Date   
Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

  Eric, 
             I believe the 4900 class is 1929 build by PC&F IIRC.      Too late for your modeling.   Sorry.                                       Jim 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

 

Dave Nelson asked about the roof. Is it well documented?  Yes the 6000 series car is very well documented, with numerous paper plans. However I do not have these all scanned.  And like much research, come from sources claiming a copyright. (Dubious copyright claim or not, I uniformly honor those claims as I do like researching at the sites. And in my experience with some, yes they can and do track use.)  

 

       Of a factory fresh interior shot of the 6000 series cars. None was in the builder’s photo folio. I stated that I know I have a photo around somewhere however it is not at my finger-tips at the moment.

 

The car number of the interior photo: Please re-read my prior post, forth sentence from the end in the post. I was quite clear on what car number the interior photo was and gave it as 4982. On outside dimensions, the cars are similar in dimensions, with the 6000-30000 series cars having fixed ends.

 

Yes the 4982 does have an end door as you can see. Could explain the photo in the folio.

 

  The roof design plans are largely the same design regardless of box car series. I say largely, however not identical.  

 

 NP stock cars with radial roofs are different.
   This series of NP stock cars 80000 – 80049 were leased from Mather Stock Car Co, and do have the circular roof, however different interior bracing.
                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                          James Dick    Roseville, MN 

 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

Hmmm. Yes, you are correct for that image. I think Jim Dick introduced this to the conversation but may not have realized it was not the same as the car in the links with the damaged Cleveland tractors. Were the 6000 series upgraded and renumbered in later years?

 

BTW, there are no 4000 series cars in the NP 1926 ORER listings.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 3:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

maybe we’re talking about two different cars

 

here’s the one I am referring to

 

norm

 

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Tim O'Connor
 


If the load hung over the end of the car, there probably was an "idler" car, and
that car's hand brake could be used to anchor the loaded car.

More typical would be a load that needed access from the end of the car, so the brake
staff would be only be lowered while the car was being loaded and/or unloaded.

Tim



The implication here is that ya can't use the brake wheel in a lowered position.  Is that true?  I don't see how it could be, because what d'ya do if you need to park a flat with a long load?
Edward Sutorik

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Tim O'Connor
 

and just to muddy the waters a bit... :-)

Hey, it's work to lower the brake staff. The brakes were usually in the up position, unless there was some reason (such as interference with the load). Since the hand brake was otherwise required to be operative for switching and spotting the car, I suspect a lowered hand brake was a defect that the car men were required to remedy when they inspected the train... Anyone know? At any rate, most photos of flatcars in trains show them in the up position.

Dennis Storzek
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: Stupid hand brake question

spsalso
 

So, kind of paraphrasing what's been said:

If a brake wheel was lowered, it was raised the first time someone needed to use it.  And it stayed that way until there was a reason to lower it.

The implication here is that ya can't use the brake wheel in a lowered position.  Is that true?  I don't see how it could be, because what d'ya do if you need to park a flat with a long load?


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

Hey, it's work to lower the brake staff. The brakes were usually in the up position, unless there was some reason (such as interference with the load).  Since the hand brake was otherwise required to be operative for switching and spotting the car, I suspect a lowered hand brake was a defect that the car men were required to remedy when they inspected the train... Anyone know? At any rate, most photos of flatcars in trains show them in the up position.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

maybe we’re talking about two different cars

here’s the one I am referring to

norm


On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

Norm,
 
Can you provide a link for the image you reference? I had thought the discussion centered on this image of NP 6706.
 
 
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 2:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035
 
norm buckhart
 
On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.
 
The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle
 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

Norm,

 

Can you provide a link for the image you reference? I had thought the discussion centered on this image of NP 6706.

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-18/X5242.jpg

 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 2:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035

 

norm buckhart

 

On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:



As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.

 

The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle

 

Stupid hand brake question

Peter Ness
 

I know I should know the answer to this, but I don't.  I am sure the collective group will devise an appropriate punishment for my utter lack of knowledge.

Question: for flat cars equipped with a drop staff hand brakes, would the staff be in the lowered position while the car is in a train? I am asking because I don't see that once a car is in a consist that anyone is going to have to set the hand brake and I am not aware of any requirement for correct function of the brake while in consist, that the hand brake must be in the raised position.

OK - punishment can be assigned, but please provide an answer.

Thanks,
Peter Ness 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035

norm buckhart

On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.
 
The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.

 

The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 09:31 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
or is that well documented elsewhere?
Find a series built by Pullman, as several of the Soo series were, order up drawings from the Pullman Library at IRM, and, as an added bonus, you'll have accurate drawings of the rest of the car.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dave Nelson
 

Regarding the roof itself, it looks like those are 2x4’s on either side of the centerline and a 2x6 on the centerline.  If that is correct then it might be possible to calculate the curvature of the roof… or is that well documented elsewhere?

 

Dave Nelson

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Kemal Mumcu
 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle

Eastern PA 2 Rail O Scale Train Show and Swap Meet October 13th, Strasburg PA

Rich Yoder
 

Hey guys it’s that time of year!

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Sincerely,

Rich Yoder

John Dunn

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Alex Huff
 

In the series of photos, an overexposed image shows the interior end of the car and the roof.  Some roof supports (purlins) show damage from having been struck from below.

My speculation is that due to a severe overspeed coupling, the damaged tractor broke loose, tipped up crushing its cab against the end wall and the radiator hit the roof.  Perhaps the tractor in front of the damaged one rolled under the wrecked one, taking out the drive components which are now sitting on the loading dock, along with blocking which matches other interior photos.  All speculation of course.

Alex Huff, once upon a time a switchman who saw some seriously overspeed couplings.

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

Cleveland Tractor had a connection to the White Motor Company.
https://case.edu/ech/articles/c/cletrac-inc


From the text details below the image, this is a 1927 photo. It's interesting to see a Northern Pacific automobile car loaded in Cleveland, Ohio, and routed east. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN



On October 2, 2018 at 9:59 PM James SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

Note also the steering wheel broken on the crawler in the door, and I bet the seat is bent down as well. Looking as X5241 it appears that a the bent radiator crawler also had a covered body which was destroyed and that crawler is not straight in the car.  I wonder if the clearly written twice “no brake.” Has anything to do with it.

 

On the dock is some equipment that resembles the bell housing from a transmission. One possibility is that all three of the tractors in this car are damaged and are being  sent to a place for repair. The one in the middle has The Cleveland Tractor Company written on it. According to the WWW they produced small and medium size farm crawler tractors from 1918 – 1944.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 



Re: Coupler lift bars.

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Indeed, though I did NOT mean that they were unsuitable for use. It’s rather a toss up ... the Tangent bars resist bending, but will snap off if overstressed, and the DA bars just bend. The DA bars can usually be straightened. Both are fine unless abused.

I don’t know what metal is used by either manufacturer. Both are non-magnetic. DA’s are shiny silver-colored (stainless steel?), while Tangent’s are a “brassy” color (possibly phosphor-bronze). 

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Oct 2, 2018, at 9:16 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Well, yeah, that’s a bit TOO stiff.
 
Schuyler
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 8:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.
 
Unfortunately, instead of bending they just snap off. Overly hard. Still, a nice product in general service.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
On Oct 1, 2018, at 10:14 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
 
I think the answer is in the description:  They don’t bend (or cut) easily.  IOW, casual handling won’t result in a bent bar.
 
Schuyler
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2018 7:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Coupler lift bars.
 
On 10/1/2018 4:11 PM, Gary McMills wrote:
Tangent parts are hard steel and don't bend or cut easily.
    I'm curious why they don't make them out of brass (cost)?
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
 


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

I've reviewed many of these historic Lackawanna images and they seem to fall into a few categories. 

First, many images document an accident. The images of the NP boxcar with the Cleveland tractors are typical. Many seem to document a worker injury or a fatality. I can't tell you how many I've seen that illustrate a crossing and the crunched remnants of an auto.

Second, many images document new facilities, especially passenger stations.

This last point took awhile to figure out. There are quite a few images of homes and pastoral scenes. I think these document property the Lackawanna needed in order to upgrade their right-of-way.

At any rate, we are fortunate that this extensive collection survived. I am not familiar with a similar railroad company photo archive. Barriger's images come close but they lack the subject focus of the Lackawanna images. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On October 2, 2018 at 8:19 PM Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Many of them are, Bob, but some are simply shots of the railroad at work.

 

I’m not convinced that the equipment in the car is/was new.  The crawler looks a bit “experienced” to me, and I don’t see how the radiator could have been bent back like that from the crawler.

 

Schuyler