Date   

RR: F&C Support was BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit

Tim O'Connor
 


Eastern Seaboard Models found enough interest to import RTR versions of these
cars in N scale plastic. Peter you may be overlooking the fact that many of the
cars went on to "second lives" after the New Haven - some went to private owners
and some were even repainted into Penn Central colors.

Tim O'Connor

http://www.esmc.com/2250/Item2257.html



  There is not enough interest among NH modelers to get this one done.
  Peter Ness

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: F&C Support was BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Tim O'Connor
 


E&C PS-1? Oh right... Fred Becker.

Robins Rails (Bill Glass) produced both single and double door 50 foot PS-1 box cars.
Bill complained that Fred had signed a legal agreement never to produce any PS-1 box
car on his own, including plug door versions. (Fred made Bill's tooling for the PS-1.)

Tim O'


  A very long time ago a company called E&C Shops made a very good 50' PS Hydracushion box car.
  Can't find one since. Robins Rails made a 50' double door PS box car with near -correct doors,
  but not until Kadee a complete correct car.
  Peter Ness

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] F&C Support was BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Peter Ness
 

Hi Eldon,

Thanks for your voice of support. I've changed the subject to avoid thread drift.

Interesting to learn of NYC support. New Haven modelers were/are an odd collection. Back in the day - before the E&B Valley Hoppers, Osgood Bradley and Pullman Coaches, many NH modelers were happy to have Athearn BB 40' steel box cars and the foobies produced in other NH schemes made by the really old Branchline (the one that Custom-painted Athearn kits) and New England Models. At the same time NH modelers were quite literally flooded with an abundance of Custom brass steam, diesel and electric motive power, there were darned few correct pieces of rolling stock. Brass Cabeese, yes. Plastic freight cars, not so much. There were articles published on how to carve a basswood roof to set on an Athearn coach, because until E&B came along, the alternative was Soho brass. Concord Shops made brass plated sides that could be used with E&B Valley core kits.

There was the very old (and incorrect) Walthers wood box car and Westerfield has offered an accurate wood box car for quite a while, but that era is not as popular with NH modelers. I have a Westerfield kit because some soldiered on in Work Train service. Sunshine made a correct flat car. When F&C hit the scene with a bunch of prototypically correct head-end cars, sales were brisk at first. They were flat kits, and the yellow resin warped unpredictably. Some of us overcame these intricacies because at last we had correct cars. However, the first F&C experience was enough for some modelers. A short time ago I discussed the F&C NE Caboose kit that was bought by many, built by few.

A very long time ago a company called E&C Shops made a very good 50' PS Hyrdacushion box car. Can't find one since. Robins Rails made a 50' double door PS box car with near -correct doors, but not until Kadee a complete correct car.

If you want a NH DCFC you can choose between Red Ball - yes, that old Dale Newton Wabash Valley Red Ball - or Eastern Car Works. None since, and that's only the 36' version.

It wasn't until Red Caboose and (the later) Branchline released the 10' IH "1937 AAR" box cars that NH modelers had their first prototypically correct, quality freight car in mass quantity. Kadee is producing the first correct 10'6" PS-1 NH box car next year. Speedwitch and Intermountain made another correct flat car. There are still a many cars to be done and the Insulated Box car is one of them. Open top hoppers? the old Athearn 2-bay, Roundhouse 3-bay, and Athearn quad were close to correct for several types, but oh that quality. Accurail made a better quality 2-bay. Same for gondolas until the F&C release.

There are some of us that have rolled our own over the years. A number of years ago I built the NH 10' PS cars with IDE's. I used a combination of Branchline and Intermountain parts. A few years after that Intermountain produced the car for the NH Historical and Technical Association as a limited run. Now they offer the NYC Pacemaker version and a later New Haven repaint, but not the one in service from 1945 to the end of time for this group. Missed the limited run, missed it forever. Good thing I built three!

So I cannot take the position "please help us poor New Haven modelers" as much as I'd like to. I can understand a lot of NH modelers have bleeding wallets due to the plethora of releases of passenger cars and motive power from Rapido, but for many NH modelers an insulated box car just doesn’t seem to float their boat all that much. Most respondents are looking for foreign road cars and a couple of BAR modelers who like this car as well. The cars did run on foreign roads as far west as California. I recall seeing a photo of one in Los Angeles. So, if it fits your post-1953 era it's not a bad one-off to have in operation.

There is not enough interest among NH modelers to get this one done.

Peter Ness

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Guys;

Peter is right about F&C's business plan, and it definitely includes: a) tech support, and b) sales.

Steve used to tell me the story of a NYC kit he did, and called NYC buyer support "the kiss of death" thereafter. PRR fans bought him out on a recent hopper project, and ordered more in similar numbers, in the first hours of the first morning of the convention, followed by hours of discussion and photo browsing, for what classes PRR fans wanted next. A small group of us provide regular "data packs", in support.

If folks want a given kit, they have to prove it.

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter Ness
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:39 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Bill,



That is sort of the plan. The original F&C kit was a flat kit, and there was just a thread reminiscing on the joys of building flat kits. I’ve been there and still am for some needs.



Steve has the 1-piece body ready to go but due to poorer than anticipated sales of the New Haven gondolas and lack of support from the New Haven Railroad Historical and Technical Association (that is another story), Steve is reluctant to throw the product out there when he has so many other projects going. I completely understand this.



I missed if the late Stan Rydarowicz released this car and if that was one-piece. I know it was catalogued, but that’s it.



But, show Steve there is interest and it will be done. That’s my mission, but from responses so far it looks like Steve has made the right call to date.



Peter Ness



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET



Why not ask Funaro & Camerlengo to rerun their kit? I built years ago and thought it built into a nice model. Or maybe that is your plan Peter.

Bill Welch


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Brian Carlson
 

Elden?
I wasn’t aware of a recent hopper from F&C that would appeal to Pennsy fans. Which was it?

Brian J. Carlson

On Oct 11, 2018, at 2:52 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Guys;

Peter is right about F&C's business plan, and it definitely includes: a) tech support, and b) sales.

Steve used to tell me the story of a NYC kit he did, and called NYC buyer support "the kiss of death" thereafter. PRR fans bought him out on a recent hopper project,


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Bill Welch
 

Exactly why there are so many PRR models and so few NYC, one group buys and builds models, the other. . .

Bill Welch


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Tony Thompson
 

Richard Hendrickson was fond of saying, "THESE are the good old days in the hobby."
Tony Thompson 


On Oct 11, 2018, at 11:29 AM, Peter Ness <prness@...> wrote:

Tony,

 

This is truly an example to show the “good old days” are not that at all in hindsight!  Absolutely 100% true when E&B released the kit EVERYONE had to have at least one because there was no other. Boy were they GREAT! But…yeah, the fit of the parts and thickness of one of the first it not the first “see-through” running boards in HO scale plastic….but it was the ONLY ONE! Oh, and the wheels? With mold lugs still attached? Yikes!

 

What we had to contend with for building and operating the “only accurate model” of its type.  Times have changed and while the good ol’ days may have looked that way at the time, it ain’t so anymore, lol.

 

I still run mine with Kadee wheelsets, and when the truck side frames fail and I have to put real trucks on I will replace the running boards and maybe replace the grabs – more lipstick than they deserve, I know, but they are 3’ models for me in any case.

 

The New Haven ran stings of these with LNE “pool cars” bringing cement from Maybrook to CT to build the Interstate Highway System…

 

Steve, Tony, “Thanks for the memories!”

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:50 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

 

Steve Kay wrote:



My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

 

    When the E&B Valley kit came out, there was no other square-hatch model available. Thus lots of people bought and built it, including me. But the side stakes are distinctly oversize, and the roof peak is too high (compare a model to any prototype photo, or to the accurate InterMountain version). I don't operate the one I still have, and wouldn't urge anyone to try and put lipstick on it today.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Brian Carlson
 

Like everyone else I had one. Built it as a young teen in the late 80’s it was a GE Lamps one. Sold it 10 or so years ago for $5 at a show back when I was selling off all my old stuff. 

I still have one of the Enterprise hoppers modeled by ECW (can’t recall if E&B originated that tooling also.) Keeping that one since it’s still the only one in plastic. F&C has it in resin. 

I loved the old E&B tagline on their boxes. “Quality models for 1/50 of a century”



Brian J. Carlson 

On Oct 11, 2018, at 2:29 PM, Peter Ness <prness@...> wrote:


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Brent Greer
 

One of my early attempts was one of these same kits.  Met with similar results.  I was able to get the corners square, but the sides bowed in so significantly that I had to use brass stock to brace them apart for the roof to fit flush.

I did lots of added details including hatch details and full brake rigging, an etched running board and a few other odds and ends.  I'm still pleased with the efforts, but it was much more effort with little improvement over the Bowser and Kato offerings now available.

Still, it was the best available at the time and I'm better off for the attempt.  Now I'm at least willing to dive into a resin tank car project without too much anxiety.!

Brent
________________________________
Dr. J. Brent Greer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of StephenK <thekays100@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 12:37:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper
 
Many moons ago, early in my kit building days, I attempted one of these kits.   The result was not good:   The car was not square and had serious gaps in the corners.   I ran it for a while (it didn't run too well either...) and finally scrapped it . 

Since that time I have built many kits--Branchline, Proto, Intermountain, F&C, Eel River, Tichy, etc.   I am confident that my kit-building skills have improved

I recently was at a train show and saw a few E&B  kits on sale cheap.   I picked one up to see what I could do with it.   

My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

In any case, it was an interesting lesson learned.   Even if the kits are really cheap, the results are not good enough in today's market.

Steve Kay


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:56 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
The same. The NYC-prototype smoothside passenger car kits and early "American Flyer" coaches are also originally E&B Valley.
Also sold under the Robin's Rails name, I think, although that was the same proprietor. All the items Ben mentioned were tooled by Patal Engineering, who was also responsible for the old Plasticville line of building kits. The buildings were pretty nice, for their time, but the same can't be said for their rolling stock kits. Poor fits were a Patal trademark, as were bowed roofs on the passenger cars. When Robin's Rails called it quits, somehow Patal ended up with the tooling, which they then sold to Eastern Car Works. Patal is also responsible for the line of rather chunky looking molded styrene trucks sold by ECW.

Dennis Storzek


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Kay asked:

"Just a thought: is this the same kit that Eastern Car Works (?) put out later on, or is that different tooling altogether?"

The same. The NYC-prototype smoothside passenger car kits and early "American Flyer" coaches are also originally E&B Valley.


Ben Hom


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

StephenK
 

It looks like many of us had the same experience.   Just a thought: is this the same kit that Eastern Car Works (?) put out later on, or is that different tooling altogether?

Steve Kay


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

I built one as well, eons ago - getting it all square was something of a
nightmare, but I knew it could be done because there were several of them
on the club layout. But I agree 100% - simply not worth the effort now!
The Bowser kits can be found at train shows and they build up into very
presentable models.

Tim O'Connor



Many moons ago, early in my kit building days, I attempted one of these kits.   The result was not good:   The car was not square and had serious gaps in the corners.   I ran it for a while (it didn't run too well either...) and finally scrapped it .

Since that time I have built many kits--Branchline, Proto, Intermountain, F&C, Eel River, Tichy, etc.   I am confident that my kit-building skills have improved

I recently was at a train show and saw a few E&B  kits on sale cheap.   I picked one up to see what I could do with it.  

My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

In any case, it was an interesting lesson learned.   Even if the kits are really cheap, the results are not good enough in today's market.

Steve Kay

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Guys;

Peter is right about F&C's business plan, and it definitely includes: a) tech support, and b) sales.

Steve used to tell me the story of a NYC kit he did, and called NYC buyer support "the kiss of death" thereafter. PRR fans bought him out on a recent hopper project, and ordered more in similar numbers, in the first hours of the first morning of the convention, followed by hours of discussion and photo browsing, for what classes PRR fans wanted next. A small group of us provide regular "data packs", in support.

If folks want a given kit, they have to prove it.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter Ness
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:39 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Bill,



That is sort of the plan. The original F&C kit was a flat kit, and there was just a thread reminiscing on the joys of building flat kits. I’ve been there and still am for some needs.



Steve has the 1-piece body ready to go but due to poorer than anticipated sales of the New Haven gondolas and lack of support from the New Haven Railroad Historical and Technical Association (that is another story), Steve is reluctant to throw the product out there when he has so many other projects going. I completely understand this.



I missed if the late Stan Rydarowicz released this car and if that was one-piece. I know it was catalogued, but that’s it.



But, show Steve there is interest and it will be done. That’s my mission, but from responses so far it looks like Steve has made the right call to date.



Peter Ness



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET



Why not ask Funaro & Camerlengo to rerun their kit? I built years ago and thought it built into a nice model. Or maybe that is your plan Peter.

Bill Welch


Re: BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Peter Ness
 

Bill,

 

That is sort of the plan.  The original F&C kit was a flat kit, and there was just a thread reminiscing on the joys of building flat kits.  I’ve been there and still am for some needs.

 

Steve has the 1-piece body ready to go but due to poorer than anticipated sales of the New Haven gondolas and lack of support from the New Haven Railroad Historical and Technical Association (that is another story), Steve is reluctant to throw the product out there when he has so many other projects going.  I completely understand this.

 

I missed if the late Stan Rydarowicz released this car and if that was one-piece. I know it was catalogued, but that’s it.

 

But, show Steve there is interest and it will be done.  That’s my mission, but from responses so far it looks like Steve has made the right call to date.

 

Peter Ness  

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 2:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

 

Why not ask Funaro & Camerlengo to rerun their kit? I built years ago and thought it built into a nice model. Or maybe that is your plan Peter.

Bill Welch


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Peter Ness
 

Tony,

 

This is truly an example to show the “good old days” are not that at all in hindsight!  Absolutely 100% true when E&B released the kit EVERYONE had to have at least one because there was no other. Boy were they GREAT! But…yeah, the fit of the parts and thickness of one of the first it not the first “see-through” running boards in HO scale plastic….but it was the ONLY ONE! Oh, and the wheels? With mold lugs still attached? Yikes!

 

What we had to contend with for building and operating the “only accurate model” of its type.  Times have changed and while the good ol’ days may have looked that way at the time, it ain’t so anymore, lol.

 

I still run mine with Kadee wheelsets, and when the truck side frames fail and I have to put real trucks on I will replace the running boards and maybe replace the grabs – more lipstick than they deserve, I know, but they are 3’ models for me in any case.

 

The New Haven ran stings of these with LNE “pool cars” bringing cement from Maybrook to CT to build the Interstate Highway System…

 

Steve, Tony, “Thanks for the memories!”

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 1:50 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

 

Steve Kay wrote:



My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

 

    When the E&B Valley kit came out, there was no other square-hatch model available. Thus lots of people bought and built it, including me. But the side stakes are distinctly oversize, and the roof peak is too high (compare a model to any prototype photo, or to the accurate InterMountain version). I don't operate the one I still have, and wouldn't urge anyone to try and put lipstick on it today.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Bill Welch
 

Why not ask Funaro & Camerlengo to rerun their kit? I built years ago and thought it built into a nice model. Or maybe that is your plan Peter.

Bill Welch


Re: E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

Tony Thompson
 

Steve Kay wrote:

My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

    When the E&B Valley kit came out, there was no other square-hatch model available. Thus lots of people bought and built it, including me. But the side stakes are distinctly oversize, and the roof peak is too high (compare a model to any prototype photo, or to the accurate InterMountain version). I don't operate the one I still have, and wouldn't urge anyone to try and put lipstick on it today.

Tony Thompson




BAR/NH Insulated Box Car Resin Kit RESET

Peter Ness
 

Dear All,


I titled this RESET because of original thread drift to discuss the technology of decal printing and vagaries of pixelation which, while informative are not aligned with the original intent. 


As of today we stand at 34 units which is a far cry from the minimum 50 needed.

I will keep this open through the upcoming weekend before calling it quits. The original message follows in case this is your first time reading this.


I am looking for interest in a resin kit of the New Haven 45000-45099, BAR 2000-2299 40’ Steel Plug Door Insulated Box Cars (XIH) built by Pacific Car and Foundry in 1953 for both railroads.

While these cars wore several schemes over the years, they are most noted for the popular red, white and blue “State of Maine” scheme. This will be a one-piece body kit.


If you are interested, please email me at prness”at”roadrunner”dot”com. Please use the title of this notice as the subject of your email. Also please include your name, mailing address and the quantity of kits you will purchase.

50 orders should do the trick. For those who reply I’ll keep you posted of progress towards the goal.


Thanks for your help and support.


Peter Ness


E&B Valley RR ACF Covered Hopper

StephenK
 

Many moons ago, early in my kit building days, I attempted one of these kits.   The result was not good:   The car was not square and had serious gaps in the corners.   I ran it for a while (it didn't run too well either...) and finally scrapped it . 

Since that time I have built many kits--Branchline, Proto, Intermountain, F&C, Eel River, Tichy, etc.   I am confident that my kit-building skills have improved

I recently was at a train show and saw a few E&B  kits on sale cheap.   I picked one up to see what I could do with it.   

My new attempt is square and gaps are minimal, but the fact of the matter is the car doesn't look as good as the Bowser and Kato shake-the Box kits do.   And it takes a lot more work.  I haven't tried Intermountain's version, which I am sure is more work (due to more parts, etc.) but I am willing to bet the result is better.

In any case, it was an interesting lesson learned.   Even if the kits are really cheap, the results are not good enough in today's market.

Steve Kay


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Ralston Steel Car Co. photos

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Gang;

Another question: when did the first "slide down flush with deck" vertical staff handbrakes come into use?

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 12:21 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Ralston Steel Car Co. photos

A couple weeks ago during a discussion of collapsible hand brakes, Tim O'Connor posted a photo of the end sill of an Idaho Washington & Northern flatcar with a swing down hand brake, and I opined it must be a dedicated logging flat. Today I ran into a photo of the all steel version. Note the hand brake and fold down stakes.




This Is from a collection of Ralston Steel Car Co. builders photos available here:

Blockedhttp://www.columbusrailroads.com/new/?menu=06Industry&submenu=10Ralston_Steel_Car_Co

Dennis Storzek