Date   
Re: Stupid hand brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 02:48 PM, Peter Ness wrote:
it rested on the end of the deck of the car in front – so the hand brake wheel was lowered for clearance.
And in such location was inoperative. The ARA/AAR rules required operative hand brakes on all cars, so this was a defect that needed to be remedied before the train left the yard. Likewise with the style where the staff slid straight down so the wheel was flat on the deck, or in a notch provided for it; in this position it lacked the required 4" hand clearance, so again was a defective hand brake.

While they might not occur often, there are situations when multiple hand brakes are needed on the road; to hold the train in the event of switching to set out a car, possibly a bad order car; or in the event of a break-in-two. They were on the cars for more than just a parking brake.

Tim's example looks like a special purpose logging flat.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Stupid hand brake question

David Soderblom
 

The photo of a rotated brake wheel is, I would say, for a very non-typical car because it has a wood end sill. I’m guessing a narrow gauge car, but I abso-posilutely guarantee that cars in the time period of this group did NOT have wood end sills. The relative dimensions also suggest narrow gauge.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA
drs@...

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Peter Ness
 

Thanks all.

 

OK – so my understanding is correct in so far as when on hand brake wheel is lowered it is non-operational.  

 

Tim – the side-drop wheel doesn’t muddy the water too much, but it doesn’t count J

 

Other comments that when raised for use it stay raised, on idler flats could be used to anchor the over dimension load when parked..

 

Dennis made the interesting observation;

The brakes were usually in the up position, unless there was some reason (such as interference with the load).  

 

This is exactly what prompted my  question; The New Haven had a couple series of 40’ TOFC flat cars. I’m using the Chad Boas kit to build one series. These cars had full aprons at one end, the drop staff hand brake wheel at the other. When the apron was dropped for circus style loading, it rested on the end of the deck of the car in front – so the hand brake wheel was lowered for clearance.

 

I am guessing the empty cars were moved to the end of the loading ramp,  hand brakes set, hand brake wheel lowered, the aprons dropped, cars loaded, aprons raised and hand brake wheel raised and brakes released when ready to move into consist.

That’s my guess.

 

Not always, but many times the cars were in a solid block, and they were the only car type at a loading ramp, so the thought had crossed my mind; maybe only the hand brake on the last car had to be raised and the brake on that car set for loading or unloading.  But I am guessing either this was not allowed by rule or one set brake on one flat car would not be sufficient to withstand the loading and unloading forces for safety.

 

The reason I ask the question: all my photos are of individual cars setting on track somewhere, no photos of any in a train that is not in a yard.  So all photos of cars with hand brakes in raised position.

 

Regards,

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2018 5:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Stupid hand brake question

 


If the load hung over the end of the car, there probably was an "idler" car, and
that car's hand brake could be used to anchor the loaded car.

More typical would be a load that needed access from the end of the car, so the brake
staff would be only be lowered while the car was being loaded and/or unloaded.

Tim




The implication here is that ya can't use the brake wheel in a lowered position.  Is that true?  I don't see how it could be, because what d'ya do if you need to park a flat with a long load?
Edward Sutorik


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

I believe it to be a Chicago-Climax Radial roof.
norm buckhart

On Oct 4, 2018, at 2:34 PM, np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:

 

Dave Nelson asked about the roof. Is it well documented?  Yes the 6000 series car is very well documented, with numerous paper plans. However I do not have these all scanned.  And like much research, come from sources claiming a copyright. (Dubious copyright claim or not, I uniformly honor those claims as I do like researching at the sites. And in my experience with some, yes they can and do track use.)  

 

       Of a factory fresh interior shot of the 6000 series cars. None was in the builder’s photo folio. I stated that I know I have a photo around somewhere however it is not at my finger-tips at the moment.

 

The car number of the interior photo: Please re-read my prior post, forth sentence from the end in the post. I was quite clear on what car number the interior photo was and gave it as 4982. On outside dimensions, the cars are similar in dimensions, with the 6000-30000 series cars having fixed ends.

 

Yes the 4982 does have an end door as you can see. Could explain the photo in the folio.

 

  The roof design plans are largely the same design regardless of box car series. I say largely, however not identical.  

 

 NP stock cars with radial roofs are different.
   This series of NP stock cars 80000 – 80049 were leased from Mather Stock Car Co, and do have the circular roof, however different interior bracing.
                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                          James Dick    Roseville, MN 

 
<6000 and 30000 cars001 _ Copy.jpg><XM A 4982 _ 3 _ Copy.jpg><XM A 4982 _ 2 _ Copy.jpg><NP 83260.JPG><NP 83260 Int.JPG>

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

ok - I was being too general - i guess up in 4800-4900 series

I think the number in the photo may be 4950


On Oct 4, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

Hmmm. Yes, you are correct for that image. I think Jim Dick introduced this to the conversation but may not have realized it was not the same as the car in the links with the damaged Cleveland tractors. Were the 6000 series upgraded and renumbered in later years?
 
BTW, there are no 4000 series cars in the NP 1926 ORER listings.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 3:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
maybe we’re talking about two different cars
 
here’s the one I am referring to
 
norm
 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

  Eric, 
             I believe the 4900 class is 1929 build by PC&F IIRC.      Too late for your modeling.   Sorry.                                       Jim 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

np328
 

 

Dave Nelson asked about the roof. Is it well documented?  Yes the 6000 series car is very well documented, with numerous paper plans. However I do not have these all scanned.  And like much research, come from sources claiming a copyright. (Dubious copyright claim or not, I uniformly honor those claims as I do like researching at the sites. And in my experience with some, yes they can and do track use.)  

 

       Of a factory fresh interior shot of the 6000 series cars. None was in the builder’s photo folio. I stated that I know I have a photo around somewhere however it is not at my finger-tips at the moment.

 

The car number of the interior photo: Please re-read my prior post, forth sentence from the end in the post. I was quite clear on what car number the interior photo was and gave it as 4982. On outside dimensions, the cars are similar in dimensions, with the 6000-30000 series cars having fixed ends.

 

Yes the 4982 does have an end door as you can see. Could explain the photo in the folio.

 

  The roof design plans are largely the same design regardless of box car series. I say largely, however not identical.  

 

 NP stock cars with radial roofs are different.
   This series of NP stock cars 80000 – 80049 were leased from Mather Stock Car Co, and do have the circular roof, however different interior bracing.
                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                          James Dick    Roseville, MN 

 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

Hmmm. Yes, you are correct for that image. I think Jim Dick introduced this to the conversation but may not have realized it was not the same as the car in the links with the damaged Cleveland tractors. Were the 6000 series upgraded and renumbered in later years?

 

BTW, there are no 4000 series cars in the NP 1926 ORER listings.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 3:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

maybe we’re talking about two different cars

 

here’s the one I am referring to

 

norm

 

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Tim O'Connor
 


If the load hung over the end of the car, there probably was an "idler" car, and
that car's hand brake could be used to anchor the loaded car.

More typical would be a load that needed access from the end of the car, so the brake
staff would be only be lowered while the car was being loaded and/or unloaded.

Tim



The implication here is that ya can't use the brake wheel in a lowered position.  Is that true?  I don't see how it could be, because what d'ya do if you need to park a flat with a long load?
Edward Sutorik

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Tim O'Connor
 

and just to muddy the waters a bit... :-)

Hey, it's work to lower the brake staff. The brakes were usually in the up position, unless there was some reason (such as interference with the load). Since the hand brake was otherwise required to be operative for switching and spotting the car, I suspect a lowered hand brake was a defect that the car men were required to remedy when they inspected the train... Anyone know? At any rate, most photos of flatcars in trains show them in the up position.

Dennis Storzek
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Re: Stupid hand brake question

spsalso
 

So, kind of paraphrasing what's been said:

If a brake wheel was lowered, it was raised the first time someone needed to use it.  And it stayed that way until there was a reason to lower it.

The implication here is that ya can't use the brake wheel in a lowered position.  Is that true?  I don't see how it could be, because what d'ya do if you need to park a flat with a long load?


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Stupid hand brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

Hey, it's work to lower the brake staff. The brakes were usually in the up position, unless there was some reason (such as interference with the load).  Since the hand brake was otherwise required to be operative for switching and spotting the car, I suspect a lowered hand brake was a defect that the car men were required to remedy when they inspected the train... Anyone know? At any rate, most photos of flatcars in trains show them in the up position.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

maybe we’re talking about two different cars

here’s the one I am referring to

norm


On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

Norm,
 
Can you provide a link for the image you reference? I had thought the discussion centered on this image of NP 6706.
 
 
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 2:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035
 
norm buckhart
 
On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.
 
The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle
 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

Norm,

 

Can you provide a link for the image you reference? I had thought the discussion centered on this image of NP 6706.

 

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-10-01-18/X5242.jpg

 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Norm Buckhart
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2018 2:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035

 

norm buckhart

 

On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:



As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.

 

The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle

 

Stupid hand brake question

Peter Ness
 

I know I should know the answer to this, but I don't.  I am sure the collective group will devise an appropriate punishment for my utter lack of knowledge.

Question: for flat cars equipped with a drop staff hand brakes, would the staff be in the lowered position while the car is in a train? I am asking because I don't see that once a car is in a consist that anyone is going to have to set the hand brake and I am not aware of any requirement for correct function of the brake while in consist, that the hand brake must be in the raised position.

OK - punishment can be assigned, but please provide an answer.

Thanks,
Peter Ness 

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Norm Buckhart
 

if you will see the number stenciled just inside the car and to the left of the top of the door you will note that the car is part of the 4000 series.  I believe I see 4035

norm buckhart

On Oct 4, 2018, at 12:17 PM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:

As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.
 
The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf OfKemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction
 
I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle


Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Eric Hansmann
 

As per data in the October 1926 ORER, there is little difference between the 5000 (125 cars listed) and 6000 (1000 cars) series Northern Pacific XA boxcars. All dimensions are the same. Neither has a note indicating end doors.

 

The 7000 series are noted as having end doors, but those are 40-foot cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kemal Mumcu via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 12:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Inside view of NP circular roof construction

 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 09:31 PM, Dave Nelson wrote:
or is that well documented elsewhere?
Find a series built by Pullman, as several of the Soo series were, order up drawings from the Pullman Library at IRM, and, as an added bonus, you'll have accurate drawings of the rest of the car.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Dave Nelson
 

Regarding the roof itself, it looks like those are 2x4’s on either side of the centerline and a 2x6 on the centerline.  If that is correct then it might be possible to calculate the curvature of the roof… or is that well documented elsewhere?

 

Dave Nelson

Re: Inside view of NP circular roof construction

Kemal Mumcu
 

I'm curious what serious differences there are between this car and the 5000 series model from Speedwitch. End doors on the 6000 series?

Colin Meikle