Date   

Re: Research drawings [was} 1934 AAR twin hopper blueprints

John Barry
 

Does anyone know if the production records of the Pressed Steel Car company have been preserved?  If so, where?

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Monday, December 10, 2018, 11:18:08 PM EST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:


On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 06:56 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
A general drawing of the car was published on p. 263 of the 1937 Car Builders’ Cyclopedia. This drawing shows a vertical-staff hand brake that few, if any, cars actually received. For developing a scale a model it provides the basics. It’s the version having straight side sills between the bolsters and an upward bend towards the corners.

The thought occurs to me that this might be a good time to have a discussion on how to find research drawings in this day and age. I date back to the days when we all relied on the general arrangement drawings of the generic "standard" car desgns published in the Car Builder's Cyclopedias, the followed photos to try to determine what exactly was different on the prototype we intended to model. After decades of this, we are all used ot asking for sources of drawings of standard designs.

The problem with this is in the past couple of decades, so much more material has become available from different archives; not only general arrangement drawings, but additional drawings all the way down to the component level. As an example, a general arrangement drawing of a boxcar will give a pictorial representation of pressed shape of the ends, without any dimensions. The component drawing of the ends will include dimensioned sectional views, and include all the information to model the surface in CAD, which can then become the basis for either CNC toolpaths or a 3D printed part. However, you'll never access these drawings asking for drawings of a "1934 AAR twin hopper". The drawings aren't labeled that way, and therefore aren't cataloged that way.

The various "standard designs" all allowed variations of component parts and fittings. Because this variation would likely affect mounting hole locations and the like, the car builders treated each and every order as a custom job. They may have done the base drawing by tracing older drawings of a standard car, but they prepared a full set of drawings for each order, and rarely do these drawings reference the underlying standard. All of this is a long way of saying that if you want to access these more complete archival drawings, you need to know the builder, and the builder's lot number, unless you are dealing with one of the railroad specific archives.

At the moment, the gold standard of drawing archives is that which is maintained by the Norfolk & Western Historical Society. The3y are well funded and are actively scanning the drawings in their collection. Their web site http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/ is easy to use and provides thumbnail images of the drawings, so you can determine if any particular sheet will be useful for your project. Ordering is on-line. Reproduction costs aren't excessive, and the drawings are mailed in a couple weeks. If the N&W had examples of the car you are interested in, this is a good place to start.

I believe the NP and Southern Ry. historical societies also have extensive drawing collections, but I have no experiance with them. Perhaps someone else can comment.

The Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum has a massive collection of Pullman-Standard and predecessor company drawings. Not quite as easy to use as the N&W collection, as the Pullman Library faces the constraint placed by the owner of the drawings that they NOT be made available until a license agreement is signed, which precludes putting useful thumbnails on their web site. They also have less funding, so there is no continuing scanning program. Drawings are scanned as reproductions are ordered. That being said, the library will scan anything that is ordered. Continuing work mostly involves cataloging the collection for easier access. The key to easily finding materials held by the Pullman Library is the lot number. Let me repeat, the key to finding materials held by the Pullman Library is the BUILDER'S LOT NUMBER. These are often to be found in other railroad historical society rosters and equipment diagrams. The library does have some of the Pullman-Standard hard copy indexes, which typically show the lot number, date of order, railroad that placed the order, kind of car, and possibly the number series assigned, if it was known at the time the order was placed. What the index DOES NOT SHOW is any relationship to any "standard design". For that matter, the drawings themselves will not reference any standard design, either. Knowing that you are looking for hopper cars built in 1934 may be enough to locate drawings, if you know the railroad that ordered them, and having the number series will help confirm that they are really drawings of the car you want. As I said before, builder's lot number is better. The index of Haskell & Barker and Standard steel Car Co. drawings are much less complete. Here is contact and general collection information for the Pullman Library: https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/

Apparently the National Museum of Transportation in the St. Louis area has some archival American Car & Foundry drawings, but I have little experiance with that collection. Best take Mr. Hawkins up on his offer of help if AC&F drawings are involved.

I hope some find this information helpful.

Dennis Storzek


Re: LNE 7001 - 7200

Tim O'Connor
 


this?


On 12/10/2018 10:54 PM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote:

Does anyone have a photo of a LNE 7001-7200 series boxcar? I realize Bob’s Photo has one. But I won’t see Bob until Cocoa and I need the photo for Cocoa.

 

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: AMB wheel masks

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

Their main utility IMO is not the wheel faces but the ability to paint the axles and the backs of the wheels a nice weathered rusty appearance, different from the weathering of the wheel faces.

Tim O'


On 12/10/2018 10:10 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Gosh, never took all this trouble. I hand-paint wheel faces with a brush, takes a minute or two, trivial clean-up. I did try a wheel mask once, borrowed Richard Hendrickson's, wasn't impressed.
Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Research drawings [was} 1934 AAR twin hopper blueprints

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 06:56 AM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
A general drawing of the car was published on p. 263 of the 1937 Car Builders’ Cyclopedia. This drawing shows a vertical-staff hand brake that few, if any, cars actually received. For developing a scale a model it provides the basics. It’s the version having straight side sills between the bolsters and an upward bend towards the corners.

The thought occurs to me that this might be a good time to have a discussion on how to find research drawings in this day and age. I date back to the days when we all relied on the general arrangement drawings of the generic "standard" car desgns published in the Car Builder's Cyclopedias, the followed photos to try to determine what exactly was different on the prototype we intended to model. After decades of this, we are all used ot asking for sources of drawings of standard designs.

The problem with this is in the past couple of decades, so much more material has become available from different archives; not only general arrangement drawings, but additional drawings all the way down to the component level. As an example, a general arrangement drawing of a boxcar will give a pictorial representation of pressed shape of the ends, without any dimensions. The component drawing of the ends will include dimensioned sectional views, and include all the information to model the surface in CAD, which can then become the basis for either CNC toolpaths or a 3D printed part. However, you'll never access these drawings asking for drawings of a "1934 AAR twin hopper". The drawings aren't labeled that way, and therefore aren't cataloged that way.

The various "standard designs" all allowed variations of component parts and fittings. Because this variation would likely affect mounting hole locations and the like, the car builders treated each and every order as a custom job. They may have done the base drawing by tracing older drawings of a standard car, but they prepared a full set of drawings for each order, and rarely do these drawings reference the underlying standard. All of this is a long way of saying that if you want to access these more complete archival drawings, you need to know the builder, and the builder's lot number, unless you are dealing with one of the railroad specific archives.

At the moment, the gold standard of drawing archives is that which is maintained by the Norfolk & Western Historical Society. The3y are well funded and are actively scanning the drawings in their collection. Their web site http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/ is easy to use and provides thumbnail images of the drawings, so you can determine if any particular sheet will be useful for your project. Ordering is on-line. Reproduction costs aren't excessive, and the drawings are mailed in a couple weeks. If the N&W had examples of the car you are interested in, this is a good place to start.

I believe the NP and Southern Ry. historical societies also have extensive drawing collections, but I have no experiance with them. Perhaps someone else can comment.

The Pullman Library at the Illinois Railway Museum has a massive collection of Pullman-Standard and predecessor company drawings. Not quite as easy to use as the N&W collection, as the Pullman Library faces the constraint placed by the owner of the drawings that they NOT be made available until a license agreement is signed, which precludes putting useful thumbnails on their web site. They also have less funding, so there is no continuing scanning program. Drawings are scanned as reproductions are ordered. That being said, the library will scan anything that is ordered. Continuing work mostly involves cataloging the collection for easier access. The key to easily finding materials held by the Pullman Library is the lot number. Let me repeat, the key to finding materials held by the Pullman Library is the BUILDER'S LOT NUMBER. These are often to be found in other railroad historical society rosters and equipment diagrams. The library does have some of the Pullman-Standard hard copy indexes, which typically show the lot number, date of order, railroad that placed the order, kind of car, and possibly the number series assigned, if it was known at the time the order was placed. What the index DOES NOT SHOW is any relationship to any "standard design". For that matter, the drawings themselves will not reference any standard design, either. Knowing that you are looking for hopper cars built in 1934 may be enough to locate drawings, if you know the railroad that ordered them, and having the number series will help confirm that they are really drawings of the car you want. As I said before, builder's lot number is better. The index of Haskell & Barker and Standard steel Car Co. drawings are much less complete. Here is contact and general collection information for the Pullman Library: https://www.irm.org/pullmanlibrary/

Apparently the National Museum of Transportation in the St. Louis area has some archival American Car & Foundry drawings, but I have little experiance with that collection. Best take Mr. Hawkins up on his offer of help if AC&F drawings are involved.

I hope some find this information helpful.

Dennis Storzek


Re: AMB wheel masks

James Brewer
 

I had a wheel mask but found it more trouble that it was worth; now I use a micro brush to paint the wheel and axle; simply throw the micro brush away when done.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 10:10 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Gosh, never took all this trouble. I hand-paint wheel faces with a brush, takes a minute or two, trivial clean-up. I did try a wheel mask once, borrowed Richard Hendrickson's, wasn't impressed.
Tony Thompson 


On Dec 10, 2018, at 6:31 PM, radiodial868 <radiodial@...> wrote:

I wondered about all those sizes too. I got the Proto 2000 one and have used it on every 33" wheel I've got: Intermountain, Rapido, whatever TMW uses, etc.  Both .100 and .088.   Key is to use a rubber band as shown. Spray with Cammo brown from a rattle can gives the wheels that unpainted but even rough texture. Pop them out and a quick couple of rotations with the fingernail on the shiny surface and you are done!  Very durable finish too.
RJ Dial
<IMG_0237.jpg>


LNE 7001 - 7200

Brian Carlson
 

Does anyone have a photo of a LNE 7001-7200 series boxcar? I realize Bob’s Photo has one. But I won’t see Bob until Cocoa and I need the photo for Cocoa.

 

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga NY

 


Re: AMB wheel masks

Tony Thompson
 

Gosh, never took all this trouble. I hand-paint wheel faces with a brush, takes a minute or two, trivial clean-up. I did try a wheel mask once, borrowed Richard Hendrickson's, wasn't impressed.
Tony Thompson 


On Dec 10, 2018, at 6:31 PM, radiodial868 <radiodial@...> wrote:

I wondered about all those sizes too. I got the Proto 2000 one and have used it on every 33" wheel I've got: Intermountain, Rapido, whatever TMW uses, etc.  Both .100 and .088.   Key is to use a rubber band as shown. Spray with Cammo brown from a rattle can gives the wheels that unpainted but even rough texture. Pop them out and a quick couple of rotations with the fingernail on the shiny surface and you are done!  Very durable finish too.
RJ Dial
<IMG_0237.jpg>


Re: AMB wheel masks

radiodial868
 

I wondered about all those sizes too. I got the Proto 2000 one and have used it on every 33" wheel I've got: Intermountain, Rapido, whatever TMW uses, etc.  Both .100 and .088.   Key is to use a rubber band as shown. Spray with Cammo brown from a rattle can gives the wheels that unpainted but even rough texture. Pop them out and a quick couple of rotations with the fingernail on the shiny surface and you are done!  Very durable finish too.
RJ Dial


Re: AMB wheel masks

John
 

I just push a length of insulation from an appropriate size of wire onto the axle end. I use a long enough piece that no paint finds its way to the axle.

John Bopp
Farmington Hills, MI


Re: AMB wheel masks

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

I have a slightly different take on this, but it may be applicable. I got tired of the paint chipping off wheel rims (the outer face of the tire). Most turned (as opposed to Kadee die cast) metal wheels are nickel plated, and nickel is a hard slippery surface that doesn't hold paint well, and is resistant to etching with mild acids like vinegar. So, I decided to abrasive blast the wheels to give the surface some "tooth". Problem is, one can't wipe off the roughened surface, which means the tread and axle point both need to be masked (I don't bother blasting the wheel backs).

To make the mask I drilled a 3/8" hole through the end of an Accurail car weight, not only because I had one at hand, but also because Accurail weights are .078 thick, just the right thickness to mask the whole tread on a Code 110 wheel ( a thinner piece of metal would work for Code 88 wheels). After drilling the hole, I used some fine sandpaper wrapped around a 1/4" dowel to gently expand it a couple thousandths to fit  a scale 33" wheel.

I then took a piece of 1/8" brass tubing a couple inches long and flattened all but the last 1/4" of it, then bent the flat portion into a "jug handle" shape so when the flat portion was affixed to the weight, the round end of the tube covered the axle point. Once both parts were made, I grit blasted them to increase the adhesion of the epoxy I used to assemble them. I fit a wheelset in the hole and positioned the bent tube to cover the axle point and fastened them together with a gob of JB Weld. Not elegant, but effective.

To use, I clamp the mask upright in the blasting booth, and hold the wheels in the hole with a gloved had, blasting first one wheel face, then the other. The thickness of the car weight protects the tread and flange, while the tube protects the bearing. The bend in the tube makes room for the stream of abrasive to get to all portions of the wheel face. The same set-up could probably be used as a paint mask, but I'm not interested in cleaning the mask, and just brush paint the wheels.

Dennis Storzek


Re: AMB wheel masks

Tim O'Connor
 

The modeler's friend - a thousand uses - very cheap, reusable, and long lasting

On 12/10/2018 6:34 PM, Matt Goodman via Groups.Io wrote:
I have a wheel mask, but rarely use it since it doesn’t prevent the axle end from being painted.

How do folks on this list deal with that? I’m currently dull-coting while still in the truck (while the wheelset is spinning), then subsequently removing the wheel and brush-painting everything to avoid painting the needle journal (usually successfully).

I’d prefer to airbrush them if I can solve that issue.

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: AMB wheel masks

Charles Happel
 

Micro Mark has a liquid masker. A drop on the axle ends and paint doesn't stick.

Chuck Happel

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 12/10/18, Matt Goodman via Groups.Io <mgoodman312@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AMB wheel masks
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018, 6:34 PM

I have a wheel mask, but rarely use it since it
doesn’t prevent the axle end from being
painted. 
How do folks on this list deal with that? I’m
currently dull-coting while still in the truck (while the
wheelset is spinning), then subsequently removing the wheel
and brush-painting everything to avoid painting the needle
journal (usually successfully). 
I’d prefer to airbrush them if I can solve that
issue. 
Matt GoodmanColumbus,
Ohio
Sent from my mobile
On Dec 10, 2018, at 1:14 AM, Roger Huber via Groups.Io
<trainpainter@...>
wrote:

Well,
I never thought it all that difficult to clean the treads
and axle ends after I paint them plus then you don't
need to hunt for the right tool when you go to paint. It
isn't fun to clean all the fixtures when done
too.
I'm
sure they have generated a lot of revenue for the companies
selling them.
Just
my 2¢. Roger
HuberDeer
Creek Locomotive Works




From:
Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io

Sent:
Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:38 PM
Subject:
Re: [RealSTMFC] AMB wheel masks




Thanks Dennis. I have wheels from DOZENS of manufacturers so
I guess I
can

live with a thousandth or two of size variation... Now I
wonder which one
is

the LARGEST, and that will be my "universal" wheel
mask.
:-D


Tim





On
Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 05:46 PM,
Tim O'Connor wrote:


Aren't all HO scale 33" wheelsets the same
size?



Tim, all prototype 33" wheels aren't the
same size :-) 
33" works out to .378 and some change in HO scale,
unless the
manufacturer used 1:87 as the scale factor, then it's a
bit over .379.
Since the tread is tapered, there has been continuous
disagreement about
where the diameter should be measured. I know the Accurail
molded wheels
measure .380 at the root of the flange fillet. When you are
trying to
produce a press fit paint mask, size matters, as they say,
so AMB has
decided they need three masks to cover the range.


Dennis Storzek
--

Tim
O'Connor
Sterling,
Massachusetts


Re: AMB wheel masks

 

I have a wheel mask, but rarely use it since it doesn’t prevent the axle end from being painted. 

How do folks on this list deal with that? I’m currently dull-coting while still in the truck (while the wheelset is spinning), then subsequently removing the wheel and brush-painting everything to avoid painting the needle journal (usually successfully). 

I’d prefer to airbrush them if I can solve that issue. 

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On Dec 10, 2018, at 1:14 AM, Roger Huber via Groups.Io <trainpainter@...> wrote:

Well, I never thought it all that difficult to clean the treads and axle ends after I paint them plus then you don't need to hunt for the right tool when you go to paint. It isn't fun to clean all the fixtures when done too.

I'm sure they have generated a lot of revenue for the companies selling them.

Just my 2¢.
 
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works



From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AMB wheel masks


Thanks Dennis. I have wheels from DOZENS of manufacturers so I guess I can
live with a thousandth or two of size variation... Now I wonder which one is
the LARGEST, and that will be my "universal" wheel mask. :-D

Tim



On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 05:46 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Aren't all HO scale 33" wheelsets the same size?

Tim, all prototype 33" wheels aren't the same size :-)  33" works out to .378 and some change in HO scale, unless the manufacturer used 1:87 as the scale factor, then it's a bit over .379. Since the tread is tapered, there has been continuous disagreement about where the diameter should be measured. I know the Accurail molded wheels measure .380 at the root of the flange fillet. When you are trying to produce a press fit paint mask, size matters, as they say, so AMB has decided they need three masks to cover the range.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts



Re: Fees masquerading as "Donations, was: Photo: Transformer Load

Brian Termunde
 

ABSOLUTELY!

And I would want to be as generous as possible as well!

Sincerely

Brian Termunde

Re: Fees masquerading as "Donations, was: Photo: Transformer Load 
From: Ted Culotta
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 15:21:22 PST 

 

In that vein, when you contact the archives in Temple, Texas (ATSF), Craig Ordner digs through everything to get you photos, diagrams, sketches, etc., with nothing more suggested than a donation to cover his time and that comes AFTER he emails everything he has. I gladly call in to provide my credit card info for that kind of information....
 
Cheers,


Re: AMB wheel masks

Ted Culotta
 

It’s a LOT easier if you use a mask... speaking from experience.


Re: 1934 AAR twin hopper blueprints

Ed Hawkins
 


On Dec 10, 2018, at 7:58 AM, up4479 <up4479@...> wrote:

A friend is in need of access to drawings for a 1934 AAR twin hopper.  This is for a fully detailed large 1:8 scale model.   Does anybody have a lead on any original drawings?  Thanks in advance.

Steve,
A general drawing of the car was published on p. 263 of the 1937 Car Builders’ Cyclopedia. This drawing shows a vertical-staff hand brake that few, if any, cars actually received. For developing a scale a model it provides the basics. It’s the version having straight side sills between the bolsters and an upward bend towards the corners.

The National Museum of Transportation has ACF drawings for the cars they built, and the Illinois Railway Museum has drawings for cars built by Pullman-Standard in the 1930s to early 1940s. Both of these sources have not only general arrangement drawings for specific series of cars, but they also have other drawings such as brake arrangement, side & end construction, floor sheets, and various steel details drawings for the underframe & other components. 

Please advise if you have a specific railroad in mind & I can provide specific lists of ACF drawings. Paper or digital copies of the ACF drawings are available. 

Regards,
Ed Hawkins



1934 AAR twin hopper blueprints

up4479
 

A friend is in need of access to drawings for a 1934 AAR twin hopper.  This is for a fully detailed large 1:8 scale model.   Does anybody have a lead on any original drawings?  Thanks in advance.
--
Steve Solombrino


More SFRD reefer kit builds

Eric Hansmann
 

George Toman shares a SFRD reefer build update on the Resin Car Works blog. George decided to upgrade a few details before rolling the models through the paint shop. More details through the link.

http://blog.resincarworks.com/more-sfrd-reefer-builds/



Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy


Re: Photo: UTLX 81014

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Thanks for that, Tony.  I have done some digging and figured out why my recollection was wide of the mark - I was confusing the falling reefer medallion with an incident in the UK of a passenger being injured on a train when the smoke deflector of a passing locomotive came loose.  Apparently I have too many railroad/railway interests and not enough filing cabinets upstairs to keep all the information organised!

Regards
Paul Woods

Whangarei, NZ


Re: AMB wheel masks

Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Well, I never thought it all that difficult to clean the treads and axle ends after I paint them plus then you don't need to hunt for the right tool when you go to paint. It isn't fun to clean all the fixtures when done too.

I'm sure they have generated a lot of revenue for the companies selling them.

Just my 2¢.
 
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works



From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] AMB wheel masks


Thanks Dennis. I have wheels from DOZENS of manufacturers so I guess I can
live with a thousandth or two of size variation... Now I wonder which one is
the LARGEST, and that will be my "universal" wheel mask. :-D

Tim



On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 05:46 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Aren't all HO scale 33" wheelsets the same size?

Tim, all prototype 33" wheels aren't the same size :-)  33" works out to .378 and some change in HO scale, unless the manufacturer used 1:87 as the scale factor, then it's a bit over .379. Since the tread is tapered, there has been continuous disagreement about where the diameter should be measured. I know the Accurail molded wheels measure .380 at the root of the flange fillet. When you are trying to produce a press fit paint mask, size matters, as they say, so AMB has decided they need three masks to cover the range.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


34881 - 34900 of 195471