Date   

Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

I think you’re correct, but it’s really quite confused.

The exact original meaning of the designations R, RD, and D are mostly lost to history. Documentation of the period is confused. The “R” series tractors used gasoline engines, though some of the line that used the gas engines were never called “R” anything. Examples are the Cat 30 and 60. When the Diesel engines came along only some of the line got the “RD” designation, and others did not, like the “Diesel 75”. Exactly what “RD” meant is also not clear … some think it stands for Rudolph Diesel, the inventor of the compression-ignition engine. Anyway, by the time the “D” designation came long it meant “Diesel”.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:43 AM, Jim Gates via Groups.Io <jim.gates=ymail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I believe the gasoline engine machines we just R-x, and the RD-x was the diesel version, with the R being removed from the designation later.

Jim Gates
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 9/14/18, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@tir.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Date: Friday, September 14, 2018, 9:40 AM

The “RD” denoted a tractor equipped with a gasoline engine, as opposed to the "D” tractors that were strictly Diesel. The RD8 is
otherwise the same tractor as the early D8.
Dan
Mitchell==========






Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

comments imbedded ...
On Sep 14, 2018, at 4:39 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
It should be noted that early tractors were not so often used as bulldozers. They mostly pulled graders, elevating graders, scrapers, rollers, rippers, and wagons. The utility of the dozer blade was not so obvious at first. As the front mounted blade became the norm for much earthmoving, the tractors were modified to match and the front mounted winches became common.
I agree, the blade was of little utility for moving earth; after the bulldozer knocked down the trees, it was time to bring in the scrapers. After the general adoption of hydraulics, the excavator bucket changed all that.

True that early dozers didn’t “move” a lot of earth, but as they got bigger and more powerful that changed. Today a big dozer is the most effective was to move dirt a short distance. For longer hauls the scraper still is king.

And, aside from huge giant draglines and such, excavators can’t "move” much material ... they just dig it up. Then scrapers of off-road dump-trucks haul it. It is true that hydraulics changed a lot of things. Most cable operated machines were replaced with hydraulic machines. Hydraulics were more responsive and better controlled. They appeard first in the smaller machines, and have been steadily “climbing the ladder” into the larger machines ever since. The truly big “giant excavators” remain cable operated to this day. There are problems with moving huge quantities of hot oil quickly that have not yet been solved, so very big machines are rarely hydraulic (yet).
 
Nowadays one rarely sees a “naked” crawler tractor … they are still occasionally used to pull scrapers as they have more “pull” than a wheeled tractor, but they’re too slow for most current practice. Today crawlers are mostly seen as bulldozers, rippers, and scraper-pushers. Lately there are a bunch of big 4-crawler "rubber-band” tracked machines making inroads since they are midway in performance (“pull” vs. speed) between metal-tracked machines and weeled tractors.
 
 But the blade was still useful for the machines that PUSH the scraper, so as time went on, bladeless machines became less and less common, at least in my experience.

To push a scraper continually and properly the blade had to be redesigned and reinforced. On a conventional bulldozer often this was just a big plate of perhaps 1” thick steel welded in the center of the blade. However for best effect the entire blade had to be modified. It was made narrower, only the width of the tracks, and mounted to the INSIDE of the track frames (normal dozer blades are hung from the outside of the track frames). Such a blade keeps all the immense forces confined to a more compact area, with less overhang, reducing stress. While such a modified blade still has some use as a dozer, it’s now optimized just for pushing concentrated loads. The narrower blade also gives the oeprator a better view of what he’s doing. Yet more extreme mods have the entire blade just reduced to a push-plate.

The big “tandem” D9 tractors (sort of an A & B-unit config., both controlled from the front tractor) were designed just for scraper pushing.

The somewhat similar single-operator “side-by-side” D9 tractors were for pushing huge wide blades, mostly for land reclamation. The first of these, “side-by-side” D8s, were for demolition, in pairs, towing a huge “anchor” chain between them clearing everything (trees, houses, whatever) in their path. Surplus M4 tanks were also similarly used.

And, while tanks with blades were very effective in WWII, they really make poor dozers. Their drive-lines and tracks are too weak for sustained heavy pushing. A dozer’s drive and tracks are far stronger, though that makes them unsuited to higer speed operation as needed in a tank. Thus armored bulldozers still have their place on the battlefield to this day.

Dan MItchell
==========

Dennis Storzek
 
 


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Jim Gates
 

I believe the gasoline engine machines we just R-x, and the RD-x was the diesel version, with the R being removed from the designation later.

Jim Gates
--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 9/14/18, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@tir.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Date: Friday, September 14, 2018, 9:40 AM

The “RD” denoted a tractor equipped with a gasoline engine, as opposed to the "D” tractors that were strictly Diesel. The RD8 is
otherwise the same tractor as the early D8.
Dan
Mitchell==========


Re: Uncoupling levers - Bending you own

Tim O'Connor
 

Lester

Very courageous of you to illustrate your cut levers with an obvious Athearn blue box car! :-)

(I've built many of them myself so don't think I'm being snarky, I'm not.)


I bend all uncoupling levers I use building resin or plastic kits.   I have provided photos of several types from the Car Builders Cyclopedia, dimensions, and described my method for bending custom rod uncoupling levers.  Photos showing bending steps and writeup are on my blog I started to share photos and writeup of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.   If you would like to take a look please do at the following:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer
 
Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Doug Forbes
 

For anyone interested, there is an ARA loading guide for flat cars for sale on eBay. https://goo.gl/WVdAZ6 This is sold by my brother.  He scanned the loading guide and put it all on a disc.  It is really interesting with lots of modeling ideas. Even though its a 1976 version, you can tell a lot of the plans go back to the 1940's or 50's.  
 Doug Forbes


Uncoupling levers - Bending you own

Lester Breuer
 

I bend all uncoupling levers I use building resin or plastic kits.   I have provided photos of several types from the Car Builders’ Cyclopedia, dimensions, and described my method for bending custom rod uncoupling levers.  Photos showing bending steps and writeup are on my blog I started to share photos and writeup of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.   If you would like to take a look please do at the following:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer

 


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

I am really glad I ask my question because I have learned a lot and maybe someone (no pressure) will be motivated to develop a presentation on "Steam Era Construction Equipment as Flat Car Loads" for one of the now several RPM events.

      I wrote a post for my blog awhile back about my model of a Euclid scraper and its flat-car securement. The link to that post is below, if you're interested.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






BULLDOZER FOOTNOTE

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


I have not yet completed one of the Evergreem bulldozers.  An area that was not too clear (to me) in the instructions was the placement of the pedals and operating levers.  I came across on in a museum a few years ago and got some photos which solved this mystery.  Will share if anyone needs help.

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Well, now that I know that Evergreen has risen from the dead I have ordered another bulldozer

Thanks Peter:

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Peter Ness <prness@...>
Date: 9/14/18 8:05 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Bill,

 

I think Evergreen Hill Designs would be saddened to learn they are long gone.  I don’t have the heart to tell them myself! :D

https://evergreenhilldesigns.com/shop?olsPage=t%2Fho-scale-models&page=2

 

Regards,

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 11:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

 

One model that has not been mentioned  is a very good Carerpillar RD-8 from a company called Evergreen Hill Designs.  This is a white metal kit.  The company is long gone (as are so many) but they come up on E-bay.  Good thing I bought two as the wheel/track casting was defective on one (Sound familiar?).  There is not a blade on this model so it fits great on a flat car

 

Bill Pardie

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Bill Welch <fgexbill@...>

Date: 9/13/18 4:15 PM (GMT-10:00)

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

 

Thank you everyone for your responses. I have to admit with so many things to build the fact that the Artitech D7 is ready to put on a flat car deck is very appealing.

Bill Welch


Re: GN box car (was Re: Flat Car Load Securement)

Bill Welch
 

My model of this is a Semi-kit (just major casting, no decals) sold to me by Andy Carlson 20+ years ago. Here is a link to a photo: http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/modeling/models/welch/gn31296main.html

AFAIK the only 40-foot Pratt Trussed car w/Z-bar bracing.

Bill Welch


Re: other loads was D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 9/14/2018 1:10 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
I do agree that the LeTourneau scraper shown would be an excellent item for some manufacturer to model (they are available in 1/48 scale).

    Time for a 3D person to do some work and send to Shapeways!:-D

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


GN box car (was Re: Flat Car Load Securement)

Tim O'Connor
 


This is Gene Deimling's P:48 Chooch model of these GN 31000-31499 cars.

Thanks, Jack, for sharing those remarkable photos!

Tim O'


Hi Bill,

Not yet. It's been making its way up the pile though. When it happens, it'll appear on the blog (which was updated today with another of the fine groups of images from Jack Burgess - blog link below).

Cheers,
Ted Culotta


  Blog: http://prototopics.blogspot.com

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Bill Welch
 

Two Things:

I am really glad I ask my question because I have learned a lot and maybe someone (no pressure) will be motivated to develop a presentation on "Steam Era Construction Equipment as Flat Car Loads" for one of the now several RPM events.

While writing this I remembered a post on the Speedwitch Blog about another type of construction equipment: http://prototopics.blogspot.com/search/label/Euclid

Thanks for all of the informative posts on this topic.

Bill Welch


Re: other loads was D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Douglas Harding
 

Here are some AAR diagrams and instructions for loading/securing crawler tractors, from 1944 and 1952. As has been stated it is all blocking, very little tie downs.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 3:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] other loads was D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

 

Nice photos!

 

The dozers shown are D7 types with LeTourneau blades. They had an odd (for Caterpillar) rounded hood that tapered and curved towards the back. No other Cat had such a hood. They are about the same size as a D8, but were lighter and less powerful. Both were used extensively in WWII.

 

I do agree that the LeTourneau scraper shown would be an excellent item for some manufacturer to model (they are available in 1/48 scale). These seem to have been the most successful of many scraper types of the period. They are mechanically complicated and a challenge to model well. All “actions” were activated by cables driven by winches on the tractor. They came in several sizes. The basic scraper “bowl” could be pulled by either a crawler tractor or an integral 2-wheeled tractor (the “Super-C Tournapull”).

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

On Sep 14, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

 

Bill, Dennis, Dan, Folks,

 

Lots of interesting photos out there. I agree with Dennis that there usually isn’t a lot of cable/chain for example for WWII era loads, but there usually is some. With respect to dozers, here is a photo from the Farmall factory of artillery tractors  and cranes loaded on last (note that to the right, they are in motion being loaded!)

 

Another attached photo (Delano, I think) circa 1944 show new dozers with attached blade assemblies.  Cat D6 or D7 I’m guessing?

 

What I would love to see is a LeTourneau towed scraper model in HO. Similar to the one in the attached photo from the Signal Corps Archive.

 

Regards

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

 



On Sep 14, 2018, at 12:49 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

 

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 09:51 AM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:

Does anyone have any photos or diagrams of the blockage and cable restraints for a bll dozer load?

My goole-fu is lacking today, but there are some interesting images HERE

From spending all lunch browsing the web, all I can say is don't confuse modern practice with what was required in our era. Photos of modern loads show little or no blocking, but lots of cable tie downs. Steam era practice was lots of custom fitted blocking and few if any tie downs. I recall the dozer that fell off the flatcar in Downers Grove, causing a spectacular wreck on the Q three track mainline, fell because someone forgot to nail the blocking in place. Nothing was said in the ICC report about tie downs.

Dennis Storzek

<WW2 flatcar loads - Farmall.jpg><bulldozers on flat.jpg><LeTourneau.jpg>

 


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
It should be noted that early tractors were not so often used as bulldozers. They mostly pulled graders, elevating graders, scrapers, rollers, rippers, and wagons. The utility of the dozer blade was not so obvious at first. As the front mounted blade became the norm for much earthmoving, the tractors were modified to match and the front mounted winches became common.
I agree, the blade was of little utility for moving earth; after the bulldozer knocked down the trees, it was time to bring in the scrapers. After the general adoption of hydraulics, the excavator bucket changed all that.
 
 
Nowadays one rarely sees a “naked” crawler tractor … they are still occasionally used to pull scrapers as they have more “pull” than a wheeled tractor, but they’re too slow for most current practice. Today crawlers are mostly seen as bulldozers, rippers, and scraper-pushers. Lately there are a bunch of big 4-crawler "rubber-band” tracked machines making inroads since they are midway in performance (“pull” vs. speed) between metal-tracked machines and weeled tractors.
 
 
But the blade was still useful for the machines that PUSH the scraper, so as time went on, bladeless machines became less and less common, at least in my experience.

Dennis Storzek
 
 


Re: Flat Car Load Securement

Ted Culotta
 

Hi Bill,

Not yet. It's been making its way up the pile though. When it happens, it'll appear on the blog (which was updated today with another of the fine groups of images from Jack Burgess - blog link below).

Cheers,
Ted

Ted Culotta
Speedwitch Media
P.O. Box 392, Guilford, CT 06437


Re: three character shots of a NYC gon

Dave Parker
 

Tim:

I don't doubt it.  I'm afraid I know very little about foundry stamps.

I'm guessing that maybe ASF subcontracted the foundry work to S-G here?  After all, there were other parts that comprised the truck as a whole.

BTW, at the time this truck was built (probably mid-teens), I think Symington and Gould (Coupler) were still separate companies.  Or, that's what what my 1916 CBC suggests.  The history of these two outfits is a bit murky to me.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: other loads was D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Nice photos!

The dozers shown are D7 types with LeTourneau blades. They had an odd (for Caterpillar) rounded hood that tapered and curved towards the back. No other Cat had such a hood. They are about the same size as a D8, but were lighter and less powerful. Both were used extensively in WWII.

I do agree that the LeTourneau scraper shown would be an excellent item for some manufacturer to model (they are available in 1/48 scale). These seem to have been the most successful of many scraper types of the period. They are mechanically complicated and a challenge to model well. All “actions” were activated by cables driven by winches on the tractor. They came in several sizes. The basic scraper “bowl” could be pulled by either a crawler tractor or an integral 2-wheeled tractor (the “Super-C Tournapull”).

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 14, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Bill, Dennis, Dan, Folks,

Lots of interesting photos out there. I agree with Dennis that there usually isn’t a lot of cable/chain for example for WWII era loads, but there usually is some. With respect to dozers, here is a photo from the Farmall factory of artillery tractors  and cranes loaded on last (note that to the right, they are in motion being loaded!)

Another attached photo (Delano, I think) circa 1944 show new dozers with attached blade assemblies.  Cat D6 or D7 I’m guessing?

What I would love to see is a LeTourneau towed scraper model in HO. Similar to the one in the attached photo from the Signal Corps Archive.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Sep 14, 2018, at 12:49 PM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 09:51 AM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:
Does anyone have any photos or diagrams of the blockage and cable restraints for a bll dozer load?
My goole-fu is lacking today, but there are some interesting images HERE

From spending all lunch browsing the web, all I can say is don't confuse modern practice with what was required in our era. Photos of modern loads show little or no blocking, but lots of cable tie downs. Steam era practice was lots of custom fitted blocking and few if any tie downs. I recall the dozer that fell off the flatcar in Downers Grove, causing a spectacular wreck on the Q three track mainline, fell because someone forgot to nail the blocking in place. Nothing was said in the ICC report about tie downs.

Dennis Storzek
<WW2 flatcar loads - Farmall.jpg><bulldozers on flat.jpg><LeTourneau.jpg>


Re: D8 Bulldozer as a Flat Car Load

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Future Fantasy!

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:46 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Dan, 

Don’t you mean “some time, at least 10 years in the future, they will start to be painted a more subdued….” After all, this list ends at 1960 ;)

As for me, I paint nearly every load I load a nice olive drab. That includes Caterpillars. Gotta love modeling 1944!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Sep 14, 2018, at 2:38 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Early Best tractors were painted gray.  Holt tractors were mostly gray or brown.  After Holt and Best merged to form Caterpillar, their early tractors remained gray.

In the 1930’s they turned yellow. This was a BRIGHT yellow called “Caterpillar Yellow” or “Highway Yellow” …  it was essentially "chrome” yellow. After sometime in the late 1970’s they were, and remain, painted a more subdued “Mustard Yellow” color with a brown tint. UP Armor Yellow is a not bad substitute for the later color, maybe with a touch of brown added.

International tractors (IHC) were painted bright red, and later, yellow. Euclid tractors were an odd Chartruse green. Allis-Chalmers were bright orange.

HOWEVER, most of these tractors could/would be painted in whatever color the buyer wanted, so exceptions can be found.

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:00 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:





Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-Probably not much help today but the paint mix suggested be Evergreen Hill was 8 drops of Floquil refer yellow and two drops of Floquil roof brown.  Some of us still have a stash

Bill Pardie
<snip>


Re: three character shots of a NYC gon

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

I'm certain that "S" inside a hexagon is a foundry stamp. From your information I
conclude that ASF holds the patent.

From my limited info, Symington-Gould is the only foundry I could find that uses an
"S" inside a hexagon.

Tim

I'm not sure about the Symington-Gould foundry stamp, but it is ASF (American Steel Foundries) that is stamped on the upper left truss-member. In the center is stamped Vulcan, which was an ASF trade-name. There is a patent date of 10-6-96 on the left diagonal. This date routinely appears on ASF Andrews and Vulcan trucks of the teens and twenties, and reflects the original patent awarded to one J S Hardie, the rights to which were later acquired by ASF. The sideframe in Hardie's patent bore only a passing resemblance to an Andrews or a Vulcan; it was the removable journal box bolted into the pedestal jaw that was patented.

BTW, based on the CBCs, the "Andrews" and "Vulcan" trade names seem to have come into play in about 1909 and 1916 respectively.

Also note that, on this truck, the top chord appears to be a U-channel, while the rest of the truss is T-shaped. I assume this was a short-lived transition on the way to the full U-channel version. I don't think this "mixed truss" arrangement was in any way common, but I have seen a couple of other examples. There is a Gould-manufactured "Vulcan" sideframe advertised in the 1909 CBC that clearly has both U- and L-section elements.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

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