Date   

Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

richard glueck
 

Jim:  Fascinating bit of research on your part.  Thank you for sharing. 

On the Penobscot and even on Moosehead Lake, log drives continued until the 1970's, and the bark and other debris had long turned the river water "pea green".  It has taken until the current decade to start seeing historic game fish back in the river.  I should add, there is a small business in harvesting extra-large logs from ancient days, still submerged in the waters. 

I don't know of any remains from ice houses on the shores.  Many were leveled by fires, as one newspaper reported, "reducing the building and its ice to ashes". 

Anyway, the ice discussion is fascinating, whether it was potable or portable!

-Dick

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 1:46:19 AM EDT, np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:


Richard, 
     in my research reefers, reefer traffic, and on icing of reefers, and more to the point currently, of ice collection, there were two different types of ice "Potable" and "otherwise". Potable, which is another way of saying "Safe to drink". I am not sure the exact date this started however in my research, I can rather easily find records back to the 1910's that show that water was being tested.   
     Ice cooling the drinks in the dining cars WAS subject to all of the state, local, and federal laws just the same as the water that came out of the tap of domestic houses. Clear Lake, White Bear Lake, and Detroit (now Detroit Lakes) MN, and additionally there were lakes in the more elevated areas of the Rockies and Cascades along the Northern Pacific like Thorp, WA. that were listed as areas of potable ice up to the 1930's. However not so much after that. In Northern Pacific archives exist records that these waters from which ice was melted were regularly tested to ensure they were safe for human consumption.  
    Of the "otherwise" ice, ice that goes into a bunker never touches the cargo. A doodie in the ice would go down the ice bunker drain, like Bill says " It's no big deal". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxiXGr9nFM    Of ice used as top icing, that I cannot answer - as I have never gave it to much thought regarding modeling. I would imagine (and beyond that have would have to get the desire to research it) however would imagine that anything that touched food for human consumption would be checked for cleanliness.
    
The interest in clean water, clean ice, (germaphobia) was pretty well roaring in the 1900's. Subway tile could be argued is a by-product of this early fervor.

        Of mechanical ice railway plants, I think that has been addressed here before. Not common however not unknown by the 1900's. By the 1910's and 1920's articles in Railway Age can be found for mechanically produced ice factories that railroads were installing which produced in the tens of thousands of tons daily.                                     Jim Dick - St. Paul 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Nelson Moyer
 

According to Jeff Wilson's book, "Produce Traffic and Trains", charcoal heaters were replaced with alcohol heaters in the 1940. Alcohol heaters were thermostatically controlled and had a pilot light, so that it was not necessary to remove and replace them with temperature variations as with the older charcoal heaters. From photos In the book, it looks like the alcohol heaters were smaller and lighter than charcoal heaters. A side bar on alcohol heaters shows a photo of the Preco version of an alcohol heater.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefers: Heaters

Jim,

What type heaters are you referring to? I would guess during this groups time frame charcoal heaters would have been the norm. FWIW I never ran across a charcoal heater installed the way you described.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Bruce Smith
 

Jake, 

Just jig it. ;)  By that I mean find something with the radius or near the radius you want and use that as a jig.  Oh, and wire is cheap. So what if you throw away every other one!

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Temporarily in Mobile, Alabama


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of J S <jjschaible@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:53 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons
 
Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible



Re: Shrouded tank cars: floors?

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The Monsanto car in St. Louis does not have a floor under its hood.  A photo is attached.
 
It is my belief that such cars, in general, did not have floors.  The hood (shroud, etc?) often covered heating coils that were external to the tank due to potential issues relating to the interaction between the tank contents and any escaping steam/water.  UTLX pioneered such a car circa 1914 for carrying paraffin wax.  Later uses included transformer oil.
 
The Monsanto car does not have heater coils, however.  So that it could also be related to trapping noxious gases.
 
More than you asked for, but less that definitive.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 1:04 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shrouded tank cars: floors?

There were some tank cars with shrouds (for insulation?) that curved across the top of the car and then went down vertically to the cars' running boards. Examples are on p. 18 of Jim Kinkaid's Tank Car Color Guide volume 1 (Morning Sun) and one, a Monsanto car, is preserved at the transportation museum in St. Louis. Ambroid's old Riverside Oil Company tank car kit is another example. But my question is this: did these cars have full floors, or was the car open frame like any other tank car? Or maybe partial floors?

And no, these are not removable containers like on the butterdish milk cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Walter
 

Jim,

What type heaters are you referring to? I would guess during this groups time frame charcoal heaters would have been the norm. FWIW I never ran across a charcoal heater installed the way you described.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Joseph
 

Jake, 
Since I have a few (6)of those kits built up, I might have the jig for you.  Send me your snail mail off line and I will send one to you
Joe Binish


On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:36 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

AMB put a jig in their MSTL caboose kit that allows bending perfect curved caboose grabs. It is made of clear acrylic, with a curved piece glued in place for forming the curved hand rail. See the attached photo for the jig and samples.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of J S
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:54 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons

 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible

<caboose handrail jig.JPG>


Re: Icing in general was: Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

Peter Ness
 

Let’s not forget fish!  To my knowledge the New Haven shipped fish daily on BH-1 at least into the early  ‘50’s.  It was in fact called “The Fish Train”.  Fish in Boston were packed in iced crates and shipped in reefers to Harlem River Yard in New York.  That was the terminal point for the New Haven; if all fhis was sold on New York Markets or continued on perhaps via PRR, I don’t know…

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 1:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general was: Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

 

Approximately every 24 hours. And it was the pretty much the same for produce and meat. The amount of salt used was quite different between produce and meat. Many variables were at play which determined the amount of ice: outside temp, desired temp inside the reefer, contents of the reefer, etc. Regular shippers of produce and meat had agents strategically placed along their regular routes, who gathered weather information, relayed that to the shipper, who then determined how much ice to put in each car/bunker at the next ice stop. Too much ice simply cost the shipper, per the railroad’s charges, with excess ice dumped on the ground at the destination. Too little ice cost the shipper in a spoiled load that had to be sold at reduced price or even dumped.

 

Some time ago Tony Thompson posted a listing of temps required for shipping each kind of produce. The desired temp is what dictated the amount of ice and salt to be used.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pierre Oliver
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:28 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general was: Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

 

It's my understanding that it was a daily event

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 8/28/18 12:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:

Last night at our Monday Night op session the question of how long would reefers go between icing was brought up. No one had a good answer and meat was confused with produce.

Can someone give the approximate [ballpark] time between icings while a produce car was in transit? Say from coast to coast? How about a meat reefer traveling from the Upper Midwest to the east coast?

Thanks for any assistance,
Clark Propst
 

 


Shrouded tank cars: floors?

Richard Townsend
 

There were some tank cars with shrouds (for insulation?) that curved across the top of the car and then went down vertically to the cars' running boards. Examples are on p. 18 of Jim Kinkaid's Tank Car Color Guide volume 1 (Morning Sun) and one, a Monsanto car, is preserved at the transportation museum in St. Louis. Ambroid's old Riverside Oil Company tank car kit is another example. But my question is this: did these cars have full floors, or was the car open frame like any other tank car? Or maybe partial floors?

And no, these are not removable containers like on the butterdish milk cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
_._,_._,_


Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

np328
 

Richard, 
     in my research reefers, reefer traffic, and on icing of reefers, and more to the point currently, of ice collection, there were two different types of ice "Potable" and "otherwise". Potable, which is another way of saying "Safe to drink". I am not sure the exact date this started however in my research, I can rather easily find records back to the 1910's that show that water was being tested.   
     Ice cooling the drinks in the dining cars WAS subject to all of the state, local, and federal laws just the same as the water that came out of the tap of domestic houses. Clear Lake, White Bear Lake, and Detroit (now Detroit Lakes) MN, and additionally there were lakes in the more elevated areas of the Rockies and Cascades along the Northern Pacific like Thorp, WA. that were listed as areas of potable ice up to the 1930's. However not so much after that. In Northern Pacific archives exist records that these waters from which ice was melted were regularly tested to ensure they were safe for human consumption.  
    Of the "otherwise" ice, ice that goes into a bunker never touches the cargo. A doodie in the ice would go down the ice bunker drain, like Bill says " It's no big deal". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxiXGr9nFM    Of ice used as top icing, that I cannot answer - as I have never gave it to much thought regarding modeling. I would imagine (and beyond that have would have to get the desire to research it) however would imagine that anything that touched food for human consumption would be checked for cleanliness.
    
The interest in clean water, clean ice, (germaphobia) was pretty well roaring in the 1900's. Subway tile could be argued is a by-product of this early fervor.

        Of mechanical ice railway plants, I think that has been addressed here before. Not common however not unknown by the 1900's. By the 1910's and 1920's articles in Railway Age can be found for mechanically produced ice factories that railroads were installing which produced in the tens of thousands of tons daily.                                     Jim Dick - St. Paul 


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Douglas Harding
 

AMB put a jig in their MSTL caboose kit that allows bending perfect curved caboose grabs. It is made of clear acrylic, with a curved piece glued in place for forming the curved hand rail. See the attached photo for the jig and samples.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of J S
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:54 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons

 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Jake Schaible
 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible



Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

richard glueck
 

Understand, that was Maine lake or river cut ice.  Up until the forties, the winter ice was cut in huge blocks and stored ashore in ice houses.  The insulation in those buildings was walls packed with saw dust and chips from the saw mills and boatyards lining the Penobscot, or Moosehead Lake, other hundred other locations.  The ice was ships world wide on coasting schooner and sometimes five masted schooner.  It was a precious commodity until the invention of the mechanical freezer.

I wonder who discovered the ice came from the same waters that carried the sewerage?  Then again, who was the first person to look at a lobster and say, "I wanna eat that."?

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: New Tools for the Clearwater Car Shops

Peter Ness
 

I find if I cut the large sprues to either side of the small part, keep the part small part and small connecting sprue on my cutting mat and the large, cut sprue pieces off the cutting mat edge, a single edge razor usually works OK.  I could be wrong, but seems to me the small part and small connecting sprue are stress concentrators from the larger diameter sprue. Leaving the large diameter sprue ends free after cutting removes the stress conditions…

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of tyesac@... via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 9:53 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Tools for the Clearwater Car Shops

 

A razor saw works the same way, but you need to brace the thicker sprue to cause breakage of the smaller part.   It's a handy way to separate extremely thin molded ladders from their runners.

 

Tom Casey 

-----Original Message-----
From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 27, 2018 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Tools for the Clearwater Car Shops

Good tip (no pun intended) Charlie.  I’ve managed to break parts just as you describe.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 4:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Tools for the Clearwater Car Shops

 

All-

I found that (like the InterMountain N Scale Brake Wheels and some of the Walthers HO CB&Q Waycar Details) that were impossible to cut off plastic sprues without ruining the parts.   Cutting the thick runner next to delicate parts puts enough pressure on the part to break it.

The best solution I’ve found for such parts is to use a soldering pencil to melt the sprue off the part so you only have the thin connector hanging off the part which can be shaved or filed/sanded away.   Perhaps a wood burning pencil could have an Exacto blade inserted (some have the same style tip holder) for more precise control.

Charlie Vlk

 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Can Anyone Identify the ownership of the flat car with the transformer load?

Peter Ness
 

It's not New Haven.

Peter Ness

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 7:52 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Can Anyone Identify the ownership
of the flat car with the transformer load?

Gary;

I don't know, but it isn't PRR.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of gary laakso
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 7:06 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Can Anyone Identify the ownership of
the flat car with the transformer load?

The flat car appears around 4 min n 30 seconds into the clip and again near
the 5 minute mark:



Blockedhttps://www.johnpmedia.com/dvds/the-pennsy-off-the-beaten-track



Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Bending custom grab irons

mike turner
 

Lester,

I made a similar jig using .064" brass. The wire to be bent was 0.008" stainless welding wire. The hole sizes I used had a much smaller clearance (0.003") than the 0.010"-0.020" you used. A clearance closer to that you used now works much better for mine. Nice blog entry. :)

Mike Turner

MP-Z35


Re: Icing in general

Benjamin Hom
 

Jim Dick asked:
"Where is Ben Hom to say "Doesn't anybody check the files?"

Sorry...lost interest during the meandering thread on 70-ton trucks that turned into a discussions on stuff that had nothing to do with anything.


Ben Hom





Re: Icing in general

np328
 

   Where is Ben Hom to say "Doesn't anybody check the files?" 

      Re-read the file I had posted in 2015 " Transit Times for produce West Coast to Chicago - New York."  It is REA scanned documents that give a good synopsis.  
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Transit%20times%20for%20produce%20West%20Coast%20to%20Chicago%20-%20New%20York 
If nothing else, read the Appendix J. Of the rest, it deals with schedules of 1932 era trains that are arriving so far a head of schedule (fifth morning New York) it was causing problems.   

      I would heartily agree with Tony Thompson's "24 hours" and I will add that on the Northern Pacific, roughly every 500 to 1000 miles however this later mileage listing seems to be to cover contingencies and/or local conditions or harvests. On the NP, 24 hours seemed to be a good rule of thumb also. 
      To expand on that, there is also a document I had uploaded to the files earlier in 2009. "Fruit and Vegetable Transit in PNW - 1934. (no hot link however files page 11) - Open this and note under the UP section, the number of emergency icing stations. The reason I mention this is that (on any railroad) just because there is an icing station should not be taken as every train stopped there. These trains were expedited trains. Richard Hendrickson did a presentation eons ago at the old Sunshine RPM HI site in which reefers moved CA field to NY kitchen table in five days.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim Dick - St. Paul 


Re: Icing in general

Tony Thompson
 

Time in the sun likely more important than distance. But always remember, shippers chose this. As modelers, average time may or may not be what we need (depending on how meticulous we choose to be).
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 28, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...> wrote:

Tony says 24 hours.
I heard 250 miles (roughly).
Figuring average speed of a freight train in 1940 was 11 MPH...
 
Paul Catapano



Re: Reefers: Heaters

np328
 

Heaters are "suspended" while in use in the reefer and I use that word in lack of a better one. 
They are chained in three or four places radially around the heaters anchored equal distance from the bunker walls. Not touching the floor either.
I have to think this is a two man job as someone has to clip the heater to the bunker walls once it is lowered and another man to pull the first person out as a safety measure.
 
  I used to have a heater I had picked up cheap ($25) at a railroad flea market. I left it behind somewhere knowingly as I came later question what value it really held. 

I would agree that 18 - 24 inches of diameter with 30 inches in height is close enough to get an idea of size. 

I will look up some images I have and post them.                                                           Jim Dick - St. Paul 


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Curt Fortenberry
 


Bevel underneath so you create a slight overbend to allow for spring back.

Curt Fortenberry

30381 - 30400 of 188620