Date   
Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Jon Miller
 

On 11/13/2018 3:50 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
John,

Go back and re-read my post.

Oops!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Benjamin Hom
 

John,

Go back and re-read my post.

1.  I was answering a question.
2.  I posted a link to search results for chalk marks of all scales, and mentioned that the only ones in stock were yellow ones.


Ben Hom


From: Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

On 11/13/2018 1:32 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
I checked Clover House, and couldn't find any on their website.
Ben,
    I just ordered some from Clover House.  After hunting for a while I did a search and they showed up.  Only problem is they only had yellow.  I did order a bunch of rejects to play with.
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Jon Miller
 

On 11/13/2018 1:32 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
I checked Clover House, and couldn't find any on their website.

Ben,

    I just ordered some from Clover House.  After hunting for a while I did a search and they showed up.  Only problem is they only had yellow.  I did order a bunch of rejects to play with.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Need B&O M-15k Youngstown door help

David
 

Does anyone have photos of an M-15k post-mid-40s with the Youngstown door?
RPC #9 implies (but doesn't quite state outright) that the Youngstown doors were part of the mid-'50s program to rebuild the M-15k's with new underframes.

David Thompson

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Robert Heninger
 

Thank you Steve. I guess UTLX doesn't work for Clark's tank car.

Clark, another possibility is a North American tank car, built by Pressed Steel car. Article by Richard Hendrickson in Ted's PRM, Volume 1:

http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/prototype-railroad-modeling-volume-one/

This kitbash used the Tichy underframe and IM 8k Type 27 tank.

Or, you could just sell the kit to one of the hoarders on the list!

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Tim O'Connor
 


Paint it generically - SHPX 20003, for example. And check out the trucks!

Tim O'Connor


I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Pr
opst

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Most Standard Oil seems to have gone in UTLX tank cars.  As has been said, UTLX certainly had some ACF Type 21 (P2K) 8000 gallon cars.  The only examples of ACF Type 27 (the IMRC) cars going to UTLX second hand were ten 10,000 gallon cars that came from Hartol Oil numbers 401-410 that became UTLX 70002-70011.  Sorry, not photos.  I have not seen any photos of 8000 gallon Type 27 cars in UTLX paint, either.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Oil companies for IM 8K tank

I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Bruce Smith
 

Fenton,

The short answer is no, not really. But since I have a few minutes, let me try the basics, which I have accumulated through “sitting at the knee” of our tank car experts, via this list, presentations and publications. There “big 3” in tank cars are AC&F, UTL and GAT. There are others, and to describe the nuances of those is beyond the scope of this missive.

Radial course tanks
Single rows of rivets between plates (pre 1917-ish) - for example the AC&F type 11 (1911 design), as modeled in HO by Sunset and F&C (who awkwardly called it a type 2, which it technically is, as an ARA type 2, but that isn’t very helpful!)
Double rows of rivets between plates (post 1917-ish)
Longitudinal course tanks arrive around 1920-21

Running boards
High running boards (pre 1911-ish) - e.g. AC&F type 8 (1908 design) and early type 11
Medium running boards - a spotting feature of Union tank car lines (UTL) type V (VanDyke) and type X cars
Low running boards - just about everybody else

Side sills
no side sills - spotting feature for General American Tank (GAT) - typically also had a diagonal on the end between the outside edge of the platform/running board and the bottom of the draft gear
C-channel sills, facing out - spotting feature for AC&F type 21 and 27 (1921 and 1927 designs), although not 100% unique.  Note that the IM AC&F type 27 is incorrect in this detail.
C-channel sills facing inward - spotting feature of the UTL X-3 series, as well as some earlier AC&F types

Domes/safeties
These are all over the place, but some basic generalities
prior to around 1920-21, safeties on elbows off the side of the dome
post 1920-21, safeties on the top of the dome
Similar dates for screw man-way versus safety man-way
The position of the safeties can be a give-away for some tank builders.

Note: dates are build dates.
Note: tanks and frames could be built by different companies
Note: classical “pattern” cars, such as a UTL X-3 could be built under contract by another company (e.g. AC&F)

Three books that are indispensable are:
Culotta - Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual, Volume 2

Kaminski - Tank Cars from American Car & Foundry, 1865-1955

Hile - UTLX Steam Era Tank Cars

If you can only afford one book, then get Ted’s reference manual as it covers almost all makes/models. 


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Nov 13, 2018, at 2:59 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

HO Tank Car Question: I don't know much about tank cars, so I was wondering if there is a resource that explains (in simple terms) the different frames, bodies and cars for a non-knowledgeable modeler like me.  I would love to know which frames work with which bodies, in a modeling sense.  I understand the info is out there but it has never been important enough to me to do the digging.  So is there a resource for guys like me e.g "Tank cars for Dummies"  ??
Thanking anyone in advance for their help.
Fenton Wells

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:13 PM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Fenton,
 
As luck would have it, I was actually able to lay my hands on my copy of Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 12.  Amazing, huh?  In addition to many photographs, it is loaded with a significant array of drawings, including plans, side and end elevations and sections.  I checked Amazon, but found only one and that was for the insane price of $75.00!  On eBay, however, I searched for “Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 12” and found two for about $10.00 plus four or five dollars for shipping. 
 
 
So, if 1922 to 1943 covers your era(s) . . .
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: O Fenton Wells
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:27 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Oil companies for IM 8K tank
 
Thanks Ralph, I'll check that out
Fenton
 
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 4:21 PM Ralph W. Brown <rbrown51@...> wrote:
Hi Fenton,
 
I haven’t dug out my copy to check, but I suspect John White’s The American Railroad Freight Car might be a good place to start looking.  Other strong possibilities that come to mind are the Car Builders’ Dictionaries and the Car Builders’ Cyclopedias as appropriate for your era(s) of interest.  The Newton K. Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedias contained reprints from those and other publications.  Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 12, for example, pertained to “Tank Cars 1922-1943.”
 
Hope that helps.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: O Fenton Wells
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:59 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Oil companies for IM 8K tank
 
HO Tank Car Question: I don't know much about tank cars, so I was wondering if there is a resource that explains (in simple terms) the different frames, bodies and cars for a non-knowledgeable modeler like me.  I would love to know which frames work with which bodies, in a modeling sense.  I understand the info is out there but it has never been important enough to me to do the digging.  So is there a resource for guys like me e.g "Tank cars for Dummies"  ??
Thanking anyone in advance for their help.
Fenton Wells
 
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:13 PM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

 
 
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
 
 
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Robert Heninger
 

Clark,

I think UTLX had some type 27 cars, probably secondhand, but I'll have to dig in my UTLX book to make sure. I know they had type 21s. Type 27s were also covered in an early RP Cyc, IIRC, which would help with other possible roadnames. I'd link to the website, which had an index as I recall, but it seems to have been taken down.

Fenton,

This is the best general reference on steam era tank cars:

http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/steam-era-freight-cars-reference-manual-volume-two/

This is a great book for UTLX tank cars:

http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/utlx-steam-era-tank-cars/

This book has some great detail shots of steam era tank cars, well worth the purchase, once Ted gets them back in stock:

http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/focus-on-freight-cars-volume-ten-other-freight-car-types/

And, for ACF built cars, this is indispensable:

http://signaturepress.com/kaminski/tank.html

I recommend all four references without reservation. They are all well worth the money. If I was only going to buy one, I'd buy Ted's Steam Era manual, only because it covers all manufacturers and lessors/owners.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND



Oil companies for IM 8K tank

David
 

Ted Culotta put together a nice field guide to steam-era tank cars here:
http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/steam-era-freight-cars-reference-manual-volume-two/

As for the IM 8k ACT Type 27, most of those went to SHPX, with some to GATX (mostly ex-Canton Tank Car) and a scattering to a few other owners. Having said that, the tank itself can be mounted on frames from Tichy (1923 SSC-built Gulf Oil), Tangent (early-mid 1920s General American Tank Car), or SC&F (1920s Standard Tank Car).

David Thompson

Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Benjamin Hom
 

Steve Kay wrote:
"It seems to me that chalk marks are the ideal subject for dry transfer type lettering.   I am a waterslide decal guy myself -- I feel more confident about being able to make adjustments to lettering after application, etc., but chalk marks are not usually straight or in a certain place, so being able to add them to a car after it is complete seems like a good thing.   I checked Clover House, and couldn't find any on their website.   Does anyone make these?"

You didn't look closely enough - they have them in multiple scales in white, yellow and black; however, the HO scale white and black sets look to be out of stock.  Root stock number is 9911.

You could get away with using some N or S scale markings for HO scale as these obviously varied in size depending on whomever was doing the marking.


Ben Hom

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Ralph, I'll check that out
Fenton

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 4:21 PM Ralph W. Brown <rbrown51@...> wrote:
Hi Fenton,
 
I haven’t dug out my copy to check, but I suspect John White’s The American Railroad Freight Car might be a good place to start looking.  Other strong possibilities that come to mind are the Car Builders’ Dictionaries and the Car Builders’ Cyclopedias as appropriate for your era(s) of interest.  The Newton K. Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedias contained reprints from those and other publications.  Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 12, for example, pertained to “Tank Cars 1922-1943.”
 
Hope that helps.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: O Fenton Wells
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:59 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Oil companies for IM 8K tank
 
HO Tank Car Question: I don't know much about tank cars, so I was wondering if there is a resource that explains (in simple terms) the different frames, bodies and cars for a non-knowledgeable modeler like me.  I would love to know which frames work with which bodies, in a modeling sense.  I understand the info is out there but it has never been important enough to me to do the digging.  So is there a resource for guys like me e.g "Tank cars for Dummies"  ??
Thanking anyone in advance for their help.
Fenton Wells
 
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:13 PM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

 
 
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Fenton,
 
I haven’t dug out my copy to check, but I suspect John White’s The American Railroad Freight Car might be a good place to start looking.  Other strong possibilities that come to mind are the Car Builders’ Dictionaries and the Car Builders’ Cyclopedias as appropriate for your era(s) of interest.  The Newton K. Gregg Train Shed Cyclopedias contained reprints from those and other publications.  Train Shed Cyclopedia No. 12, for example, pertained to “Tank Cars 1922-1943.”
 
Hope that helps.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: O Fenton Wells
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:59 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Oil companies for IM 8K tank
 
HO Tank Car Question: I don't know much about tank cars, so I was wondering if there is a resource that explains (in simple terms) the different frames, bodies and cars for a non-knowledgeable modeler like me.  I would love to know which frames work with which bodies, in a modeling sense.  I understand the info is out there but it has never been important enough to me to do the digging.  So is there a resource for guys like me e.g "Tank cars for Dummies"  ??
Thanking anyone in advance for their help.
Fenton Wells
 
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:13 PM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

 
 
--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

StephenK
 

It seems to me that chalk marks are the ideal subject for dry transfer type lettering.   I am a waterslide decal guy myself -- I feel more confident about being able to make adjustments to lettering after application, etc., but chalk marks are not usually straight  or in a certain place, so being able to add them to a car after it ti s complete seems like a good thing.   I checked Clover House, and couldn't find any on their website.   Does anyone make these?

Steve Kay

Re: CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Tony Thompson
 

Remember that identifying a branch as a car destination was exactly what route cards were used for. There may well have been no need for a chalk mark.
Tony Thompson 


On Nov 13, 2018, at 3:22 PM, John Barry <northbaylines@...> wrote:

Bill,

Unless you have a rich stash of photos of period photos from your branch or the classification yard that served it, Bob's comment about "plausible" and random applies as the majority of the marks would have been from someplace else and random hieroglyphics are in order.  OTH, if you are so fortunate to have that stash, or the recollections of a yard crew that built the train for your branch, you may be able to decipher that ONE mark that directed the car to your line, be it the schedule number (not necessarily the ETT train #), an alpha code, or distinct pattern.  

Even if you can't discern that pattern, it is reasonable to make a guess that if the 53 train serves your branch and the 52 train serves the branch in the other TT direction that you could plausibly mark all of the cars you operate on your branch with a fresh 53 in a consistent spot along with an assortment of older, more faded random marks.


 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: Bill Keene via Groups.Io <bill41@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:42 AM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] CHALK MARKS QUESTION #2

Hello Group,

I have begun to study chalk marks. Well ... actually just look more closely at them. The truth is that with few exceptions I have no idea what the chalk marks are trying to convey. 

Some might appear to be train numbers applied by a yard clerk to aid classifying a car to a specific train. Or perhaps they are track numbers? Or perhaps the marks denote something entirely else. Those that say to "hold" a car are understandable as are marks that explain or denote a bad order car. But the majority of marks are more or less a foreign language to me. 

Also, did the use of chalk marks change over time? That is, would the use or need for chalk marks change from the 1920s to the depression era, to the WWII era, to the post WWII era, etc?

With my past modeling, I have added chalk marks to my weathered models based simply on "looks". Now that I am modeling a specific stretch portion of a specific branch line, I am beginning to wonder about this random approach.

Any knowledge you can provide to this old dog modeler would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

O Fenton Wells
 

HO Tank Car Question: I don't know much about tank cars, so I was wondering if there is a resource that explains (in simple terms) the different frames, bodies and cars for a non-knowledgeable modeler like me.  I would love to know which frames work with which bodies, in a modeling sense.  I understand the info is out there but it has never been important enough to me to do the digging.  So is there a resource for guys like me e.g "Tank cars for Dummies"  ??
Thanking anyone in advance for their help.
Fenton Wells

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:13 PM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Clark,

Richard Hendrickson wrote an article published in the UNION PACIFIC MODELER, volume 4 (1998) on the Sinclair fleet. According to his article, most of the fleet was composed of GA Type 1917 cars in both 8K and 10K, the larger recently offered with Sinclair lettering by Tangent. Sinclair did have some 10K ACF Type 21 cars, including a few with insulating jackets, both offered by Life-Like models. Apparently they did not have any ACF Type 27s like the Intermountains.

Kind Regards,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 11/13/18 2:22 PM, Clark Propst wrote:
I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

Oil companies for IM 8K tank

Clark Propst
 

I have Sinclair, Mobil, DX, and Standard oil jobbers on my layout. I have an extra Intermountain 8K gal tank car that's excess. Any of those oil companies own anything like the IM car? I do have two Tichy frames if they'd help with a kitbash?
Thanks, Clark Propst

Re: SOO 136000

Dennis Storzek
 

I have nothing to add, Steve, other than I don't remember seeing the lowered panel, but wasn't looking for it, either. Then again, I was busy hanging on while trying to compose a shot with the camera with one hand, and as stated earlier in this discussion, the first seam doesn't show in the photo. I was somewhat surprised years later when I noticed that detail in the AAR drawing, but now have no way to check it out, as the car in Neenah is long gone.

I did mention further up the thread that at least the general arrangement drawing should be at the Pullman Library at IRM. the cars were  Lot 5534, and the tall cars were Lot 5536. IRM isn't that expensive for a single drawing, and then you'll know for sure.

Dennis Storzek