Date   

Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Ralph W. Brown
 

Garth, et al.,
 
That tube would not have been large enough to handle the 16” projectiles for the Missouri’s turrets.  Ammo hoists (not called elevators) for 5” mounts, to my knowledge at least, were not housed within armored tubes.  Enclosed 5” mounted were not armored either.
 
I’m still reasonably sure this tube was the lower section of the trunk below the Missouri’s “Ship Conning Station” (04-85-O-C) and the “Fire Control Station” (O5-85-O-C) immediately above it.  This tube is denoted on the previously mentioned Missouri longitudinal section drawing from the Missouri Memorial website as the “Conning Tower Tube” (S3-46-O-T).
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Garth Groff
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 5:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube
 
Friends,

Could this tube have contained an elevator or other lift from the magazines to the gun turrets?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 10/5/18 3:09 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
NO, the photo presented here does NOT match the tube shown on the gun flat. Not even close. The actual "conning tower” described here is much larger, three stories high, with 18” thick walls. Not mentioned here, but it is also oval in cross section. This main "conning tower”, by itself, would weigh several hundred tons.
 
Someone’s earlier suggestion that the tube shown on the gun flat was a connecting tube joining the lower part of the “conning tower” to the main armored citadel a few decks below makes sense.
 
The thing shown on the flat is only (at most) nine feet in diameter … with 18” thick walls that leaves only about six feet of internal diameter, less any cabeling and piping running through, plus a manway (ladder) of some kind … leaving not enough space inside to do much of anything. Another problem is that this tube, if 9' in diam. with a 6’ hole through it, and perhaps 20 ft. long, would weigh almost 200 tons by itself. FAR more than a single gun-flat could carry. The tube is just NOT that heavy!
 
So, it might well be a lower connecting tube as suggested, smaller in diameter and thinner of wall, but is certainly NOT the actual "conning tower” of an Iowa battleship.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
On Oct 5, 2018, at 11:59 AM, Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote:
 
Here’s an article describing the conning tower tube of the Iowa class.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-had-vault-like-conning-towers-bu-1737002503

The description appears to jive with the picture and Ralph’s link.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL
 


Re: MKT cars

Ken Roth
 

Rob and Co.
I'm going to jump into the fray since I recently completed a model of the MKT 79xxx war emergency box car.  This project was inspired by a black and white photo of an obviously yellow-painted MKT car in Tom Dill and Ed Austin's "Southern Pacific In Oregon Pictorial".  The picture in question was taken sometime in the early 1950's in Eugene, Oregon which answers the question of whether the cars were still yellow in the late 40's.  As to the accuracy of a model based on the Intermountain War Emergency box, I would say "not without modifications".  It would need at least replacing the underframe with a fish-belly reefer underframe such as Accurail or Branchline.  This requires some length adjustment and new cross members.  Bill Welch's thread earlier this year identifies some other body changes that should be done.  After study of prototype photos given to me by the late Richard Hendrickson, I elected to scratchbuild the sides to come closer to the spacing of the prototype trusses, and used a Red Caboose AAR roof.  I did use the Intermountain ends, however.  The unusual grabs and ladders on the car are also scratchbuilt. Decals are mostly from an old Oddball decal set which is no longer available, but I had to make my own decals to get the correct dimensional data. It ain't perfect, but I'm attaching a couple of photos anyway.  I am not quite satisfied with the paint color on my model.  I used TCP MKT yellow, but was informed by a friend with very good color perception that it is not so close.  So ... more weathering is in order.   Ken Roth


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Tony Thompson
 

     Could we somehow return to freight cars on this thread?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: MKT cars

steve_wintner
 

Rob, check the archives at https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/topic/

Search, as I suggested. The answer is "kind of". Depends on your persnicketiness.

Steve


Ulrich Gon.

Armand Premo
 

I still have one.When new it was painted for C&O.It is currently in storage.Armand Premo


Re: Old Ulrich / Walthers GS Gondola

Tim O'Connor
 


It surprises me that no one has come up with 3-D printed GS gondolas of
railroads other than the D&RGW. Those two Rio Grande models are actually
quite nice; I've seen them in person.

Tim

----------------------------

 Down at the local train store there is a Great Northern Ulrich/Walthers GS gondola in their used equipment case. The car's ends extend up to form heap shields atop the usual flat end with two horizontal braces. Is this model close to any GN cars, or did any other roads have cars of this design with heap shield ends? I'm tempted to buy it and do some upgrades, but not if the ends are wrong.

There was a GN 500-car group of cars, GN 75500-75999, with those heap shields, built in 1937 with the same 7-post sides as the Ulrich car, and also the same two-rib flat ends. But the GN cars used a door operating mechanism with chains that wrapped around a shaft, not the Enterprise links modeled on the Ulrich car (you could of course cut off the Ulrich operating-rod parts, and substitute brass wire of scale 1-inch diameter or so). Also, in the early 1950s, GN began to remove and replace those heap shields, so it may depend on your era.
The GN cars were also a little bigger in cubic capacity, due to higher sides, than the Ulrich car, but that is a lesser concern if you only want a model that is "close."
Tony Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Since we don’t know exactly what it is, it’s hard to guess what it may have contained … probably pipes, cables, and a ladder.

The shell and powder hoists for the big guns were contained within the gun’s barbettes. What most people call a “turret” is actually a Barbette It is a HUGE assembly with the gun-house on the top. It is several decks deep, surrounded by a heavily armored wall, and the whole interior rotates as a unit. The rotating part contains the shell and powder handling rooms and hoists. A considerable amount of “ready” ammunition (shells) are stored inside, a couple decks below the guns. The gun’s magazines surround the base of the barbette, deep down inside the ship, inside the armored “citadel” that surrounds the ships vitals. Since the hoists are already inside the barbette, they are not themselves armored.

What most do not understand is that the visible surface of a battleship is almost totally un-armored. It’s just sheet metal. The main turret gun-houses and the conning tower are about all the heavy armor that is exposed. The rest is deep within the ship. The core of the ship is protected with heavy armor (12”-plus thick) … a sort of box called the "citadel”, that begins two or three decks down from the “weather” deck . This box contains the magazines, the bases of the barbettes, the engine and boiler rooms, and the ship’s command center. It typically extends about half the length of the ship. It’s sides, more or less, form the ship’s “armor belt” which extends a few feet above and below the waterline.

Things of lesser importance (gun-directors, boiler uptakes, and such) may have some lighter armor. Aside from the armor belt, most of the hull is un-armored and protected by layers of water-tight compartments (many containing fuel, some filled with water, and some just voids).
 
Dan Mitchell
=========

On Oct 5, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:

Friends,

Could this tube have contained an elevator or other lift from the magazines to the gun turrets?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 10/5/18 3:09 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
NO, the photo presented here does NOT match the tube shown on the gun flat. Not even close. The actual "conning tower” described here is much larger, three stories high, with 18” thick walls. Not mentioned here, but it is also oval in cross section. This main "conning tower”, by itself, would weigh several hundred tons.

Someone’s earlier suggestion that the tube shown on the gun flat was a connecting tube joining the lower part of the “conning tower” to the main armored citadel a few decks below makes sense.

The thing shown on the flat is only (at most) nine feet in diameter … with 18” thick walls that leaves only about six feet of internal diameter, less any cabeling and piping running through, plus a manway (ladder) of some kind … leaving not enough space inside to do much of anything. Another problem is that this tube, if 9' in diam. with a 6’ hole through it, and perhaps 20 ft. long, would weigh almost 200 tons by itself. FAR more than a single gun-flat could carry. The tube is just NOT that heavy!

So, it might well be a lower connecting tube as suggested, smaller in diameter and thinner of wall, but is certainly NOT the actual "conning tower” of an Iowa battleship.

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Oct 5, 2018, at 11:59 AM, Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote:

Here’s an article describing the conning tower tube of the Iowa class. 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-had-vault-like-conning-towers-bu-1737002503

The description appears to jive with the picture and Ralph’s link.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL




Re: Old Ulrich / Walthers GS Gondola

Tony Thompson
 

Down at the local train store there is a Great Northern Ulrich/Walthers GS gondola in their used equipment case. The car's ends extend up to form heap shields atop the usual flat end with two horizontal braces. Is this model close to any GN cars, or did any other roads have cars of this design with heap shield ends? I'm tempted to buy it and do some upgrades, but not if the ends are wrong.

      There was a GN 500-car group of cars, GN 75500-75999, with those heap shields, built in 1937 with the same 7-post sides as the Ulrich car, and also the same two-rib flat ends. But the GN cars used a door operating mechanism with chains that wrapped around a shaft, not the Enterprise links modeled on the Ulrich car (you could of course cut off the Ulrich operating-rod parts, and substitute brass wire of scale 1-inch diameter or so). Also, in the early 1950s, GN began to remove and replace those heap shields, so it may depend on your era.
     The GN cars were also a little bigger in cubic capacity, due to higher sides, than the Ulrich car, but that is a lesser concern if you only want a model that is "close."

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: I think I hit the wrong button. . .

Tim O'Connor
 

All of a sudden I am seeing every individual message rather than messages grouped under topics. I am reading the site online. How can I go back to my previous view please?

Bill Welch
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


I think I hit the wrong button. . .

Bill Welch
 

All of a sudden I am seeing every individual message rather than messages grouped under topics. I am reading the site online. How can I go back to my previous view please?

Bill Welch


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Could this tube have contained an elevator or other lift from the magazines to the gun turrets?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 10/5/18 3:09 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
NO, the photo presented here does NOT match the tube shown on the gun flat. Not even close. The actual "conning tower” described here is much larger, three stories high, with 18” thick walls. Not mentioned here, but it is also oval in cross section. This main "conning tower”, by itself, would weigh several hundred tons.

Someone’s earlier suggestion that the tube shown on the gun flat was a connecting tube joining the lower part of the “conning tower” to the main armored citadel a few decks below makes sense.

The thing shown on the flat is only (at most) nine feet in diameter … with 18” thick walls that leaves only about six feet of internal diameter, less any cabeling and piping running through, plus a manway (ladder) of some kind … leaving not enough space inside to do much of anything. Another problem is that this tube, if 9' in diam. with a 6’ hole through it, and perhaps 20 ft. long, would weigh almost 200 tons by itself. FAR more than a single gun-flat could carry. The tube is just NOT that heavy!

So, it might well be a lower connecting tube as suggested, smaller in diameter and thinner of wall, but is certainly NOT the actual "conning tower” of an Iowa battleship.

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Oct 5, 2018, at 11:59 AM, Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote:

Here’s an article describing the conning tower tube of the Iowa class. 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-had-vault-like-conning-towers-bu-1737002503

The description appears to jive with the picture and Ralph’s link.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL



Old Ulrich / Walthers GS Gondola

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Down at the local train store there is a Great Northern Ulrich/Walthers GS gondola in their used equipment case. The car's ends extend up to form heap shields atop the usual flat end with two horizontal braces. Is this model close to any GN cars, or did any other roads have cars of this design with heap shield ends? I'm tempted to buy it and do some upgrades, but not if the ends are wrong.

Despite the cast-on grabs, I'm partial to the Ulrich cars. I have one lettered up for SP, and have recently acquired two more at bargain prices that will get the same treatment.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Re: Stupid hand brake question

Guy Wilber
 

Dennis wrote:

“Point remains, however, either requirement unifies the load and idler(s) into a single unit, which does have an operable hand brake.”

We are in full agreement!

Guy Wilber
Colfax, California


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

NO, the photo presented here does NOT match the tube shown on the gun flat. Not even close. The actual "conning tower” described here is much larger, three stories high, with 18” thick walls. Not mentioned here, but it is also oval in cross section. This main "conning tower”, by itself, would weigh several hundred tons.

Someone’s earlier suggestion that the tube shown on the gun flat was a connecting tube joining the lower part of the “conning tower” to the main armored citadel a few decks below makes sense.

The thing shown on the flat is only (at most) nine feet in diameter … with 18” thick walls that leaves only about six feet of internal diameter, less any cabeling and piping running through, plus a manway (ladder) of some kind … leaving not enough space inside to do much of anything. Another problem is that this tube, if 9' in diam. with a 6’ hole through it, and perhaps 20 ft. long, would weigh almost 200 tons by itself. FAR more than a single gun-flat could carry. The tube is just NOT that heavy!

So, it might well be a lower connecting tube as suggested, smaller in diameter and thinner of wall, but is certainly NOT the actual "conning tower” of an Iowa battleship.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Oct 5, 2018, at 11:59 AM, Matt Smith <flyn96@...> wrote:

Here’s an article describing the conning tower tube of the Iowa class. 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-had-vault-like-conning-towers-bu-1737002503

The description appears to jive with the picture and Ralph’s link.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL


Re: Stupid hand brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

Thanks Guy. I knew there was a requirement for idlers to be chained to loads at one time, and didn't recall when it was dropper, replaced by the requirement that the uncoupling devises be made inoperative. Point remains, however, either requirement unifies the load and idler(s) into a single unit, which does have an operable hand brake.

Dennis Storzek


Need help with instructions and/or PDS for a special Sunshine kit

Brent Greer
 

I recently acquired a Sunshine kit for an ATSF Fe-L,N,O 1910-1914 40' boxcar with fishbelly underframe (4 huge fishbelly "center" sills).   The box does not have a kit number on the label, but instead reads "Private Stock".   Unfortunately for me, the kit arrived without any paperwork at all.  No instructions, no PDS.  If anyone of my fellow kit builders from this list can provide me with a scan of the instructions and/or prototype data sheet(s), I would be most grateful !

 

You can email mail me off-list at:  studegator(at)msn(dot)com   or  drbrentgreer(at)yahoo(dot)com

 

or you can fax them to me at 321-574-2345

 

Sincere thanks,

Brent



Dr. J. Brent Greer


Re: Stupid hand brake question

Guy Wilber
 

On Oct 5, 2018, at 7:57 AM, Dennis wrote:

“I don't think anyone has argued that a loaded car with a load that required the removal or dropping if the hand brake couldn't be moved... but note that in your example the car is permanently coupled (safety chains in addition to the couplers) to the idler car(s) which did retain an operable hand brake, so each coupled unit still had a hand brake.”

My previous note covers this, I clipped the wrong message.

You mention chains...I don’t see them within this photo. Last week you mentioned chaining as being required by the MCBA, ARA and AAR. Prior to the Type “D” coupler and advancement of underframe regulations chaining cars for long loads (double or triple) was a requirement though by the late 1800’s the loading rules were revised to show chaining as “optional”. Blocking the couplers to take out the draft gear slack and disabling the uncoupling mechanism were requirements (throughout the timeframe if this list) for cars used in double or triple loads.

In 1920 the ARA removed any and all references to Safety Chains within The Manual Of Standard and Recommended Practice, The Open Top Loading Rules and The Interchange Rules:

“Safety Chains or Temporary Chains for Carrying Double Loads. — Inasmuch as the Rules Of Interchange have automatically eliminated the necessity for such recommended practice, this item has no value at present. It has therefore been dropped with the approval of The General Committee.”

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Matt Smith
 

Here’s an article describing the conning tower tube of the Iowa class. 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/iowa-class-battleships-had-vault-like-conning-towers-bu-1737002503

The description appears to jive with the picture and Ralph’s link.
--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL


Re: Flatcar Load: Conning Tower Tube

Matt Smith
 


--
Matt Smith
Bloomington, IL


Re: Stupid hand brake question

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 05:39 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
The brake wheel has been dismounted and can be seen between this car and the idle for the barrel end.
I don't think anyone has argued that a loaded car with a load that required the removal or dropping if the hand brake couldn't be moved... but note that in your example the car is permanently coupled (safety chains in addition to the couplers) to the idler car(s) which did retain an operable hand brake, so each coupled unit still had a hand brake. This is different from the situation Peter describes with the NH piggyback operation in two ways: 1) the hand brakes needed to be lowered only for loading, but COULD be raised for transit, and 2) not doing so could conceivably leave the entire consist with no operable hand brakes. It is my contention that in this instance, sine once loaded the load didn't interfere with the normal operation of the hand brakes, they needed to be raised.

Dennis Storzek

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