Date   

Re: Decals for SHPX

Richard Townsend
 


Without having that article in front of me, it is hard to answer. Champ HT-71 is (was) for white SHPX lettering. Microscale 87-236 has some black SHPX lettering but it might be too recent. I suggest you look at various tank car decal sets for private shippers and see if they are SHPX leases and have SHPX reporting marks even though they are nominally for (i'm making this up) Townsend Oil Company.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: James SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...>
To: Steam Freight Car <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Nov 25, 2018 7:34 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Decals for SHPX

I have built and painted the tank car that is similar to the Tichy car detailed by Richard in the Railmodel Journal October 1990. I can’t find SHPX decals. Anyone know where to get some?
 
 
J. Stephen Sandifer
 


Decals for SHPX

Steve SANDIFER
 

I have built and painted the tank car that is similar to the Tichy car detailed by Richard in the Railmodel Journal October 1990. I can’t find SHPX decals. Anyone know where to get some?

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: Reefers for frozen fish.

James McDonald
 

Hello Scott and list,

You didn’t say where your layout was set, which might have some bearing on the cars used, as Garth suggested.

Despite not being able to hold temperatures at 0˚F or below, ice refrigerator cars would have been the dominant type of car used for frozen fish in 1950. Mechanicals were rather rare. The frozen food industry asked for any refrigerator cars they could get with extra thick insulation, because for a long time the issue was largely seen to be a matter of not enough insulation instead of insufficient refrigerant. The available number of such heavily insulated cars never seemed to match the needs of shippers, so it seems that quite a number of frozen foods loads must have gotten shipped in ordinary fan cars, much to the displeasure of the consignees, depending on the product.

“Frozen” was a bit of judgement call in the industry, with a differing bodies recommending different temperatures for different foods and with different amounts of “softening” being acceptable during transit. As Tony noted, it was frozen concentrated orange juice (FCOJ) that began to bring about the change to mechanical refrigerators. To taste right FCOJ had to be kept at temperatures below 0˚F. Other frozen foods were a bit more tolerant to variations in temperature, but FCOJ and fish were among those that were not. Money talks, though, and with a 37,740 percent increase in FCOJ sales between 1945 and 1952, the product and its temperature needs was worthy of attention from carriers, especially when the producers were displeased and were shifting loads to trucks in droves.

FGE ordered 11 mechanical refrigerators in 1948, predominantly because of the growth in FCOJ originating in Florida after 1945. They used these 11 cars to try out 9 different mechanical cooling systems. In the period between 1948 and 1950 FGE ordered 165 mechanical cars. They still were a tiny fraction of the cars “suitable” (according to the frozen food industry) for frozen foods. Sources differ on that number, but in either case the number of mechanicals was less than 1% of cars deemed “suitable” for frozen foods in 1953. By 1953 FGE had 175 mechanicals in service, all but 12 of them dedicated to frozen food shipping.

Things didn’t begin to change all that much until around 1955. Not only had trucks begun to dominate frozen food traffic by this time, but in 1955 the railroad industry began for the first time to publicly acknowledge the insufficiency of ice and salt for frozen food shipment. By the end of 1955 a reported 2,100 mechanical refrigerators had been brought into service nationwide.

In terms of frozen fish movements, the industry tends to lump them in under a general category of “seafood” and in 1950 the ICC didn’t appear to treat frozen fish any different than fresh in its stats, so it’s a little hard to extract an exact number of frozen fish movements. ICC records for 1950 show that a total of 8,763 carloads of "Seafood NOS" (fresh and frozen) were originated and terminated, or 190,303 tons. In 1950 there were 66,500 tons of frozen seafood “produced” by the frozen food industry, of which about 30% moved by truck in 1950, leaving 46,500 tons of frozen seafood for railroads and other modes—not really a huge amount when divided by 365 and split into carloads.

There’s been mention a couple of times in this thread about fish sticks. These were introduced in 1953 by General Foods/Birds Eye; something invented to deal with the fact that mechanized trawler ships were netting fish and freezing them at sea into giant blocks. As fish doesn’t thaw and refreeze well, the processors cut these fish blocks into “portions” and “sticks,” breaded them, and then sought to create a market for them, primarily through institutional sales (schools, etc.). Although packaging was a changing subject itself, fish in the late 1940s and early 1950s was more often sold in fiberboard boxes and was often pre-filleted so as to avoid any air pockets inside the cut of fish that might introduce bacteria. Trays, as we now tend to associate with frozen meals, were around by 1950, but didn’t really begin to achieve their icon position in American dining until the mid-1950s.

I would recommend seeing if your local library has (or can get you) back issues of a frozen food trade periodical called “Quick Frozen Foods” from your year of interest. Not only will it give you a good breakdown of what was on the minds of that industry at the time, the issues often contain useful statistics and news items. The editors of that time were hyper-aware of the insufficiency of their transportation solutions so there frequent articles about railroad developments. Don’t overlook the ads as well, since these also give great insights into the industry that are useful for modeling.

All the best,

James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD.


Re: Painting handles used to be Two Questions About Paint Primers

roblmclear
 

Sorry guys the photo's were too large to get posted, here they are resized.

Rob McLear
Aussie


Re: Painting handles used to be Two Questions About Paint Primers

roblmclear
 

Here is another approach, I have used these a lot and it is a sturdy platform.   The uprights are soldered to the square bottom pieces and one end of the tube is soldered to one of the square support bases as well,  the other end is left free so that cars of differing lengths can use the jig.   I have painted 36', 40' ,50' freight cars and full length passenger cars on one of these.   Didn't take that long to make and was not that expensive for the materials, they only thing I changed when I made the second one was to use a harder bearing silver solder, had trouble with the first one until I went back and did that to it as well.

Regards to all
Rob McLear
Aussie


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (Government Document)

Peter Ness
 

Hi Bob,

 

Many thanks for the link. For my period, this is very useful information.  Note that by changing the three-digit leaflet number I was also able to access the other leaflets in the series.

 

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefers for frozen fish. (Government Document)

 

I found the original link: https://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/legacy-pdfs/leaflet431.pdf

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Two Questions About Paint Primers

Randy Hammill
 

Wow, I literally just saw almost those exact holders at my buddy Pete’s earlier this week. He said they were from an article back in the day. He has slots he cut in the horizontal pieces with wingnuts to adjust them instead of the pipe. He has pieces of 2”x4” that he cut slots in with a table saw with a circle cut out with a hole saw in the middle to widen it for the wing it so he can stand them up. 

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954  | https//:blog.newbritainstation.com


Re: Reefers for frozen fish.

Peter Ness
 

Hi Scott,

 

Keep in mind my response is based on East Coast practices and also about 1959, not 1950.

 

Having said that, I think that frozen fish in 1950 would not be very common, similar to frozen beef. It was probably available but I believe most product was either shipped fresh or processed very quickly as described below.

 

To my knowledge, most if not all fish was processed by facilities at the docks. Shellfish was either iced and packed in crates or shucked for further processing (canning, etc.)

 

Fresh fish was cleaned and iced in crates and loaded into iced reefers (not sure how many mechanical reefers were I service in 1950, but unless there were many they would probably not be used for this dedicated service (see below).

 

I recall seeing these operations at Commercial Street wharves in Boston on the New Haven in South Boston Yard.  Reefers were usually dedicated in service due to the stench (go catch a half dozen fish – fresh or salt water – and throw them in the cooler as you gut them, then open the cooler when you get home…), and the New Haven ran one train known as the Fish Train that departed Boston very early a.m. as an express freight to New York City. I believe there was also a similar train that ran at night.  Even in the period after this group I recall seeing wood reefers, mostly FGEX, but I recall SFRD and BREX if they were also fish service and needed to be returned. I don’t recall seeing PFE, MDT or ART reefers at the Boston fish piers, but that does not mean they weren’t used, only that I do not recall seeing them. I know from Boston some fish was shipped as far West as Chicago, beyond that I don’t know. It’s most likely shipments further West were transferred by car float to the PRR. There was an icing facility at the New Haven Maybrook yard, but I am not certain when use stopped. I suppose dit’s possible fish was also shipped via LNE, L&HR, Erie or DL&W connections further West, but this would have been a longer route on the NH. In the 1950’s most commercial fish from Boston was whitefish – cod, haddock, pollack. I am not sure if bluefish or striped bass were shipped commercially by rail or only shipped locally by truck in New England and New York.

 

Fish parts, fish oils, were at least semi-processed in the same area as the fish processing prior to shipment.  Fish parts were used in products ranging from animal foods to fertilizers and cosmetics. Fish oils were used in both food and pharmaceutical (medicinal back then) products. I have not researched how these products were shipped.

 

To my knowledge, even in 1959, most fish was shipped to markets and sold to grocery (including fish markets) and restaurant (including hotel) businesses. Very little was commercially frozen to my knowledge.

 

The processing plants in Boston were brick buildings.  One time when researching on line I came across photos of fish processing in Boston, but since I will not model the interior operations I did not save the photos to file.  You may have some luck researching operations in your region.  I know Cryovac films and commercial freezing were around by at least the mid-1950’s, but I don’t recall seeing frozen fish on my dinner plate until Swanson TV dinners, and I don’t recall the year offhand. Fish sticks in our house came after TV dinners. My Dad had a small boat and the fish on our house was mostly what we caught down the Cape and brought home.  Stews and chowders were either canned or homemade (but using canned clams).

 

At least through the mid-‘60’s supermarkets in my area of MA had racks of refrigerated beef behind the meat counter and a lobster tank (sometimes with a few live fish) and iced fish in the open cases of the fish section. The frozen food freezer contained vegetables and TV dinners and entrees as I recall.

 

That’s my experience and research. I am interested to learn how fish was managed in other regions and if others can confirm cross-continent shipments and if fish was shipped frozen to any great extent.

 

None of this is to say there was not frozen fish shipped by rail in 1950 and I too, like the looks of the R.J. Frost building and would like to find a use for it on my layout!

 

Peter Ness

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2018 8:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Reefers for frozen fish.

 

I have a small switching layout and want to add a frozen fish wholesaler.  Probably use the Walthers Cornerstone R.J. Frost building.  I model 1950.  What would be some good frozen fish reefers?  I am thinking the SFRD RR50 (Athearn) for some west coast fish.  A CP or CN 8 hatch reefer (Funaro) for Canadian fish.  Did PFE Super Giants move any fish?  I have a Sunshine kit of it I bought from Richard.  What would come out of the Seattle area as I assume they shipped out a lot of fish.  Not very familiar with NP reefers or MDT or ART if they hauled much fish.  Lastly are there any available BREX cars for frozen fish in resin or plastic?

Thanks
Scott McDonald


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (Government Document)

Scott
 

Thats a really interesting read.  The explanation of the Silica Gel system was interesting.  I can see why they gave up on that and converted them to end bunker cars.

Scott McDonald


Re: On the Workbench

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Paul,
 
Very nicely done.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Paul Bizier
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 4:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] On the Workbench
 
To all who helped me with the question re: the appropriate trucks for the GN box, thank you - that car should hit the paint shop well before Cocoa.  In the meantime, here's the SAL vent box V10 that just came out of the paint shop - the main body of the car has gloss coat for decaling, so that's the reason for the tonal difference between the doors and the main body...

The Wabash car next to it is a Sunshine rebuilt USRA... amazing the difference in height between the two cars.

Paul Bizier


On the Workbench

Paul Bizier
 

To all who helped me with the question re: the appropriate trucks for the GN box, thank you - that car should hit the paint shop well before Cocoa.  In the meantime, here's the SAL vent box V10 that just came out of the paint shop - the main body of the car has gloss coat for decaling, so that's the reason for the tonal difference between the doors and the main body...

The Wabash car next to it is a Sunshine rebuilt USRA... amazing the difference in height between the two cars.

Paul Bizier


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (Government Document)

Bob Chaparro
 

I found the original link: https://spo.nmfs.noaa.gov/sites/default/files/legacy-pdfs/leaflet431.pdf

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Reefers for frozen fish.

Ralph W. Brown
 

Jim, et al.,
 
Regarding the motive for shipping salmon from the west coast to the east, there is a difference between Atlantic salmon and Pacific salmon with many folks preferring Pacific salmon, especially King and Sockeye salmon.  (I lived in Alaska for four years and I’m partial to Coho or Silver salmon myself.)  The Pacific salmon fishery is and has been much larger than the Atlantic salmon fishery, which declined significantly over the 19th and 20th centuries until the commercial salmon fishery was closed in the US in 1948.  The Atlantic salmon is listed as an endangered and protected species.  All Atlantic salmon sold in the US today is farm raised, and that is a relatively recent development.
 
Thus there has long been an east coast demand for Pacific salmon, and the need for rolling stock to meet that demand.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: np328
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2018 5:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reefers for frozen fish.
 
       Scott, you are very safe in running at least one NP wooden reefer with fish.
I have seen in my research carloads moving in our (I model 1953) time frame. This traffic was salmon that moved from Hoquiam / Aberdeen WA. to Chicago and often on the east coast.  I do recall seeing at least one car load moving from Hoquiam WA to Newport News, VA.           A longer route would take some planning and why transport salmon from one coast to the other, I have no answer for.

         As I said above, this should be an older car because paperwork I have states that "Fish service is where reefers go to die. Once used for fish they are virtually unusable for any other commodity!"
That per an NP railway officer berating a regional traffic clerk who used a newer reefer.  
        However for all that I have seen, heed Tony's words above. You say "frozen fish" and there were some process fisheries out on the western Washington coast starting in the 30's, however I do not recall the exact names, they were pretty commonly seen in the supermarket growing up. Names as a child I associate with frozen fish sticks. I do not eat fish and whenever I saw these in the fridge as a child the next move was to check if there was sufficient peanut butter to carry me through.                                                                                                                                                                             Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN  

And yes, a multi-hatch reefer from Canada.
     In the NP Rwy files at the Minnesota Historical Society is an extensive file with information on the testing of one of these multi-hatched reefers, in addition to the routing and shipping of fish from Canada down through Duluth via the DW&P then down to Chicago and points east. I recall pouring over it decades ago finding it really very interesting and then telling myself to concentrate on the subject at hand and not get off on a tangential interest. ( AS finding that file was.)  I need to revisit that file someday.            


Re: Gulf tank cars

Clark Propst
 

There’s been a lot of talk on this list about Gulf and NATX tank cars. I printed out photos of both, I’m no tank car aficionado so I’m doing what I’ll call a hybrid, close to both, but neither. Using parts from Tichy and Intermountain. Car was painted this morning after taking the attached photos. After airbrushing on Scalecoat black I carried the car from my paint booth to the top of the furnace balancing the model by the coupler boxes on my fingertips. When I set the car down the glove on my left hand stuck to the coupler box and pulled the model to the concrete floor. A quick inspection showed the only damage was the tank handrail broke, it already was, and one uncoupling lever fell off. We’ll see what else after the paint dries....
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Two Questions About Paint Primers

gtws00
 

Great idea. 
Thanks for the tip
George Toman


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (Government Document)

Bob Chaparro
 

I have the following document:

Refrigeration Of Fish - Part 5

Distribution And Marketing Of Frozen Fishery Products

This 78-page document, with photos and illustrations, was issued by the United States Department Of The Interior, Fish And Wildlife Service as Fishery Leaflet No. 431 in October 1956.

There is a lot of railroad-related information in the first part of the document.

As I am unable to upload this document to the Files Section, anyone wishing a copy can contact me DIRECTLY at:

chiefbobbb@... [chiefbobbb AT verizon DOT net]

Please do not request a copy by hitting "REPLY".

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (GN express Reefer)

Bob Chaparro
 

I found this photo from an unknown source, showing a GN express reefer apparently being used to ship fish.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Reefers for frozen fish. (Athearn Rr-30 Reefers)

Bob Chaparro
 

Here is a link to an older article on the Athearn HO scale fifty-foot Class Rr-30 reefers from the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society:

http://www.atsfrr.com/Reviews/HO/Freight/AthReef/Index.htm

These reefers were not intended for fresh citrus shipments so much as they were used for frozen juice, wine and fish.

These were not “super-insulated” cars and were not as suitable for frozen food service. Lower temperatures were required for frozen food  than the other listed commodities. According to Keith Jordan, these reefers normally traveled east in a produce reefer blocks because these blocks were fast trains and went through the enroute icing procedure required by these fifty-foot cars.

Santa Fe has other classes of fifty-foot ice bunker reefers that were constructed as “super-insulated” and these were their frozen food cars.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Reefers for frozen fish.

np328
 

       Scott, you are very safe in running at least one NP wooden reefer with fish. 
I have seen in my research carloads moving in our (I model 1953) time frame. This traffic was salmon that moved from Hoquiam / Aberdeen WA. to Chicago and often on the east coast.  I do recall seeing at least one car load moving from Hoquiam WA to Newport News, VA.           A longer route would take some planning and why transport salmon from one coast to the other, I have no answer for.

         As I said above, this should be an older car because paperwork I have states that "Fish service is where reefers go to die. Once used for fish they are virtually unusable for any other commodity!"
That per an NP railway officer berating a regional traffic clerk who used a newer reefer.   
        However for all that I have seen, heed Tony's words above. You say "frozen fish" and there were some process fisheries out on the western Washington coast starting in the 30's, however I do not recall the exact names, they were pretty commonly seen in the supermarket growing up. Names as a child I associate with frozen fish sticks. I do not eat fish and whenever I saw these in the fridge as a child the next move was to check if there was sufficient peanut butter to carry me through.                                                                                                                                                                             Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN  

And yes, a multi-hatch reefer from Canada.
     In the NP Rwy files at the Minnesota Historical Society is an extensive file with information on the testing of one of these multi-hatched reefers, in addition to the routing and shipping of fish from Canada down through Duluth via the DW&P then down to Chicago and points east. I recall pouring over it decades ago finding it really very interesting and then telling myself to concentrate on the subject at hand and not get off on a tangential interest. ( AS finding that file was.)  I need to revisit that file someday.             


Re: Reefers for frozen fish.

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Scott,

Shipping fresh fish contaminated a car, and such cars couldn't be used for other commodities until thoroughly cleaned--if ever. Generally fish cars were among the oldest equipment a road owned, and were likely permanently assigned to that service. In our era these would likely have been wooden reefers nearing the end of their service lives.

Not sure if this applied to whole frozen fish, but probably so, especially if special racks were involved. Packaged frozen fish (like fish sticks in the box) would not have contaminated a car.

Consider that most of your products would likely have come from one or two sources, and so your choice of road names should be limited to whatever railroads served those sources.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 11/24/18 8:43 PM, Scott wrote:
I have a small switching layout and want to add a frozen fish wholesaler.  Probably use the Walthers Cornerstone R.J. Frost building.  I model 1950.  What would be some good frozen fish reefers?  I am thinking the SFRD RR50 (Athearn) for some west coast fish.  A CP or CN 8 hatch reefer (Funaro) for Canadian fish.  Did PFE Super Giants move any fish?  I have a Sunshine kit of it I bought from Richard.  What would come out of the Seattle area as I assume they shipped out a lot of fish.  Not very familiar with NP reefers or MDT or ART if they hauled much fish.  Lastly are there any available BREX cars for frozen fish in resin or plastic?

Thanks
Scott McDonald

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