Date   

Re: Gulf tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill

I think this is one.



From an Aug. 22, 2010 post by Richard H. a reminder of how to use the Tichy four-course tank: "What the Gould/Tichy tank car model CAN be used for, with some relatively easy modifications, is to represent the "war emergency" USG-A class tank cars built by AC&F for the Army Quartermaster Corps and for Shippers Car Line during Wolrd War II, as well as for some cars of the same design built in Canada for Canadian General Transit; the "war emergency" design essentially consisted of USRA-design tanks on 1940s AC&F standard underframes. In the past, there have been a couple of magazine articles by myself and by Russ Pinchbeck on making this conversion."

Are there any prototype photos of these War Emergency tank cars?

Bill Welch

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Gulf tank cars

Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 11/20/2018 8:27 AM, Dave Parker via Groups.Io wrote:
As Ted noted in the SEFCRM, Standard Steel was a pretty minor player in the building of tank cars, so it would make some sense that they would use a handy, existing frame design rather than designing one from scratch.

    So are we coming to the conclusion that the Gould/Tichy tank is "correct" if only we could find a picture and the correct decals. 

    And based on using the frame (we would call it a USRA design) as the tank didn't really matter all that much:-)!   

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Gulf tank cars

Dave Parker
 

I have a couple of thoughts to share.

I find Steve's narrative concerning the formation of FTX to be quite intriguing (and not TMI),  It seems as if it could be characterized as a USRA "spin-off" that is not covered in the history of the mainstream USRA activities (such as the Lane article).  After all, the recipients (willing and otherwise) of the 100,000 cars ordered by the USRA were all railroads.  It appears that FTX was set up to function as another tank-car leasing company, akin to UTLX and others.

I agree with Tim that part of the issue here is semantics.  Returning to the SSCC-built Gulf cars, I think a case can be made that they follow the USRA design.  Tank cars of this era are defined mostly based on the frame, both by their builders and by us as freight-car historians.  Ed Kaminski reminds us in his ACF tank-car book that the Type 21 classification was based on the frame; what rode on top of it could vary based on customer preference.  If you flip through Ted's SEFCRM vol 2, and look at the groups of cars built by GATC, Pennsylvania, Standard Tank, etc., there is, for a given builder, a good deal of variation in dome geometry, valve placement, tank tie-downs, dome platforms, etc.  What is unique to each builder is the frame, with the tank saddles often being the most prominent spotting feature.  I don't think even the basic tank construction was uniform; the early 1920s was the period of transition from (mostly) radial to longitudinal courses, and the evidence suggests that some builders were concurrently building both.

So, assuming that SSCC built the Gulf cars on a frame that followed the USRA drawings MOL to a "T", I would be fine with calling it a "USRA-design" car, at least as a shorthand.  YMMV as always.

BTW, in rereading the Lane article I noticed that the president of Standard Steel (J. M. Hansen) was one of five members of the USRA car-design committee.  As Ted noted in the SEFCRM, Standard Steel was a pretty minor player in the building of tank cars, so it would make some sense that they would use a handy, existing frame design rather than designing one from scratch.  Maybe just a coincidence, but maybe not.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: Gulf tank cars

brianleppert@att.net
 

Let's try again


Re: Gulf tank cars

brianleppert@att.net
 

Bill, I think an image is attached.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: Gulf tank cars

Bill Welch
 

From an Aug. 22, 2010 post by Richard H. a reminder of how to use the Tichy four-course tank: "What the Gould/Tichy tank car model CAN be used for, with some relatively easy modifications, is to represent the "war emergency" USG-A class tank cars built by AC&F for the Army Quartermaster Corps and for Shippers Car Line during Wolrd War II, as well as for some cars of the same design built in Canada for Canadian General Transit; the "war emergency" design essentially consisted of USRA-design tanks on 1940s AC&F standard underframes. In the past, there have been a couple of magazine articles by myself and by Russ Pinchbeck on making this conversion."

Are there any prototype photos of these War Emergency tank cars?

Bill Welch


Re: Gulf tank cars

Eric Hansmann
 

Part of FTX 8223 can be seen in the lower right corner of this April 1926 image. This is a companion image to the one I sent the other day with the boxcars. The photo is documenting the removal of the old Millvale Street Bridge before a new one is built. The facilities in the foreground are a Gulf Refining distribution warehouse.

 

After the page opens, click on the image and look for four buttons in the upper left corner of the photo. Click on the right button to make the image full screen so you can zoom in on the details.

 

https://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt%3A715.261175.CP

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Gulf tank cars

 

Let's see if I can make an explanation that doesn't sound too much like weasel wording.

 

The pictures from the Indiana Historical Society of the Lincoln Oil cars showed up pretty late in my research process.  It may have been Brian, or someone else on the Steam Era Freight Car list that first pointed out FTX 10073 sometime earlier this year.  However, I had no information that would indicate that FTX 10073 ever became an LINX or UTLX car.  In fact, the UTLX records showed that they purchased only 8000 gallon cars from Lincoln Oil.  But the link to FTX 10073 lead to other photos from that site, including the other on on page 125, which shows what UTLX did buy.

 

However, when I searched on the Federal Tank Line, I ran across the attached bond listing

 

 

This states that the Federal Tank Line was incorporated in 1919 for the purpose of acquiring 746 tank cars constructed for and purchased by the US Government in 1918 and 1919 and then leasing them out.

 

I did not fully intend to say that FTX 10073 was a USRA tank car, per se.  The underframe does match the USRA design, while the tank does not.  It certainly would be interesting to see what some of the other cars in the fleet looked like.

 

They certainly also had some ARA Class V tank cars, as is shown in this ORER listing from 1926

 

 

 

The illustration of FTX also appears to be of the USRA style underframe.  The Federal Tank Line listing was gone from the ORER by 1930.

 

We, Ted, Dave Parker and I, discussed the interrelationships between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company, Pennsylvania Iron Works and General American, as the car was, apparently built in Warren, Ohio by General American, but it does not use their Type 17 underframe design.  The tank matches the GATX Type 17 ten thousand gallon tank (think Tangent car.)

 

An interesting kitbash could be pairing the Tangent tank with the Tichy underframe.  If we only knew where the FTX cars cars went....

 

So, is it a USRA car?  The answer is - sort of...

 

At least this explains my statement about Federal Tank leasing USRA tank cars.  At least they were originally owned by the government and some used a USRA underframe design.

 

Probably more information than most of you need.

 

Steve Hile

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Gulf tank cars


Tony, it sounds kinda like we're playing with semantics.

Fact: there was a design for a tank car, and Gould followed it.

This FTX 10073 might be a tank car that follows that design.

If that is TRUE, then we must admit that at least one tank car was built
that can be modeled correctly with the Gould kit.

Whether or not this design was PROPOSED or SUBMITTED to USRA is something
of a moot point, since we KNOW (and have said for years) that no tank cars
were built for the USRA.

Disclaimer: I do not have the UTLX book so I have no knowledge of page 125.

Tim O'Connor




Brian Leppert wrote:


Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.


    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them.
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Gulf tank cars

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Garth,


When did the white fleet of DOWX tank cars operate? . . . late-1960s? This is a Gene Huddleston slide that I am trying to bracket dating on.


Al

On November 20, 2018 at 5:47 AM Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:

Steve,

Your research is quite interesting. Please allow me to point out some possibilities, all complete speculation on my part.

(a)
Sticking railroads with tank cars might not have worked well for the USRA, as most tanks were operated as privately-owned fleets tailored to the owners' needs.

(b) The Federal Tank Line cars in question might have been first operated by some other agency of the US Government, maybe the Army itself, and were never intended for distribution to railroads by the USRA. If so, they should show up some place in the ORERs of the time, unless they were only used in "on-base" service. If the latter, there might be photos and other documentation in War Department archives (training documents or operating/loading manuals, for example; such materials still exist for the WWII era).

(c) The cars might not have actually been used before WWI ended, but stored for some purpose that never came to pass because of the Armistice. One possibility could have been future use on US Army-operated railroads in Europe. Then they were sold off to FTL as "war surplus".

The documentation on these cars might have been lost long ago. Likely nobody thought it would be of interest to historians a hundred years later, and many such government documents were trashed. Or it might be in some forgotten file folder
totally unconnected with the USRA in the National Archives.

I find the 3500-gallon tanks intriguing. On wonders what such small tanks carried. Maybe it was some especially dense liquid chemical, like later cars used in tetra ethyl service. They might not have even looked like other tank cars.

I love a mystery. I love solutions even more.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 11/20/18 1:05 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Let's see if I can make an explanation that doesn't sound too much like weasel wording.
 
The pictures from the Indiana Historical Society of the Lincoln Oil cars showed up pretty late in my research process.  It may have been Brian, or someone else on the Steam Era Freight Car list that first pointed out FTX 10073 sometime earlier this year.  However, I had no information that would indicate that FTX 10073 ever became an LINX or UTLX car.  In fact, the UTLX records showed that they purchased only 8000 gallon cars from Lincoln Oil.  But the link to FTX 10073 lead to other photos from that site, including the other on on page 125, which shows what UTLX did buy.
 
However, when I searched on the Federal Tank Line, I ran across the attached bond listing
 
 
This states that the Federal Tank Line was incorporated in 1919 for the purpose of acquiring 746 tank cars constructed for and purchased by the US Government in 1918 and 1919 and then leasing them out.
 
I did not fully intend to say that FTX 10073 was a USRA tank car, per se.  The underframe does match the USRA design, while the tank does not.  It certainly would be interesting to see what some of the other cars in the fleet looked like.
 
They certainly also had some ARA Class V tank cars, as is shown in this ORER listing from 1926
 
 
 
The illustration of FTX also appears to be of the USRA style underframe.  The Federal Tank Line listing was gone from the ORER by 1930.
 
We, Ted, Dave Parker and I, discussed the interrelationships between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company, Pennsylvania Iron Works and General American, as the car was, apparently built in Warren, Ohio by General American, but it does not use their Type 17 underframe design.  The tank matches the GATX Type 17 ten thousand gallon tank (think Tangent car.)
 
An interesting kitbash could be pairing the Tangent tank with the Tichy underframe.  If we only knew where the FTX cars cars went....
 
So, is it a USRA car?  The answer is - sort of...
 
At least this explains my statement about Federal Tank leasing USRA tank cars.  At least they were originally owned by the government and some used a USRA underframe design.
 
Probably more information than most of you need.
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Gulf tank cars


Tony, it sounds kinda like we're playing with semantics.

Fact: there was a design for a tank car, and Gould followed it.

This FTX 10073 might be a tank car that follows that design.

If that is TRUE, then we must admit that at least one tank car was built
that can be modeled correctly with the Gould kit.

Whether or not this design was PROPOSED or SUBMITTED to USRA is something
of a moot point, since we KNOW (and have said for years) that no tank cars
were built for the USRA.

Disclaimer: I do not have the UTLX book so I have no knowledge of page 125.

Tim O'Connor



Brian Leppert wrote:

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them.
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


 


 


Gulf tank cars

David
 

I did not fully intend to say that FTX 10073 was a USRA tank car, per se.  The underframe does match the USRA design, while the tank does not.

It should be noted that the drawings for the USRA tank designs do show 5 radial courses as an alternate construction.

David Thompson


Re: Gulf tank cars

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Steve,

Your research is quite interesting. Please allow me to point out some possibilities, all complete speculation on my part.

(a)
Sticking railroads with tank cars might not have worked well for the USRA, as most tanks were operated as privately-owned fleets tailored to the owners' needs.

(b) The Federal Tank Line cars in question might have been first operated by some other agency of the US Government, maybe the Army itself, and were never intended for distribution to railroads by the USRA. If so, they should show up some place in the ORERs of the time, unless they were only used in "on-base" service. If the latter, there might be photos and other documentation in War Department archives (training documents or operating/loading manuals, for example; such materials still exist for the WWII era).

(c) The cars might not have actually been used before WWI ended, but stored for some purpose that never came to pass because of the Armistice. One possibility could have been future use on US Army-operated railroads in Europe. Then they were sold off to FTL as "war surplus".

The documentation on these cars might have been lost long ago. Likely nobody thought it would be of interest to historians a hundred years later, and many such government documents were trashed. Or it might be in some forgotten file folder
totally unconnected with the USRA in the National Archives.

I find the 3500-gallon tanks intriguing. On wonders what such small tanks carried. Maybe it was some especially dense liquid chemical, like later cars used in tetra ethyl service. They might not have even looked like other tank cars.

I love a mystery. I love solutions even more.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 11/20/18 1:05 AM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:
Let's see if I can make an explanation that doesn't sound too much like weasel wording.
 
The pictures from the Indiana Historical Society of the Lincoln Oil cars showed up pretty late in my research process.  It may have been Brian, or someone else on the Steam Era Freight Car list that first pointed out FTX 10073 sometime earlier this year.  However, I had no information that would indicate that FTX 10073 ever became an LINX or UTLX car.  In fact, the UTLX records showed that they purchased only 8000 gallon cars from Lincoln Oil.  But the link to FTX 10073 lead to other photos from that site, including the other on on page 125, which shows what UTLX did buy.
 
However, when I searched on the Federal Tank Line, I ran across the attached bond listing
 
 
This states that the Federal Tank Line was incorporated in 1919 for the purpose of acquiring 746 tank cars constructed for and purchased by the US Government in 1918 and 1919 and then leasing them out.
 
I did not fully intend to say that FTX 10073 was a USRA tank car, per se.  The underframe does match the USRA design, while the tank does not.  It certainly would be interesting to see what some of the other cars in the fleet looked like.
 
They certainly also had some ARA Class V tank cars, as is shown in this ORER listing from 1926
 
 
 
The illustration of FTX also appears to be of the USRA style underframe.  The Federal Tank Line listing was gone from the ORER by 1930.
 
We, Ted, Dave Parker and I, discussed the interrelationships between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company, Pennsylvania Iron Works and General American, as the car was, apparently built in Warren, Ohio by General American, but it does not use their Type 17 underframe design.  The tank matches the GATX Type 17 ten thousand gallon tank (think Tangent car.)
 
An interesting kitbash could be pairing the Tangent tank with the Tichy underframe.  If we only knew where the FTX cars cars went....
 
So, is it a USRA car?  The answer is - sort of...
 
At least this explains my statement about Federal Tank leasing USRA tank cars.  At least they were originally owned by the government and some used a USRA underframe design.
 
Probably more information than most of you need.
 
Steve Hile


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Gulf tank cars


Tony, it sounds kinda like we're playing with semantics.

Fact: there was a design for a tank car, and Gould followed it.

This FTX 10073 might be a tank car that follows that design.

If that is TRUE, then we must admit that at least one tank car was built
that can be modeled correctly with the Gould kit.

Whether or not this design was PROPOSED or SUBMITTED to USRA is something
of a moot point, since we KNOW (and have said for years) that no tank cars
were built for the USRA.

Disclaimer: I do not have the UTLX book so I have no knowledge of page 125.

Tim O'Connor



Brian Leppert wrote:

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them.
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Gulf tank cars

Jim Gates
 

According to GATX: a history of the General American Transportation Corporation, General American purchased Federal Tank Car in 1926. 740 tank cars came with the deal.

Jim Gates

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 11/20/18, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@mindspring.com> wrote:

An interesting kitbash could be pairing the Tangent tank with the Tichy underframe.  If we only knew where the FTX cars cars went....


Re: Gulf tank cars

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Let's see if I can make an explanation that doesn't sound too much like weasel wording.
 
The pictures from the Indiana Historical Society of the Lincoln Oil cars showed up pretty late in my research process.  It may have been Brian, or someone else on the Steam Era Freight Car list that first pointed out FTX 10073 sometime earlier this year.  However, I had no information that would indicate that FTX 10073 ever became an LINX or UTLX car.  In fact, the UTLX records showed that they purchased only 8000 gallon cars from Lincoln Oil.  But the link to FTX 10073 lead to other photos from that site, including the other on on page 125, which shows what UTLX did buy.
 
However, when I searched on the Federal Tank Line, I ran across the attached bond listing
 
 
This states that the Federal Tank Line was incorporated in 1919 for the purpose of acquiring 746 tank cars constructed for and purchased by the US Government in 1918 and 1919 and then leasing them out.
 
I did not fully intend to say that FTX 10073 was a USRA tank car, per se.  The underframe does match the USRA design, while the tank does not.  It certainly would be interesting to see what some of the other cars in the fleet looked like.
 
They certainly also had some ARA Class V tank cars, as is shown in this ORER listing from 1926
 
 
 
The illustration of FTX also appears to be of the USRA style underframe.  The Federal Tank Line listing was gone from the ORER by 1930.
 
We, Ted, Dave Parker and I, discussed the interrelationships between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company, Pennsylvania Iron Works and General American, as the car was, apparently built in Warren, Ohio by General American, but it does not use their Type 17 underframe design.  The tank matches the GATX Type 17 ten thousand gallon tank (think Tangent car.)
 
An interesting kitbash could be pairing the Tangent tank with the Tichy underframe.  If we only knew where the FTX cars cars went....
 
So, is it a USRA car?  The answer is - sort of...
 
At least this explains my statement about Federal Tank leasing USRA tank cars.  At least they were originally owned by the government and some used a USRA underframe design.
 
Probably more information than most of you need.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Gulf tank cars


Tony, it sounds kinda like we're playing with semantics.

Fact: there was a design for a tank car, and Gould followed it.

This FTX 10073 might be a tank car that follows that design.

If that is TRUE, then we must admit that at least one tank car was built
that can be modeled correctly with the Gould kit.

Whether or not this design was PROPOSED or SUBMITTED to USRA is something
of a moot point, since we KNOW (and have said for years) that no tank cars
were built for the USRA.

Disclaimer: I do not have the UTLX book so I have no knowledge of page 125.

Tim O'Connor



Brian Leppert wrote:

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them.
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Reefer ID

John Barry
 

Thank you!

 
John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: rwitt_2000 via Groups.Io <rwitt_2000@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefer ID

With some sharping the initials do appear to be "NRC".

Bob Witt



Re: Gulf tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 


Tony, it sounds kinda like we're playing with semantics.

Fact: there was a design for a tank car, and Gould followed it.

This FTX 10073 might be a tank car that follows that design.

If that is TRUE, then we must admit that at least one tank car was built
that can be modeled correctly with the Gould kit.

Whether or not this design was PROPOSED or SUBMITTED to USRA is something
of a moot point, since we KNOW (and have said for years) that no tank cars
were built for the USRA.

Disclaimer: I do not have the UTLX book so I have no knowledge of page 125.

Tim O'Connor



Brian Leppert wrote:

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them.
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson 

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Gulf tank cars

Tony Thompson
 

Brian Leppert wrote:

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

    I do already have Steve's book. I would respond that there are several scholarly articles available in the literature which provide excruciating detail from government records on ALL cars ordered by and for the USRA. There is not a single tank car listed in any of them. 
       There were a number of car designs created for the USRA, but only five of them received USRA specification numbers. The tank car is not among them. This and many additional details are readily accessible in sources such as James Lane's article in _Railroad History_ no. 128. That "tank cars were built as part of the war effort," I would not doubt, but that does NOT mean that any such cars followed the USRA design, much less that they were ordered by USRA.
         Steve's assertion that some tank cars were built for USRA has no research foundation that I know of, but I would be intrigued to know more. What, exactly, is the basis of this assertion?

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: Gulf tank cars

Tom Madden
 

Isn't that what Frank did and I cast several hundred of??  A replacement NATX tank for the Speedwitch kit which Ted included in his later runs of that kit? Or am I missing something.....

Tom Madden


Re: Gulf tank cars

brianleppert@att.net
 

Tony,

Get a copy of Steve Hile's new UTLX book and look at page 125 for the photo of FTX 10073 and read the caption on the opposite page.  I'll argue that's a tank car BUILT to the USRA drawings FOR the USRA.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: Gulf tank cars

Bill Welch
 

I am confused by this discussion, mainly the dimensional discussion. After Richard H's article several years ago shortening the IM tank to fit the Tichy/Gould underframe to model a Pressed Steel tank car for a North American tank car model, Ted Culotta and I put our heads together to create a kit for these cars using a different method, grafting two Tichy U/F's together to get the prototype's correct length because by Richard's admission his technique created a model that was slightly too short. This compromise did not really bother me but I questioned my ability to shorten the tank with two true 90° cuts on each end, whereas I was sure even if was not pretty I could graft the underframes together. Now my good friend Brian is saying there is not much dimensional difference to fit the same tank to the same underframe. Now I am wondering/thinking that the Pressed Steel underframe is slightly longer than the Standard Steel underframe. Is it that simple?

BTW getting the cast-on bands is not a big deal most easily done with a single edge razor blade held at a very low angle followed with sanding and polishing w/600 and 1200 grit sand paper. A spare tank provides replacement rivets where the band is whittled off. It sounds like all that is needed is a nice pattern to be created for the 8K tank and copied in resin and decals.

Bill Welch


Re: AM I LOSING IT?

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

Thanks Ben and others.  Glad you appreciate humor Ben.

Bill



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: Gulf tank cars

Tony Thompson
 

Brian Leppert wrote:

I wonder if Standard Steel Car Co. built any of the real tank cars for USRA?

   Of course, NO ONE built any tank cars for the USRA . . .

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





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