Date   

Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] RPM Chicagoland Photos

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:07 PM, skibbs4 wrote:
Here's the timeline slide, that was published as one slide of a larger presentation:
image.png
Mike,

I can add a little more detail to the disposition of my line, for what it's worth.

Beginning in 1983, about a year after Al Westerfield started, I ultimately offered five kits, some in multiple road names:

A Soo Line wood caboose. I wanted to do a freightcar, but couldn't convince myself there was a market for freightcars at the price I'd need to get, and thought the caboose was a safer bet...

The Soo Line "sawtooth" boxcar, which is the kit I really wanted to do... I had to measure a prototype and do my own drawings.

A NYC double sheathed boxcar and auto car, also available with NKP and DSS&A lettering, and then a Rutland version of each with different ends. Someone wanted the South Shore version, and steered me to the NYC drawings published in the CBC and one extant car at the museum in North Freedom. This was a project that just kept growing, as modelers following other roads (NKP, Rutland) noticed the similarity and provided additional information to make them happen.

A Canadian Gov't Railways / CN single sheathed boxcar. This one was promoted by Stafford Swain, who arranged for Ken Goslett to did the builders drawings out of the archives of the Canadian Railway Historical Society museum at Delson, PQ.

Along about this time I asked Grandt Line about the possibility of doing a standard gauge KC brake set to replace the CalScale set that had just gone out of production, and Dave asked for anticipated volume. This caused the rude awakening that while I was making many more different kits, sales volume had been essentially flat since my second year, and this was never going to be a full time business, so I turned my energies elsewhere.

At this time, 1986 or '87, DesPlaines Hobby (not DesPlaines Valley) was still a partnership, and Ron Sebastian's partner (Bob Dennis, IIRC) was interested in expanding the business into manufacturing, and I sold the entire line and production equipment. Within a year or so the partnership dissolved, leaving the resin kit line an orphan. Most of my line died then and there. DesPlaines Hobby eventually copied the caboose as an injection molded flat kit, and Westerfield did new patterns of the NYC cars and put them in his line, rendering my older work moot. Some years later, the Soo Line Historical & Technical Society asked me about the boxcar patterns, since the car had been off the market for at least a decade. This resulted in the Society purchasing the rights to the design, which they then licensed to Speedwitch, and Ted turned first generation parts that I had retained into a one-piece body, while supplying a revised floor pattern. This is the only one of my kits that lives on; I have no idea what ever happened to the CN car, although I used drawings of a similar CN car as the basis for an Accurail kit.

I point this all out because the flow chart seems to imply that Speedwitch was somehow a continuation of my line, which is by no means true, except for that one kit.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Castle Graphics TCG wooden boxcar

Rick Bess
 

Actually, that car was only marketed by Cameron Scale Models also.  But as the discussion is going on about resin manufacturers, in O Scale, a few years before Rails Unlimited started selling resin cars, Robert Ferris of Cameron Scale Models started selling resin cars and then started producing resin freight and traction cars(before that he built custom made RTR brass cars, usually 50' flat cars). He eventually transitioned into marketing built up ready to run resin cars for specific customers and has done that ever since.

 

Rick Bess in (ashamed to say)Illinois


Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] RPM Chicagoland Photos

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 03:38 PM, Peter Ness wrote:
For example, I know (from reading, not memory!) that Frank Ellison was writing articles on prototype modeling in the 1930’s…there were others as well.
Peter, I don't know if Frank Ellison really fits that image, from the articles he authored that I recall reading in back issues, his mantra was realistic OPERATION, where instead of running 'round and 'round in a circle, a train departed from a yard, worked its way across the layout, and finally terminated in a yard, although the track plan I vaguely remember showed that one yard was common to both ends of his layout. "A model railroad is a play", If I remember his statement correctly, " the layout the stage, the trains the players, the schedule the script." As to equipment, he reportedly would remove the pilot and trailing trucks on some locomotives, to cut down on derailments. So much for prototype fidelity.

The author I recall first pointing out that the way to build a convincing model was to find a neat prototype and follow it was one time MR editor Paul Larson, although he was concentrating on structures. The scratchbuilt structures for his Mineral Point & Northern that he wrote up for RMC after he left MR were real gems.

The first in depth article about a prototype freightcar I recall was on the X29 boxcar in the original Prototype Modeler magazine sometime in the mid to late seventies. It was like, wow, why can't we have histories like this for all the cars. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the author's name.

Dennis Storzek


Re: RPM Chicagoland Photos

Tim O'Connor
 


The Delta Lines!! Hugely influential. My Dad's HO scale dream layout (never built) was
based on the Delta Lines design (O scale). When I bought my first house, I also came up
with a ridiculously ambitious track plan based on the DL. In those days I could "duck
under" without injuring myself. :-) And then along came John Armstrong...

Question: Who first popularized "shelf" style, "walk around" model railroads? A major
RPM milestone, IMO.

Tim O'


Peter Ness wrote

 > I know... that Frank Ellison was writing articles on prototype modeling in the 1930's

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: RPM Chicagoland Photos

Tim O'Connor
 


I don't remember those articles (I was an avid teenage reader of all things railroads)
but I do remember being very impressed in those days by the models of Paul ...[?? damn
another brain cramp] and his beautifully WEATHERED Southern Pacific steam locomotives in
the pages of Model Railroder - at a time when very few people (other than John Allen)
were weathering any of their models.

RPM isn't just rolling stock!

Tim O'Connor


As a impressionable teenager, I remember just being entranced by the March 1971 Model Railroader cover which featured Bill Clouser's O Scale boxcars on the cover. The detail for freight cars was incredible for the time.

There is an interview of Bill by Bob Hegge in the MR issue where Bill describes the process in how he builds a model to make molds. There is several pictures of his completed model work along with a picture of a number of different boxcar ends waiting to be used. He discusses initially selling these boxcars in the "Ultra-Scale" line in the late 1960s. He discontinued selling them by the time the article was published, but said because terrific response, he was thinking about reissuing them. Perhaps someone knows if he did.

A worthwhile read to see the thoughts of a early modeler casting resin kits.

Bill Hirt

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: ARA/AAR Boxcar Modeling Clinic Link

steve_wintner
 

Great stuff, thanks Bill


Re: RPM history (was Chicagoland Photos)

Tim O'Connor
 


CJ - you are correct! I remembered it wrong. Richard said the models were stolen
from the trunk of his rental car in Philadelphia. Given that fact, then it probably
is the case that it was a random theft, and the 60+ models most likely got tossed.
SIXTY Hendrickson freight cars lost... :-(



I believe he lost his models after leaving the convention. Perhaps Philadelphia.
As chair of that convention I want to correct the insult(?) to Pittsburgh.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: gon with a pole load

Brian Termunde
 

YESSS!!!!

Thank you so much Tim. This is exactly the kind of gon I need for my Willapa Harbor branch. Milwaukee, and 41 feet.

And I appreciate you answering my question even before I asked. Talk about anticipating needs. <G>

Thanks again.

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah


Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] RPM Chicagoland Photos

William Hirt
 

As a impressionable teenager, I remember just being entranced by the March 1971 Model Railroader cover which featured Bill Clouser's O Scale boxcars on the cover. The detail for freight cars was incredible for the time.

There is an interview of Bill by Bob Hegge in the MR issue where Bill describes the process in how he builds a model to make molds. There is several pictures of his completed model work along with a picture of a number of different boxcar ends waiting to be used. He discusses initially selling these boxcars in the "Ultra-Scale" line in the late 1960s. He discontinued selling them by the time the article was published, but said because terrific response, he was thinking about reissuing them. Perhaps someone knows if he did.

A worthwhile read to see the thoughts of a early modeler casting resin kits.

Bill Hirt


On 10/22/2018 3:52 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:30 PM, skibbs4 wrote:


Dynamometer Car Z / Northeastern Ambroid Kit

Charlie Vlk
 

All-

I am trying to find what information the Northeastern / Ambroid CB&Q Dynamometer Car Z HO Kit was based on.   Back in the late 60s or early 70’s I called Northeastern asking about it and they had no files on the kit.

It is a fairly accurate model and must have been based on drawings and photos that have not surfaced yet.   The source of the pen and ink rendering of the car likewise has not been discovered.  The drawings of the car that appeared in railroad journals do not show the configuration of the car as it was built judging from early photos.  

The kit instructions bear the note “From the collection of Russ Shiel”.  Does anyone have any idea who he might be?

Thank you,

Charlie Vlk

 


Re: RPM history (was Chicagoland Photos)

 

The first freight car dinner occurred at the Milwaukee NMRA convention in 1985.  Jeff English, John Neihrich, myself and one other had dinner together.  We met informally each year after that, the attendees changing and enlarging.  This formalized with the dinner at Tony’s. 

  • Al Westerfield

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 2:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io; ResinFreightCarBuilders@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] RPM history (was Chicagoland Photos)

 

Dennis

An excellent addition to the conversation!

As I said, we'd need a real (serious) publication to do the subject justice.

In the meantime, let us not forget the launch of FRIENDS OF THE FREIGHT CAR by
Tony Thompson at the Pittsburgh NMRA convention in 1990 (where Tony was then a
professor at Carnegie Mellon). The same convention where someone stole a whole
bunch of Richard Hendrickson's hand crafted models! (I hope at least they found
a home on a layout, and didn't end up in a dumpster.)

More timeline questions - when did Microscale first start making railroad decals?
CDS? Greg Komar? Mark Vaughan? AccuCals? Railroad prototype modeling was greatly
aided by artistic efforts to produce super-accurate lettering for our models. And
those efforts (aided by people like Richard Hendrickson) inspired Champ to start
producing super-accurate lettering sets too. And the accurate lettering movement
has been taken up by Ted Culotta, Dan Kohlberg, and a great many others.

And of course, RPM has had a HUGE influence on almost every hobby manufacturer.

Tim O'Connor






Well, I'll nominate William J. Clouser's WJC Custom Cast line as the beginning of COMMERCIAL resin kits. Others may have used what was at the time called "tooling resin" for personal parts, but the Clouser boxcars were the first product of this sort offered for sale. While Bill is better known for his traction models, IIRC the boxcars came first, and were actually developed because he needed accurate models to populate a courtroom display, illustrative courtroom models being a major portion of his custom model making business. Once the masters had been made on someone else's nickle, it was easy to produce more. I believe these became "proof of concept" for his later traction model line. I recall Bill being out at the Illinois Railway Museum in the very early seventies to gather measurements for the North Shore interurban that became his first traction offering, and the boxcars had been done several years earlier, perhaps in the late sixties. At any rate, at a time when MR articles were mentioning Cerro metal castings made in latex rubber molds, Clouser showed there were better materials.

And of course, there would be no cast resin models if it wasn't for Al Westerfield, who not only did extensive research on his prototypes in an era when accurate and complete data was hard to come by, but also developed a workable method of producing kits at a price that encouraged the market. Clouser 1/4" scale kits were nice, but they were pricey. By comparison, Al's kits were priced where the average modeler could actually believe that he could populate a layout with them. One thing that few mention is that before Al actually went into business, he basically published his whole methodology in the hobby press, in RMC, IIRC, in a series of articles in the late seventies.

While I was only producing resin kits for a couple years before moving on to other things, I would not have even known where to start without the knowledge of what these two individuals had already accomplished.

I should also mention Tom Madden, also a professional modelmaker, who lead the industry to its "second generation", consulting with and teaching several manufacturers the secrets of viable one piece resin bodies.

I'm sure there are others who made significant contributions; these are the ones who stand out to me.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

 


Re: gon with a pole load

Brian Termunde
 

I likewise agree that it's a Milwaukee gondola, and came to that GUESS prior to reading the other posts. And yes, an idler car would be in order, perhaps it was uncoupled prior to the photo being taken?

 Bonus questions, any idea's or guesses how long the car is? Number series?

TIA!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah


Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] RPM Chicagoland Photos

Peter Ness
 

Mike,

 

I’m glad you mentioned articles.  A lot of the conversation has focused on resin car kits, and manufacturers (which I think may be cause of the majority of the conversation since that constitutes the bulk of the timeline from the 1970’s onward), but there has been less conversation on the articles. I think it may be more productive to focus on authors than articles , perhaps?

 

For example, I know (from reading, not memory!) that Frank Ellison was writing articles on prototype modeling in the 1930’s…there were others as well. Tools, media and technology made evolution of prototype modeling possible (my opinion) and in the 1970’s (maybe late ‘60’s?) there were publications devoted only to prototype modeling. Eric Neubauer, David Casdorph, Richard Hendrickson, Frank Hodina, Dennis Storzek and many, many others who have or continue to support this group are authors that come to mind.

 

While I suppose it’s possible we may all recall “the same” article that “showed us the way” I think it’s more likely it was a group of different articles in different publications that influenced us and perhaps this aspect of the hobby, which is why I propose authors rather than articles may have more meaning to the casual timeline reader.

 

Also, again, my opinion, some manufacturers that do not jump immediately to mind nowadays were providing prototype modelers with detail parts decades ago – Walthers, Cal-Scale, Red Ball, Precision Scale come to mind…and today there are newer manufacturers of detail parts as well as a couple of the oldies.

 

Lastly, I can understand the original timeline, produced under deadline and I am sure most gratefully accepted, can probably stand some correction even if it stands as is.  The one that jumps out to me is the 1950’s statement that “standards for models are introduced”. I just checked the website, and NMRA was founded in 1935. So perhaps if there are some specific standards from the 1950’s that drove prototype modeling, they bear mentioning….otherwise, standards should probably be shifted earlier?

 

I think whether the timelines stays focused on supporting the 25th anniversary of the event or is expanded to embrace prototype modeling in general, some of the above should be reviewed for consideration to include on the timeline.

 

Re: the Steve Hile timeline.  I think this is a great start – may also have contributed to the spate of conversation on resin car makers…so, an observation… before resin there were prototype model kits produced – and built, right? So, for the timeline extending back to the 1930’s would it be appropriate to also consider the manufacturers of wood, cast metal or brass prototype models? Dale Newton-Red Ball, Ulrich, Walthers and others? And for the scratch-builders, Northeastern Scale Lumber ( or was Kapplers first or is there a predecessor?) Central Valley, others?

 

I get it if the intent is to focus on prototype modeling with resin and contemporary technology, but if the point is to show how the path began and grew to get to today, these may be other considerations.

 

My two cents,

Peter Ness


Re: history (was RPM Chicagoland Photos)

John Riddell
 

To add to the list –

 

BGR Group (John Newland) produced resin kits for passenger cars

Norwest Kits (Brian Pate) produced resin kits for both American and Canadian cars.

Point 1 Models

Kaslo Shops

 

John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: gon with a pole load

Tim O'Connor
 


Guessing at the numbers, it looks like 302x9x

Ffrom the 1940 ORER, CMStP&P series 300000 to 302499, 41 foot all steel drop bottom gondolas with drop ends!

In 1923 the reporting marks would be CM&StP as people have said.

Tim O'Connor




The link below takes you to a nice view of a gon with a pole load, and an overview of the pole storage area for Southern California Electric in 1923.
 
http://hdl.huntington.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p16003coll2/id/20587/rec/142
 
You can get a better view of the image itself at the link below...
 
http://hdl.huntington.org/utils/ajaxhelper/?CISOROOT=p16003coll2&CISOPTR=20587&action=2&DMSCALE=100&DMWIDTH=5112&DMHEIGHT=4810&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=general%20store&DMROTATE=0
 
Anyone know what the road name on the gon might be? I cannot quite make it out.
 
TIA
 
Claus Schlund

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Poultry Cars at RPM - Presentation & Handout

Douglas Harding
 

It was an excellent presentation, for me the most memorable of the weekend. She had a wonderful selection of photos and videos, some I had not seen before. And her research was top notch giving us excellent history and background of the poultry transportation industry. I saw and learned.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeremy Dummler
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Poultry Cars at RPM - Presentation & Handout

 

The presentation that my wife, Kristin Dummler, gave on Poultry Cars at RPM Chicagoland along with her handout is now available for download at:

 

 

There are only 3 options there, one for my Low Vision clinic handout, and then her handout and complete presentation.  

 

Thank you,

Jeremy Dummler

Wauconda, IL


Re: RPM history (was Chicagoland Photos)

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis

An excellent addition to the conversation!

As I said, we'd need a real (serious) publication to do the subject justice.

In the meantime, let us not forget the launch of FRIENDS OF THE FREIGHT CAR by
Tony Thompson at the Pittsburgh NMRA convention in 1990 (where Tony was then a
professor at Carnegie Mellon). The same convention where someone stole a whole
bunch of Richard Hendrickson's hand crafted models! (I hope at least they found
a home on a layout, and didn't end up in a dumpster.)

More timeline questions - when did Microscale first start making railroad decals?
CDS? Greg Komar? Mark Vaughan? AccuCals? Railroad prototype modeling was greatly
aided by artistic efforts to produce super-accurate lettering for our models. And
those efforts (aided by people like Richard Hendrickson) inspired Champ to start
producing super-accurate lettering sets too. And the accurate lettering movement
has been taken up by Ted Culotta, Dan Kohlberg, and a great many others.

And of course, RPM has had a HUGE influence on almost every hobby manufacturer.

Tim O'Connor





Well, I'll nominate William J. Clouser's WJC Custom Cast line as the beginning of COMMERCIAL resin kits. Others may have used what was at the time called "tooling resin" for personal parts, but the Clouser boxcars were the first product of this sort offered for sale. While Bill is better known for his traction models, IIRC the boxcars came first, and were actually developed because he needed accurate models to populate a courtroom display, illustrative courtroom models being a major portion of his custom model making business. Once the masters had been made on someone else's nickle, it was easy to produce more. I believe these became "proof of concept" for his later traction model line. I recall Bill being out at the Illinois Railway Museum in the very early seventies to gather measurements for the North Shore interurban that became his first traction offering, and the boxcars had been done several years earlier, perhaps in the late sixties. At any rate, at a time when MR articles were mentioning Cerro metal castings made in latex rubber molds, Clouser showed there were better materials.

And of course, there would be no cast resin models if it wasn't for Al Westerfield, who not only did extensive research on his prototypes in an era when accurate and complete data was hard to come by, but also developed a workable method of producing kits at a price that encouraged the market. Clouser 1/4" scale kits were nice, but they were pricey. By comparison, Al's kits were priced where the average modeler could actually believe that he could populate a layout with them. One thing that few mention is that before Al actually went into business, he basically published his whole methodology in the hobby press, in RMC, IIRC, in a series of articles in the late seventies.

While I was only producing resin kits for a couple years before moving on to other things, I would not have even known where to start without the knowledge of what these two individuals had already accomplished.

I should also mention Tom Madden, also a professional modelmaker, who lead the industry to its "second generation", consulting with and teaching several manufacturers the secrets of viable one piece resin bodies.

I'm sure there are others who made significant contributions; these are the ones who stand out to me.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Poultry Cars at RPM - Presentation & Handout

Jeremy Dummler
 

The presentation that my wife, Kristin Dummler, gave on Poultry Cars at RPM Chicagoland along with her handout is now available for download at:


There are only 3 options there, one for my Low Vision clinic handout, and then her handout and complete presentation.  

Thank you,
Jeremy Dummler
Wauconda, IL


Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] RPM Chicagoland Photos

skibbs4
 

Since Steve Hile started his diagram with Clouser as generation 0, I'll take your input as more of a confirmation than a nomination. ;-)

Here's the timeline slide, that was published as one slide of a larger presentation:

 Hope that comes through in Groups IO ok.  The rest is on www.rpmconference.com as mentioned earlier.

Mike Skibbe

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:52 PM Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:30 PM, skibbs4 wrote:
I'll offer to collect that information and get it correct online, to the extent we can agree <grin>.  And we can discuss the Steve Hile timeline, as I know he would appreciate feedback as well.  I think it's a history worth documenting, which was the motivation for what we did.  Now let's continue the conversation.
 
All the best,
Mike Skibbe

Well, I'll nominate William J. Clouser's WJC Custom Cast line as the beginning of COMMERCIAL resin kits. Others may have used what was at the time called "tooling resin" for personal parts, but the Clouser boxcars were the first product of this sort offered for sale. While Bill is better known for his traction models, IIRC the boxcars came first, and were actually developed because he needed accurate models to populate a courtroom display, illustrative courtroom models being a major portion of his custom model making business. Once the masters had been made on someone else's nickle, it was easy to produce more. I believe these became "proof of concept" for his later traction model line. I recall Bill being out at the Illinois Railway Museum in the very early seventies to gather measurements for the North Shore interurban that became his first traction offering, and the boxcars had been done several years earlier, perhaps in the late sixties. At any rate, at a time when MR articles were mentioning Cerro metal castings made in latex rubber molds, Clouser showed there were better materials.

And of course, there would be no cast resin models if it wasn't for Al Westerfield, who not only did extensive research on his prototypes in an era when accurate and complete data was hard to come by, but also developed a workable method of producing kits at a price that encouraged the market. Clouser 1/4" scale kits were nice, but they were pricey. By comparison, Al's kits were priced where the average modeler could actually believe that he could populate a layout with them. One thing that few mention is that before Al actually went into business, he basically published his whole methodology in the hobby press, in RMC, IIRC, in a series of articles in the late seventies.

While I was only producing resin kits for a couple years before moving on to other things, I would not have even known where to start without the knowledge of what these two individuals had already accomplished.

I should also mention Tom Madden, also a professional modelmaker, who lead the industry to its "second generation", consulting with and teaching several manufacturers the secrets of viable one piece resin bodies. 

I'm sure there are others who made significant contributions; these are the ones who stand out to me.

Dennis Storzek
 


Re: ARA/AAR Boxcar Modeling Clinic Link

Steve SANDIFER
 

Thanks very much.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 12:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] ARA/AAR Boxcar Modeling Clinic Link

 

Here is the link to my 2018 Clinic:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t7chfq1zavanvpw/AAAs4Mmg5OLHiR79M8nqDJ8qa?dl=0
It is for your personal use only, which includes sharing it with friends at club meeting for example. Please do not post it anywhere without my permission. The Spreadsheets are courtesy of Ed Hawkins.


Bill Welch

29341 - 29360 of 188615