up I cut the excess styrene and used a small file to smooth the edges to make it look like bent metal. My goal is to try to reduce cross sections and any other kind of thickness to get a finer model.

Bill Welch

Re: Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Bill. The resin castings for my CB&Q cars are quite a bit larger (20 in. dia.). I don’t have any scale drawings of classes XM-21/22/23, so I don’t know if the brake wheels from Westerfield are the correct prototype diameter. If anyone has access to scale drawings, please measure the brake wheel and let me know the diameter. Nobody makes a six spoke 20 in. brake wheel to my knowledge.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 1:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

 

They are 15-inches.

Bill Welch

Re: Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

Bill Welch
 

They are 15-inches.

Bill Welch

Re: Trucks

Ken Adams
 

Well there were at one time the LA garbage trains of slops to feed local pig farms....And here I grew up in Oregon and never heard that term as applied to lumber waste. Oh well.

Re: Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

Nelson Moyer
 

What are the brake wheel diameters in scale inches? I’m looking to replace some resin cast brake wheels that were damaged/destroyed during handling and operation.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 11:11 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Before leaving for the C'ville RPM I ordered three different Tank Car parts sets for Tangent with brake wheels. Here is a Shoppers Guide:

#95009-07 contains only one Brake Wheel. Photo on the site was very small and I could tell what I was getting so I took a leap. $3.00 The one brake wheel included is replicated in the other two parts packages.

#95015-09 contains the three brake wheels you see here and very nice Reservoir, Brake Cylinder and AB but cost $8.00. There may some other useful tank car things but will not repeat.

#95007-06 This has the same brake wheels as above—$3.00.

Two of them are dished although not sure this comes thru in the photos.

Hopefully the Brake Wheel Mavins here can ID each one.

Bill Welch

Re: Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill

The one in the middle is definitely SUPERIOR. I don't recognize the others,
but the one on the left may be a late "stamped" style rather than a cast wheel.

Tim



Hopefully the Brake Wheel Mavins here can ID each one.
Bill Welch
Attachments:

Re: Double sheath siding overlap

Richard Townsend
 

Dennis, thanks so much for your detailed and enlightening response. 

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Jul 26, 2018 8:09 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Double sheath siding overlap

There is no structural reason to do it either way, but my gut feeling is that having the sheathing on the carsides overlapping the sheathing on the end was more common, likely because there was more fiddly cutting on the ends, so they were likely done first. That also happens to be what the Pullman drawing for the 36" NYC car Accurail just did shows.... But it may not look like a separate board. The reason we can see the board edges is because of the bevel that formed a  V grove when the siding was laid up. But there was no reason for the carpenters to work that bevel on the cut edges at the corner so the tightly joined boards may appear as one slightly wider board. There was also a subset of cars built with oversize corner and end posts that came through the sheathing, either flush with the outer surface (common for corner posts) or projecting out a couple inches (common for end posts). This was a strategy to get bigger (and stringer) posts to fin within the constrained thickness of the walls.

I suggest you browse through the images in the Steamtown photo Collection that are occasionally posted here, there are a lot of different wood car images.
Here's an example: Wood Boxcars

On the nearest car, SP 85753, it appears they did bevel the cut edges to form a V grove, while on the next car, Soo 19764 they didn't, and the corner board just appears to be a slightly wider board, except near the bottom, where weather has taken its toll and the joint is opening up. The Soo car also illustrates the end post coming through the sheathing, visible just to the right of the brake staff. The third car in line also appears to have a wider corner board; it can either be a tight joint between two corner boards or a flush post; no way to really tell.

A couple other general statements, dating back to my days as a carpenter: The end board will naturally lose it's edge bevel when the groove is cut off; it is considered very poor practice to just leave an empty groove. So, if they want a V groove, it's extra work to bevel the cut edges. Likewise, a run of siding rarely works out to be an exact multiple of the board width, so the end boards are where the difference is made up. It is considered good practice to split the amount of difference between both end boards. If the two end boards would be smaller than half the standard board width, one less board is used so the end boards are closer to full width. Conversely, if the area to be covered is only slightly wider than a multiple of the board width, which would leave a skinny little strip, one more board is used so each end board is just slightly wider than one half a board. I'm sure these general rules were followed by the car builders. When the cars needed repair, the carmen on the RIP track may not be quite so picky,

Dennis Storzek

Tangent Horizontal Brake Wheels

Bill Welch
 
Edited

Before leaving for the C'ville RPM I ordered three different Tank Car parts sets for Tangent with brake wheels. Here is a Shoppers Guide:

#95009-07 contains only one Brake Wheel. Photo on the site was very small and I could tell what I was getting so I took a leap. $3.00 The one brake wheel included is replicated in the other two parts packages.

#95015-09 contains the three brake wheels you see here and very nice Reservoir, Brake Cylinder and AB but cost $8.00. There may some other useful tank car things but will not repeat.

#95007-06 This has the same brake wheels as above—$3.00.

Two of them are dished although not sure this comes thru in the photos.

Hopefully the Brake Wheel Mavins here can ID each one.

Bill Welch

Re: Double sheath siding overlap

Dennis Storzek
 

There is no structural reason to do it either way, but my gut feeling is that having the sheathing on the carsides overlapping the sheathing on the end was more common, likely because there was more fiddly cutting on the ends, so they were likely done first. That also happens to be what the Pullman drawing for the 36" NYC car Accurail just did shows.... But it may not look like a separate board. The reason we can see the board edges is because of the bevel that formed a  V grove when the siding was laid up. But there was no reason for the carpenters to work that bevel on the cut edges at the corner so the tightly joined boards may appear as one slightly wider board. There was also a subset of cars built with oversize corner and end posts that came through the sheathing, either flush with the outer surface (common for corner posts) or projecting out a couple inches (common for end posts). This was a strategy to get bigger (and stringer) posts to fin within the constrained thickness of the walls.

I suggest you browse through the images in the Steamtown photo Collection that are occasionally posted here, there are a lot of different wood car images.
Here's an example: Wood Boxcars

On the nearest car, SP 85753, it appears they did bevel the cut edges to form a V grove, while on the next car, Soo 19764 they didn't, and the corner board just appears to be a slightly wider board, except near the bottom, where weather has taken its toll and the joint is opening up. The Soo car also illustrates the end post coming through the sheathing, visible just to the right of the brake staff. The third car in line also appears to have a wider corner board; it can either be a tight joint between two corner boards or a flush post; no way to really tell.

A couple other general statements, dating back to my days as a carpenter: The end board will naturally lose it's edge bevel when the groove is cut off; it is considered very poor practice to just leave an empty groove. So, if they want a V groove, it's extra work to bevel the cut edges. Likewise, a run of siding rarely works out to be an exact multiple of the board width, so the end boards are where the difference is made up. It is considered good practice to split the amount of difference between both end boards. If the two end boards would be smaller than half the standard board width, one less board is used so the end boards are closer to full width. Conversely, if the area to be covered is only slightly wider than a multiple of the board width, which would leave a skinny little strip, one more board is used so each end board is just slightly wider than one half a board. I'm sure these general rules were followed by the car builders. When the cars needed repair, the carmen on the RIP track may not be quite so picky,

Dennis Storzek

Other Collinsville Ill. Recommendations!

m repka
 

After the great RPM meet, I stayed at the Super 8 in Collinsville until my 4PM flight back south on Tuesday and on Sunday night tried that J.T. Coltons Steak house where maybe the last in the land Ponderosa was until a few years ago and Coltons is great, very good service a fantastic 8 oz. steak salad and one side for only 13 something plus coffee tax and tip and well worth it! Place is beautiful inside and even has some RR pictures and themes. They are a chain from Little Rock Ark. Monday railfannned for about three hours at Dupo Ill. and the ex MP flavor of the River Sub is still evident in some of the sort of pink red ballast in some places and the only thing missing is a Cotton Belt train with incredible dirty and worn locomotives! On Sunday evening after dark the New Old Tymes saloon has the bar facing north so if you sit at the end you look right across the street at the very busy main! Tuesday spent 30 minutes or more on the bridge over the ex CNW Madison Ill. yard which 50% of is taken up by the Mid America Railcar company and the 150+ passenger cars either awaiting restoration, sale, or rusting onto the ties! Then only a mile away the Main St. Bridge at Madison TRRA hump yard that had two sets of the real sharp TRRA power, a KCS set and a BNSF set all moving at the same time along with a job humping cars! Great Railfan bridge, good sidewalks on both sides, neighborhood is what I would call "seen much better days" And USX Granite City Works is back up and running and they are hiring steelworkers with a big sign billboard! Ohh also on Monday morn climbed the steps of the Cahokia Indian mound which is as tall as the Gateway Arch or higher! All built with baskets! Mike R.

Re: Trucks

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Yes, and Great Northern had a bunch of such cars also, a couple types at least. They were converted boxcars much like the SP car shown earlier in this thread, but only 40’ or so long. The G.N. cars had the roof removed, and the sides replaced with (mostly) solid sheathing (no big door), but with several (4 or 5) smaller openings a few feet square near the bottom. These had wooden doors in the openings that hinged upward so the hog-fuel could be dumped beside the car.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jul 25, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Correct. I have a 1933 photo of Northern Pacific "hog fuel" cars (flat cars with
tall stake sides) loaded with chunks of wood, as well as a photo of NP gondolas
loaded with the much finer wood shavings.

Tim O'Connor


 I think that's Hog Fuel not Hog Feed. It's ground up wood chips and small chuunks from
 a sawmill or planing operation. It's an ancestor of modern wood-chip cars. The hog is a
 big grinder that takes sawmill slash and grinds it up into hog fuel. Today we're more likely
 to call them chippers. The term hog fuel also applies to small wood blocks and sticks. Such
 combustible stuf was commonly used as fuel for donkey engines and such.
 Dan Mitchell

Re: Trucks

Tim O'Connor
 


Correct. I have a 1933 photo of Northern Pacific "hog fuel" cars (flat cars with
tall stake sides) loaded with chunks of wood, as well as a photo of NP gondolas
loaded with the much finer wood shavings.

Tim O'Connor


 I think that's Hog Fuel not Hog Feed. It's ground up wood chips and small chuunks from
 a sawmill or planing operation. It's an ancestor of modern wood-chip cars. The hog is a
 big grinder that takes sawmill slash and grinds it up into hog fuel. Today we're more likely
 to call them chippers. The term hog fuel also applies to small wood blocks and sticks. Such
 combustible stuf was commonly used as fuel for donkey engines and such.
 Dan Mitchell

Re: Hog Fuel

 

At first thought it was food for RR egineers AKA hoggers. -)

Re: Trucks

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Indeed. Any really heavy cut in metal or woodworking is often still called “hogging”.

Today there are also a bunch of big “hogs” mounted on semi-trailers that visit logging and demolition projects. The ground-up product is much easier to transport or dispose of 
than the raw material.

Dan Mitchell
retired machinist
=============

On Jul 25, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Hogs are still what really big chippers are called. Ask anyone in the forest products business. And machinists (remember them?) still hog parts out of stock.
Tony Thompson 

On Jul 25, 2018, at 12:00 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:

Hog feed cars....a little late for my constraining period dates (1946-54) but what an interesting prototype....go hog wild on building a string....