Date   

Re: 1942 Airplane load in boxcar

Bruce Smith
 

​Andy,


Great photos!  As I posted back in 2008 ;) the car is an L&N car.  There is video of this operation as well as stills.  Note too the added propellor in some photos to disguise that this is a jet.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Laurent via Groups.Io <andy.laurent@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 3:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] 1942 Airplane load in boxcar
 
Gents,
Attached picture was posted by Edwards Air Force Base on their Instagram account today. It shows the prototype XP-59 jet being unloaded from an auto boxcar in September 1942. 

Andy
Iowa


Re: 1942 Airplane load in boxcar

 

I believe the XP-59 was built by Bell Aircraft in Buffalo NY.  More than likely the airplane left Buffalo on the NYC which switched the Bell plant on Elmwood Avenue.  NYC had boxcars with end doors.  


Re: ARA Diagrams

Charlie Vlk
 

Ralph-
I use CorelDraw for my artwork. Most of the output is converted to Illustrator as the factories in China seem to prefer it. Corel does a seamless job of inputting and exporting AI and pdf files and I much prefer the look and feel of the Corel product over AI. I have used Fontastic to make actual typeable font sets but usually don't have to develop an entire set of alpha characters. Many times a close font can be tortured to match photographs...the ampersand is often unique and is the worst to fix/make.
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


Re: ARA Diagrams

Charlie Vlk
 

Dave-

The BRHS Fall Meet is later this week at Quincy, Illinois and I will pose the question there (again).   Maybe somebody has come across something in the BRHS Archives.  There must be CB&Q drawings covering the alpha and numeric characters.  

Thanks,
Charlie Vlk

 


Re: NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries

Tim O'Connor
 


 > I have not seen any photos of the NYRX cars, but in 1958 I'm assuming they were
 > mechanical refrigerators without hatches
 > Peter Ness


   Seth Lakin replied -
     NYRB 2500-2599 are the same cars as the NYRX 2500-2599 cars. Both the ERDX 11000-11049
     and NYRB 2500-2599 were converted from NYC lot 743-B boxcars. Under MDT-NRL specification 244.
     These were converted by DSI under construction lot 936 (different from NYC Lot 936).

-----------------

If Seth is correct that NYRX 2528 was from lot 743-B (DSI 1945) then they must have replaced
the ENDS too, because this car (photo attached) has 5-5 Dreadnaught ends, while the 743-B box cars
all had postwar dreadnaught ends with a 4/4 rib pattern. I've always assumed these NYRX "Early
Bird" box cars were rebuilt from 1940 AAR design box cars - 734-B or 735-B.

These NYRX 2500-2599 cars were the only other NYC freight cars to receive the Early Bird logo.
Champ produced decal sets for these cars (HR-57 and later SHS-257) but Greg Komar produced a much
improved set, KOMAR #83.

Tim O'Connor

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries

Seth Lakin
 

Peter, the NYRB 2500-2599 are the same cars as the NYRX 2500-2599 cars. If you look closely at this photos of the NYRX cars, you can see the the B was repainted or stickered as a X. 

Both the ERDX 11000-11049 and NYRB 2500-2599 were converted from NYC lot 743-B boxcars. Under MDT-NRL specification 244. These were converted by DSI under construction lot 936 (different from NYC Lot 936). 

The ERDX cars were for Eastern States Farmers while the NYRB cars were for NYC general service.

All were insulated cars, no ice bunkers, no mechanical refrigeration. 

There is a small almost inspection sliding door on the B end between ribs just to the right of the centerline between the brake step and brake wheel. I don’t know if this qualifies for ventilation or not, as it’s not on the A end of the car. 

There are drawings of these cars in the files of the NYCSHS. I don’t have them saved to my ERDX-NYRB file. I will have to go look for them. 

Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
NYCSHS Modelers Committee 


Re: Zinc Pest was Re: Times have changed!

Tony Thompson
 

Craig Zeni wrote:

Back in my college days when I was studying metallurgy, one of my professors who happened to be a tinplate train collector and restorer told me his theory was that poison Zamac aka zinc pest isn't an electrolytic problem or a corrosion problem or a temperature problem. It's an atomic problem, a metallurgical problem with impurities - typically lead, antimony and bismuth.
Well, that theory takes a hit from the fact that humidity greatly accelerates zinc pest. It is always cited in metallurgical sources as a corrosion problem, and is certainly due to the impurities, primarily lead. Since 1960, when this problem became well understood, zinc and zamac castings are usually okay. Earlier ones, some fail, some don't. I have a few old pairs of trucks from the 1950s, and in two of the pairs, one has crumbled, the other looks fine (and yes, now I have one good pair out of the two).

Tony Thompson
Retired metallurgist , corrosion scientist, and professor of materials science
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: 1942 Airplane load in boxcar

Jim Ogden
 

Gotta love the fake propeller to confuse the enemy. It does look like a Bell p-39!

Jim Ogden
Fort Worth, Texas


Zinc Pest was Re: Times have changed!

Craig Zeni
 

On Sep 16, 2018, at 5:15 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6b. Re: Times have changed!
From: Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@tir.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 17:15:19 EDT

The one you show are in exceptional condition. From my experience, perhaps 75% of of such old castings have turned to dust due to “Metal Rot” (intercrystaline corrosion). It’s due to impurities in the diecast metal, and varied from “pot to pot” in the casting process, even from the same manufacturer.

Such rot is like a bad cancer, there’s really no cure. The corrosion occurs between the metal crystals, forcing them apart. The part will first swell, distort, warp, and become covered in white powder … eventually the powder is all that’s left. If the part is not yet in awful shape you can try to get a mold off it, and thus “save” in for future reproduction.

Dan Mitchell
==========
Dan,

Back in my college days when I was studying metallurgy, one of my professors who happened to be a tinplate train collector and restorer told me his theory was that poison Zamac aka zinc pest isn't an electrolytic problem or a corrosion problem or a temperature problem. It's an atomic problem, a metallurgical problem with impurities - typically lead, antimony and bismuth. Zamac, like almost all metal, has a 'grain' structure. When liquid metal solidifies, the metal doesn't start freezing uniformly - it begins at nucleation points in many places more or less at the same time. A cubic atomic structure of atoms grows out of each of those nucleation points forming a grain. As the grains continue to grow they bump into each other, forming grain boundaries. When the contaminated Zamac alloy is poured and solidifies, the contaminant atoms are trapped inside the grains...but the contaminants don't like being inside the grains. Through a process known as diffusion the impurity atoms move thru the grain structure heading for the boundaries. As the impurities gather at the boundaries they push the grains apart...which is what you see with the 'poisoned Zamac' that we see in old models that are swelling and crumbling. The long time it takes for the failure to happen is consistent with diffusion theory as well. Is my professor right? Beats me...

Trying to save those parts with zinc pest will effectively be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...how long it takes your particular ship to sink is the great unknown but it will eventually sink.

Craig Zeni
Cary NC


Re: ARA Diagrams

Dave Parker
 

Charlie:

Having spend a fair bit of time rooting around in MCB and ARA publications from the teens and twenties, I think you may be looking for something that doesn't exist, i.e, a standardized full alphabet.

The MCB' attempt at standardization dates to 1906, when they adopted a Recommended Practice involving a Roman (serif) typeface, and only certain character heights (1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 9 inches).  Sometime in the teens (I did not go back and dig up exactly when), this practice was advanced to an MBC Standard.

To my knowledge, the prescribed practice was documented in a simple diagram, initially Drawing M, then Drawing 26B. the latter being available as part of the 1918 Drawings of the Standards and Recommended Practices (available from Google books).   Here is a screen grab of it:



As you can see it only contains three letters, and three numerals, in various sizes, presumably to be used by the individual roads as a general guideline when cutting their own stencils. As we know, there was considerable variation in these such that, to a first approximations, no two road's lettering were exactly the same.

This same diagram was reproduced in a variety of places, including many (if not all) of the CBCs.  If the ARA ever expanded it to a full sheet with 26 letters and 10 numerals, I am not aware of it.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: 1942 Airplane load in boxcar

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Nice find! Our first jet fighter, though it never went into production. The truck-tractor looks like a White 4-ton COE with an open cab (canvas top).

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 16, 2018, at 4:58 PM, Andy Laurent via Groups.Io <andy.laurent@...> wrote:

Gents,
Attached picture was posted by Edwards Air Force Base on their Instagram account today. It shows the prototype XP-59 jet being unloaded from an auto boxcar in September 1942. 

Andy
Iowa <edwardsairforcebase_20180916155403.png>


Re: Times have changed!

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

The one you show are in exceptional condition. From my experience, perhaps 75% of of such old castings have turned to dust due to “Metal Rot” (intercrystaline corrosion). It’s due to impurities in the diecast metal, and varied from “pot to pot” in the casting process, even from the same manufacturer.

Such rot is like a bad cancer, there’s really no cure. The corrosion occurs between the metal crystals, forcing them apart. The part will first swell, distort, warp, and become covered in white powder … eventually the powder is all that’s left. If the part is not yet in awful shape you can try to get a mold off it, and thus “save” in for future reproduction.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 16, 2018, at 3:56 PM, StephenK <thekays100@...> wrote:

I think we all realize how lucky we are theses days in terms of the quality of the models that are available to us.   

Today I was looking for a car that I had stored somewhere and came upon a box of old stuff that I picked up at an estate sale years ago.   There were a pair of Varney four-wheel roller bearing passenger trucks and a pair of Megow six-wheel passenger trucks, both fairly crude but usable even now.   There was an unopened packet containing a pair of Mantua couplers  (for 25 cents).   And there was a glassine envelope containing the parts to build a pair of freight trucks.   Check out the photo.   Note that the wheels on the left have larger holes.   Those are to fit over the insulating bushings (the little black thingies).   And those sideframes!  

We should  remember this when we are complaining about some item not being 100% accurate, right?

Steve Kay <IMG_2217.JPG>


Re: caterpillar tread loads

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

I don’t know of any decent ones in HO scale, but they are available in 1/48, several types.

Unfortunately they’re not a simple shape, which is what’s wrong with about 75% of the ones offered *ON* tractor models. The common “rubber band” track just doesn’t cut it.

A crawler tractor’s track is essentially a huge roller-chain (think bicycle chain) with the track plates bolted to the outside of it. There’s a LOT “inside” the track beneath the plates. It’s much heavier and stronger than a comparable sized tank track. 

Tank tracks have to be made light so the vehicle can move fast. Typical ones consist of a series of plates hinged together at their edges. They bend AT the hinges, more-or-less at the surface of the track. A crawler tractor track bends at the roller chain joints, well below (inside) the track. The result is that the joints of the crawler track OPEN as the track bends. It’s very noticeable once you know what to look for. The track plates are oversized and overlap one another at the joints (to keep rocks and such getting stuck between the open plates).

The after-market links (soft metal) available in 1/48 scale allow modelers to replace the lousy rubber-band tracks common on otherwise acceptable models. I’ve done several such conversions myself. Unfortunately few crawler tractor modelers work in HO scale, so such parts are not available. The crawler tractor modelers mostly work in 1/48, 1/24, and 1/16 scales.

Anyway. your best bet in HO would be to carefully make a few links, then make a mold and cast more, until you had a decent length of track. A fussy, but do-able job. Such tracks are often shipped rolled into a big coil … a rather heavy coil!

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Sep 16, 2018, at 3:32 PM, Dave Yingst via Groups.Io <yingstco@...> wrote:

All this discussion of tracklayer tractor loads got me to thinking about modeling a load of treads on a flat car or gondola. Are there suitable model parts available? Thanks.
Dave Yingst
Corning,CA


1942 Airplane load in boxcar

Andy Laurent
 

Gents,
Attached picture was posted by Edwards Air Force Base on their Instagram account today. It shows the prototype XP-59 jet being unloaded from an auto boxcar in September 1942. 

Andy
Iowa


Times have changed!

StephenK
 

I think we all realize how lucky we are theses days in terms of the quality of the models that are available to us.   

Today I was looking for a car that I had stored somewhere and came upon a box of old stuff that I picked up at an estate sale years ago.   There were a pair of Varney four-wheel roller bearing passenger trucks and a pair of Megow six-wheel passenger trucks, both fairly crude but usable even now.   There was an unopened packet containing a pair of Mantua couplers  (for 25 cents).   And there was a glassine envelope containing the parts to build a pair of freight trucks.   Check out the photo.   Note that the wheels on the left have larger holes.   Those are to fit over the insulating bushings (the little black thingies).   And those sideframes!  

We should  remember this when we are complaining about some item not being 100% accurate, right?

Steve Kay


caterpillar tread loads

Dave Yingst
 

All this discussion of tracklayer tractor loads got me to thinking about modeling a load of treads on a flat car or gondola. Are there suitable model parts available? Thanks.
Dave Yingst
Corning,CA


Re: ARA Diagrams

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Charlie,

What software are you using to prepare your artwork?

Thanks,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Vlk
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ARA Diagrams

All
I regularly use photos to prepare L&P artwork and will do so for CB&Q as there are so many variations between different cars.
I am just trying to understand the source for the lettering since everything was referenced so thoroughly “back in the day”.
It seems curious that no Q drawings or numbers have been found for lettering.....just the ARA reference.
Charlie Vlk


NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries

Peter Ness
 

This isn’t terribly important, but it is a mystery to me, anyway;

 

While gathering information on ERDX 10000-10099 and ERDX 110000-11049 (or 11000-11099 depending where you look…) cars between the Canadian Southern website (wonderful site!) and my January 1959 ORER, I stumbled across NYRB 2500-2599 in the ORER that is not listed on the CS website.

 

Curiously (to me) there was also a listing of NYRX 2500-2599 both in the ORER and on the website. Now, the mystery (to me) is because both NYRX 2500-2599 and NYRB 2500-2599 have the same dimensions as the ERDX 11000-11099 cars; in the ORER the ERDX and NYRB cars are both listed as Ventilated, while the NYRX cars are listed as Refrigerated.

 

So, one mystery (to me) is if the NYRB cars were ever built?

Another mystery; if there were only 50 ERDX 110000-11099 cars rebuilt from Lot 734-B box cars in 1958, and 50 NYRX 2500-2599 cars were also built from  Lot 734-B box cars, from what were the NYRB cars built (since they have the same dimensions)?

 

A couple of questions: Does anyone know what trucks were applied to the ERDX 10000-10099 cars built in 1953 and the ERDX 11000-11049 cars built in 1958?

How were cars without roof hatches ventilated? I have not seen any photos of the NYRX cars, but in 1958 I’m assuming they were mechanical refrigerators without hatches….

 

For information, all of this was driven because I have a couple of ERDX cars made by 5th Avenue Shops (IIRC) sometime in the last millennium.  I sort of put these cars aside a while back because someone told me; “Yes, they are nice cars but the prototypes were 50’ cars”…and I never checked until now.  So there may be problems with roof, ends, sides, brake gear and trucks, but knowing the length is close to correct is a start down the path of redemption for the cars.

 

Thanks for any and all help on the NYRX and NYRB questions, and truck info for the ERDX cars.

 

Peter Ness


Re: ARA Diagrams

Charlie Vlk
 

All
I regularly use photos to prepare L&P artwork and will do so for CB&Q as there are so many variations between different cars.
I am just trying to understand the source for the lettering since everything was referenced so thoroughly “back in the day”.
It seems curious that no Q drawings or numbers have been found for lettering.....just the ARA reference.
Charlie Vlk


Re: Captured gondola? (correction)

Ed Hawkins
 


On Sep 15, 2018, at 10:08 PM, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

ACF Lot 5114 supplied B&O six hundred car sets of underframes & sides headed in the gondola cars to B&O’s DuBois, Pa. car shops for final assembly becoming B&O 400000-470599, class M-66. At 3 car sets of sides & 6 underframes per gondola load, 300 gondola loads were required to ship the entire order. It would be interesting to know the identities of all 300 cars used to move the car sets from Berwick to DuBois.

At roughly the same time, B&O received 400 car sets for 10’ IH 40’-6” PS-1 box cars that the railroad also assembled at DuBois becoming B&O 400600-400999, class M-67. These “kits” were supplied to B&O by Pullman-Standard, however, available Pullman data does not denote a lot number or which plant the sides & underframes were built (most likely either Butler, Pa. or Michigan City, Ind.). 

David & others interested,
Last night my eyes must have been out of focus as I specified the car number series of the cars built by B&O’s DuBois car shops, which I’m now correcting.

ACF kits: 470000-470599, M-66
P-S kits: 470600-470999, M-67

Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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