Date   

Re: Icing in general

Tony Thompson
 

Time intervals could be specified under the tariff. I don't know the relative proportion of the various options in actual use.
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 29, 2018, at 10:14 AM, Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

To add a little bit of detail to Tony’s comment (that the Shipper got to choose), a UP Freight Conductor’s book noted the following different icing instructions for cars in the train (Roseville Fruit, departing Rawlins, WY on 10/13/1938):

 

Standard Ventilation = no ice, hatches open/closed based upon ambient temperatures.

 

Vents Closed to Destination = no ice, hatches closed.

 

Do Not Re-ice = iced initially, but no ice added enroute.

 

Re-Ice at _____ = re-iced only at specific location(s).

 

Standard Refrigeration = re-iced at all regular icing stations.

 

Std. Refrig with 12% salt = re-iced with 12% salt at all regular icing stations

 

One car was noted as having Std. Ventilation to Laramie, then Std. Refrigeration.

 

I notice that quantity of ice is not specified, which is consistent with Tony’s comment that they filled the bunkers.

I also notice that durations (time) are not specified; only locations (regular icing stations or specific icing stations).  Perhaps the duration info was translated into location for the benefit of the conductor.

 

The above data is from a presentation given by Mark Amfahr at the UPHS convention in 2013.

 

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general

 

    This was decided by the shipper. Normally 24 hours would be selected, but in cool weather a shipper could choose a longer interval (or could specify the icing stations used). In hot weather, they could specify shorter times. They could even choose to let the railroad make sure ice was "sufficient," but railroads hated that because they were then easily the victims of damage claims. I'm sure local agents worked hard to talk shippers out of that option.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 



 


Re: Icing in general

Aley, Jeff A
 

To add a little bit of detail to Tony’s comment (that the Shipper got to choose), a UP Freight Conductor’s book noted the following different icing instructions for cars in the train (Roseville Fruit, departing Rawlins, WY on 10/13/1938):

 

Standard Ventilation = no ice, hatches open/closed based upon ambient temperatures.

 

Vents Closed to Destination = no ice, hatches closed.

 

Do Not Re-ice = iced initially, but no ice added enroute.

 

Re-Ice at _____ = re-iced only at specific location(s).

 

Standard Refrigeration = re-iced at all regular icing stations.

 

Std. Refrig with 12% salt = re-iced with 12% salt at all regular icing stations

 

One car was noted as having Std. Ventilation to Laramie, then Std. Refrigeration.

 

I notice that quantity of ice is not specified, which is consistent with Tony’s comment that they filled the bunkers.

I also notice that durations (time) are not specified; only locations (regular icing stations or specific icing stations).  Perhaps the duration info was translated into location for the benefit of the conductor.

 

The above data is from a presentation given by Mark Amfahr at the UPHS convention in 2013.

 

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general

 

    This was decided by the shipper. Normally 24 hours would be selected, but in cool weather a shipper could choose a longer interval (or could specify the icing stations used). In hot weather, they could specify shorter times. They could even choose to let the railroad make sure ice was "sufficient," but railroads hated that because they were then easily the victims of damage claims. I'm sure local agents worked hard to talk shippers out of that option.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 



 


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Nelson Moyer
 

I was just reporting what I read. You didn't mention which railroad(s). Maybe some converted sooner? Weren't ice reefers about phased out by the early 1970. I think I read that the last icing platform was owned by PFE, and it was closed in either 1974 or 1976. Many roads switched to mechanical reefers earlier than that. I guess all the heater discussion is purely academic, since we don't model heaters or heater service.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 10:40 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefers: Heaters

Nelson,

I was refueling charcoal heaters into 1970.

Lenny Ohrnell


Preco Mechanical Icing Machine

Bob Chaparro
 

This week I discovered that Preco made mechanical icing machines, as evidenced by the label on the machine in the photo:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IZsk7Dl1CQ8/V7ksZ2CB1WI/AAAAAAAANKo/aAxekuPw7Jw0MNp4a4DQ9OEf3kmVKFA6gCLcB/s1600/2001.1.20024.jpg

The Link Belt Company also made mechanical icing machines and related systems.  Unfortunately, when I contacted Link Belt, nobody knew that they had once been in that business and no material was available.

Does anyone know if there were other major players in the mechanical icing machine business?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

Bob Chaparro
 

Totally agree but the shippers and USDA were still testing methods in that era. I think (but have no documentation) that the shippers were going on the cheap for the first 24 hours of the trip, hoping the blocks would work just well enough while allowing them to avoid carrier icing charges.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

Geodyssey
 

"...The method is to fill the bunkers with block ice corded or laid in such manner as to form practically a solid mass. In this way it is possible to place 15,000 to 16,000 pounds of block ice in bunkers of refrigerator cars which have a rated capacity of 11,000 pounds of chunk ice." (USDA)

I didn't know this. Looks like that's what they were doing in the photo. Thanks.

Robert Simpson


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Bob Chaparro
 

There are Jack Delano photos showing the older, larger charcoal heaters being lowered into cars in 1943. The newer alcohol heaters were smaller and required less work to load. Below are some photos from my collection.
Bob Chaparro
Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group
https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup


Re: Shrouded tank cars: floors?

Richard Townsend
 

Thanks so much, Steve. Maybe more than I asked for but just what I wanted to know. I appreciate it.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Aug 29, 2018 5:58 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Shrouded tank cars: floors?

The Monsanto car in St. Louis does not have a floor under its hood.  A photo is attached.
 
It is my belief that such cars, in general, did not have floors.  The hood (shroud, etc?) often covered heating coils that were external to the tank due to potential issues relating to the interaction between the tank contents and any escaping steam/water.  UTLX pioneered such a car circa 1914 for carrying paraffin wax.  Later uses included transformer oil.
 
The Monsanto car does not have heater coils, however.  So that it could also be related to trapping noxious gases.
 
More than you asked for, but less that definitive.
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 1:04 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shrouded tank cars: floors?

There were some tank cars with shrouds (for insulation?) that curved across the top of the car and then went down vertically to the cars' running boards. Examples are on p. 18 of Jim Kinkaid's Tank Car Color Guide volume 1 (Morning Sun) and one, a Monsanto car, is preserved at the transportation museum in St. Louis. Ambroid's old Riverside Oil Company tank car kit is another example. But my question is this: did these cars have full floors, or was the car open frame like any other tank car? Or maybe partial floors?

And no, these are not removable containers like on the butterdish milk cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


Bending curved grab irons - Kadee pliers

Jim King
 

I use Kadee’s coupler trip pin pliers to create various round shapes in HO, S and O.  While the various steps don’t equate to an exact radius, it gets me close so that minor adjustment finishes the part.

 

Jim King

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Walter
 

Nelson,

I was refueling charcoal heaters into 1970.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Joseph
 

John, 
Found the last one in the bottom of the caboose stuff drawer

On the waaaay as artillery guys say

Enjoy,
Joe Binish


On Aug 29, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Peter Ness <prness@...> wrote:

Jake,

 

I have a good supply of curved grabs these days, but in the past I have used a dowel (1/2” or less) or coin (quarter) and wrapped a length of wire.  Once the wire is curved, even if the radius is not correct as needed, it can be formed to the correct radius. Bend the legs 90° to the curve an done. To be sure you get 90° legs, place the curved section on the corner of a flat box top with the legs sticking out over the edges on either side of the corner.  Tape the curved part down if you need to.  Bend the legs down on the box sides. Done.

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of J S
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 6:54 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons

 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Peter Ness
 

Jake,

 

I have a good supply of curved grabs these days, but in the past I have used a dowel (1/2” or less) or coin (quarter) and wrapped a length of wire.  Once the wire is curved, even if the radius is not correct as needed, it can be formed to the correct radius. Bend the legs 90° to the curve an done. To be sure you get 90° legs, place the curved section on the corner of a flat box top with the legs sticking out over the edges on either side of the corner.  Tape the curved part down if you need to.  Bend the legs down on the box sides. Done.

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of J S
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 6:54 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons

 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Joseph
 

Found one of the jigs and instructions, yours if you want it
Joe Binish 


On Aug 29, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Jake, 

Just jig it. ;)  By that I mean find something with the radius or near the radius you want and use that as a jig.  Oh, and wire is cheap. So what if you throw away every other one!

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Temporarily in Mobile, Alabama


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of J S <jjschaible@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:53 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons
 
Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible



Re: glasses for better color perception?

mopacfirst
 

I took the test.  Nope, I'm in the 20% that they can't help.

RG7


Re: Icing Reefers In Maine

richard glueck
 

Jim:  Fascinating bit of research on your part.  Thank you for sharing. 

On the Penobscot and even on Moosehead Lake, log drives continued until the 1970's, and the bark and other debris had long turned the river water "pea green".  It has taken until the current decade to start seeing historic game fish back in the river.  I should add, there is a small business in harvesting extra-large logs from ancient days, still submerged in the waters. 

I don't know of any remains from ice houses on the shores.  Many were leveled by fires, as one newspaper reported, "reducing the building and its ice to ashes". 

Anyway, the ice discussion is fascinating, whether it was potable or portable!

-Dick

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 1:46:19 AM EDT, np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:


Richard, 
     in my research reefers, reefer traffic, and on icing of reefers, and more to the point currently, of ice collection, there were two different types of ice "Potable" and "otherwise". Potable, which is another way of saying "Safe to drink". I am not sure the exact date this started however in my research, I can rather easily find records back to the 1910's that show that water was being tested.   
     Ice cooling the drinks in the dining cars WAS subject to all of the state, local, and federal laws just the same as the water that came out of the tap of domestic houses. Clear Lake, White Bear Lake, and Detroit (now Detroit Lakes) MN, and additionally there were lakes in the more elevated areas of the Rockies and Cascades along the Northern Pacific like Thorp, WA. that were listed as areas of potable ice up to the 1930's. However not so much after that. In Northern Pacific archives exist records that these waters from which ice was melted were regularly tested to ensure they were safe for human consumption.  
    Of the "otherwise" ice, ice that goes into a bunker never touches the cargo. A doodie in the ice would go down the ice bunker drain, like Bill says " It's no big deal". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxiXGr9nFM    Of ice used as top icing, that I cannot answer - as I have never gave it to much thought regarding modeling. I would imagine (and beyond that have would have to get the desire to research it) however would imagine that anything that touched food for human consumption would be checked for cleanliness.
    
The interest in clean water, clean ice, (germaphobia) was pretty well roaring in the 1900's. Subway tile could be argued is a by-product of this early fervor.

        Of mechanical ice railway plants, I think that has been addressed here before. Not common however not unknown by the 1900's. By the 1910's and 1920's articles in Railway Age can be found for mechanically produced ice factories that railroads were installing which produced in the tens of thousands of tons daily.                                     Jim Dick - St. Paul 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Nelson Moyer
 

According to Jeff Wilson's book, "Produce Traffic and Trains", charcoal heaters were replaced with alcohol heaters in the 1940. Alcohol heaters were thermostatically controlled and had a pilot light, so that it was not necessary to remove and replace them with temperature variations as with the older charcoal heaters. From photos In the book, it looks like the alcohol heaters were smaller and lighter than charcoal heaters. A side bar on alcohol heaters shows a photo of the Preco version of an alcohol heater.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefers: Heaters

Jim,

What type heaters are you referring to? I would guess during this groups time frame charcoal heaters would have been the norm. FWIW I never ran across a charcoal heater installed the way you described.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Bruce Smith
 

Jake, 

Just jig it. ;)  By that I mean find something with the radius or near the radius you want and use that as a jig.  Oh, and wire is cheap. So what if you throw away every other one!

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Temporarily in Mobile, Alabama


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of J S <jjschaible@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:53 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons
 
Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible



Re: Shrouded tank cars: floors?

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The Monsanto car in St. Louis does not have a floor under its hood.  A photo is attached.
 
It is my belief that such cars, in general, did not have floors.  The hood (shroud, etc?) often covered heating coils that were external to the tank due to potential issues relating to the interaction between the tank contents and any escaping steam/water.  UTLX pioneered such a car circa 1914 for carrying paraffin wax.  Later uses included transformer oil.
 
The Monsanto car does not have heater coils, however.  So that it could also be related to trapping noxious gases.
 
More than you asked for, but less that definitive.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 1:04 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Shrouded tank cars: floors?

There were some tank cars with shrouds (for insulation?) that curved across the top of the car and then went down vertically to the cars' running boards. Examples are on p. 18 of Jim Kinkaid's Tank Car Color Guide volume 1 (Morning Sun) and one, a Monsanto car, is preserved at the transportation museum in St. Louis. Ambroid's old Riverside Oil Company tank car kit is another example. But my question is this: did these cars have full floors, or was the car open frame like any other tank car? Or maybe partial floors?

And no, these are not removable containers like on the butterdish milk cars.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


Re: Reefers: Heaters

Walter
 

Jim,

What type heaters are you referring to? I would guess during this groups time frame charcoal heaters would have been the norm. FWIW I never ran across a charcoal heater installed the way you described.

Lenny Ohrnell


Re: Bending custom grab irons

Joseph
 

Jake, 
Since I have a few (6)of those kits built up, I might have the jig for you.  Send me your snail mail off line and I will send one to you
Joe Binish


On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:36 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

AMB put a jig in their MSTL caboose kit that allows bending perfect curved caboose grabs. It is made of clear acrylic, with a curved piece glued in place for forming the curved hand rail. See the attached photo for the jig and samples.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of J S
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:54 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bending custom grab irons

 

Anyone have tips for bending custom CURVED grab rails akin to that on the side ends of a caboose?  My first attempts have been less than ideal.  So much so, I've been thinking photo etched brass might rather be the solution to get it repeatably correct.  

Cheers,
Jake Schaible

<caboose handrail jig.JPG>

25001 - 25020 of 183254