Date   

Re: Prototype Rails2019 Clinic Schedeule and Descriptions

Bill Wolf
 

Greetings Mr. Brock;
I'm afraid the image of the flyer didn't come across my email.  Is there another place to look?
Thanks
Bill

On Thursday, December 13, 2018, 4:48:34 PM EST, Mikebrock <brockm@...> wrote:


Guys,

For those who might be tired of shoveling snow and enduring freezing temps, here’s the latest flyer of PrototypeRails with both the clinic schedule and clinic descriptions:

 

www.prototyperails.com

 

Several people have enquired about the clinic schedule and clinic descriptions. Links to both are located toward the bottom of the flyer.

 

Mike Brock

 


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Mikebrock
 

 

Andy Carlson writes:

 

BTW, I guess that these would even be suitable colors for the NP passenger greens of the late 1950s.

 

Under what lighting? Bright sunlight, bright sunlight at 5PM, cloudy sunlight, florescent daylight, florescent warm white, incandescent, LED, etc.?

Mike Brock


 

 


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

spsalso
 

The Paint Code link is great.  And I found that the "yellow" that was used for the lettering and striping on SP&S's Geeps was the same as B&M Gold.  Kewl!  Sure wish there were more entries.

In a sort of answer to paint color variations caused by a widespread rail system, I will note that GN painted all their passenger cars in one shop.  Thus there would have been no geographical variations.


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: "B" End Photo(s) of CNJ 21000 series: Trying to find

Bill Welch
 

Thanks to all who sent me the information I am looking for. I am golden now.

Bill Welch


Re: Grand Trunk Western Fowler Box Car 417150

lrkdbn
 

WELL DONE!!!
LR King


Re: ART reefer with swing-plug door

Tim O'Connor
 

thanks Don


On 12/20/2018 11:25 AM, ford.donald77 via Groups.Io wrote:
Tim
I have a builder photo of No. 37000 dated June 1957
Don Ford
Cameron MO

On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 10:39:40 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


When were these built? Are they identical to the PFE R-40-27?


Tim O'

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


"B" End Photo(s) of CNJ 21000 series: Trying to find

Bill Welch
 

Hoping someone on this list can point me to the source of a photo or photos of the "B" end of the CNJ's 1923 ARA steel boxcar from their 21000-21399 (preferred) or 21400-21799 series.

You can let me know offline at fgexbill(at)tampabay.rr.com if you choose.

Thank you,
Bill Welch


Re: Whose hopper?

David Vinci
 

I wonder what happened to that '55 chevy in the lower right corner


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 10:53 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
To this day I am pleased with the mix, and it has solidified my belief that even large corporations may seek the economy and convenience of stock, fleet colors.
Andy,

I believe this is already proven fact. A number of years ago a custom painter, Sam McCall, who went by the screen name HOSam, compiled a list of paint codes from EMD styling diagrams. Sam is long gone, but his list is still on the web: Paint Codes Interestingly, he sorted the list three ways: by railroad, by color, and by manufacturers product number. This last makes it easy to see which roads used exactly the same paint; The Santa Fe and Rock Island used the exact same red, while the Rock Island and Erie Lackawanna used the exact same maroon. there are a bunch others.

The site also has some useful discussion on the history of the automotive finishes favored by EMD.

Dennis Storzek


Re: ART reefer with swing-plug door

ford.donald77 <ford.donald77@...>
 

Tim
I have a builder photo of No. 37000 dated June 1957
Don Ford
Cameron MO

On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 10:39:40 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


When were these built? Are they identical to the PFE R-40-27?


Tim O'




--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*




Re: Tichy USRA clone kit

James Miller
 

I need help - I need a drawing of the National bottom door bracket and rollers as used on the USRA DS boxcars. I'm building this car in 1" scale and my primary reference is "Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, vol 16". Unfortunately, all photos I've seen of these cars show the door guides at eye level - makes it tough to determine their full shape. Neither have I found the guides in those Car Builders Cyclopedias I have access to. Since this discussion has been addressing the door guides, I figure this was a good time to ask. The drawings referenced in these emails concerning this door guide are close, but they're not quite a match to the pictures of the USRA car. If anyone can supply this information, it would certainly be a big help.
Drawings of the 'center sill end casting' and the 'end sheet diagonal rod casting' would be a help also - I wouldn't have to estimate dimensions off the photos.
Thanks -- Jim Miller


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Frank Grimm <fddms@...>
 

The attached link give the mathemactical equasion for color matching.
 Modern commercial  paint matches are concidered acceptable with a Delta E (dE)  of +/- .5. This is a visual match, at arms lenth under natural light head on. Before computer aided matching that was +/- 1 dE.This could have a visable differance from one end of the scale to anouther, but,still be concidered a match. Depending on th industry, the value could be as high as +/- 2-3 or more dE.Can anyone come up with a dE value the railroads used?
Typical color formlation include no more than 4 pigment colors. The short reason for this was that to many pigment caused flop <industry slang> that affcted the color when viewed from direrent angles.
Other things to concider with color matches are:
 surface prep of substrate ( the item being pinted) is it sandblasted, smooth ...
 color of substate:red primer, grey primer, old paint, raw steel and so on
 thickness of coating. This is measured in mils and can affect durability, how fast it fades and weathers, and color
 lighting can change color. A match under incondessent light can,alot of times, look completely different under natural daylight and floressant lighting. So someone approving a color match in a spray booth or shop with floressant lighting can have  on match when moved into natural light/
there are still many more factors including pigment and pigment strenth, reduction, resin system.........

Frank Grimm
Sandwich, IL








Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Something nobody has mentioned is that in the early years of the 20th century, some railroads were still buying dry pigment (probably in barrels) and mixing their own paint with linseed oil. Every mix would likely have been slightly different. This was done on the Northern Electric Railway for the poppy-orange color used on both their interurban cars and freight motors. When the road was reorganized as the Sacramento Northern Railroad circa 1920, passenger cars were repainted Pullman green and the freight motors solid black. SN expert Bob Campbell thought that stocks of the yellow pigment were still around after WWII and were used to paint the yellow scare stripes on the electric locomotives. The SNRR and SNRY built or completely rebuilt some of their wooden freight cars up into the 1920s, and likely those cars where painted with rollers and brushes, whether the paint was dry pigment or pre-mix.

When pre-mixed paint came along, many railroads still applied it with brushes and rollers.
Remember, even Henry had his Model-Ts brush painted for many years. Then spray equipment became common, and likely required a different formula to work in the machines. This change could have marked a difference in how the paint looked on some roads.

Those of you who know more about the history of railroad paint might be able to suggest when pre-mix paint and then spray equipment became common.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 12/19/18 11:38 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
Another consideration concerning paint, color matching, and cost. 

Anyone who has purchased paint commercially, even model paint, knows that, unlike the paint department at the big box store, different colors have different prices. And, unlike the fixed chromatic values of the RGB phosphors on a computer monitor, paint is made with pigments that, whether natural or synthetic, are not a "pure" color. The end result is there is more than one way to formulate an acceptable match to a desired color, and the way to win that big contract is to figure out how to do it with the least expensive pigments. This may explain why many railroads went to darker freightcar colors when synthetic pigments became available. In the days of natural pigment, the various natural clays colored orange with the oxides of iron were likely cheapest; this may not have been the easiest color to match with the new synthetics, and one by one, the railroad's desire to have everything neat and tidy was overruled by the potential for cost savings if the color could be changed.

Likewise, new streamlined passenger trains should be matched sets... but fifteen years later, when the only color the accounting dept. was seeing was red, maybe matched sets were no longer that important.

Then there were times when color was important simply because the executive suite said it was. As related in The Little Jewel Wallace Abby, who was involved in the affair, states that the Soo Line's red, white, and black color scheme, developed for locomotives just after the end of the time period of this list and soon migrating to freightcars, was a direct result of the mechanical department's  cost cutting measures that eliminated the imitation gold trim on the locomotives, turning them into solid maroon blobs, on the eve of the merger that top management wanted to portray, for PR purposes, as dynamic. Once the executive suite was involved, they were several color changes on successive locomotive orders until they were satisfied with the contrast between the base color and lettering.

Moral of the story is there are many unseen forces at work, and the desire that all things match is normally not the most important of them.

Dennis Storzek


The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Andy Carlson
 

Hello-
One thing to think of about colors is costs of custom blends. If a RR was to have a special color, getting timely restocks could be delayed, and the costs could be hard to justify to management.

I remember back in the 1980s (pre PC era for me) I wanted accurate colors for the Pacific Great Eastern RR's diesel locomotives. I went through my own color prints of the two-tone green locos and selected prints which appeared good to me as being a match.

I went to an auto paint supply dealer and on a whim, checked through a large catalog for fleet colors. I found two good matches on the Sherwin Williams chips which I was able to purchase in lacquer. To this day I am pleased with the mix, and it has solidified my belief that even large corporations may seek the economy and convenience of stock, fleet colors. BTW, I guess that these would even be suitable colors for the NP passenger greens of the late 1950s.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Wednesday, December 19, 2018, 8:38:41 PM PST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:




Anyone who has purchased paint commercially, even model paint, knows that, unlike the paint department at the big box store, different colors have different prices. And, unlike the fixed chromatic values of the RGB phosphors on a computer monitor, paint is made with pigments that, whether natural or synthetic, are not a "pure" color. The end result is there is more than one way to formulate an acceptable match to a desired color, and the way to win that big contract is to figure out how to do it with the least expensive pigments. This may explain why many railroads went to darker freightcar colors when synthetic pigments became available. In the days of natural pigment, the various natural clays colored orange with the oxides of iron were likely cheapest; this may not have been the easiest color to match with the new synthetics, and one by one, the railroad's desire to have everything neat and tidy was overruled by the potential for cost savings if the color could be changed.



Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Dennis Storzek
 

When a shop had pride, and someone felt that it mattered (and with freight cars it normally didn't) they would often retain small odd lots of previous paint orders so they could have some chance of successfully touching up damage. Such was the case with the transit authority I once worked for, and apparently was the case in the Soo's Shoreham coach shop because the Society has obtained three home made non-matching maroon samples, just paint brushed on stencil card with manufacture names scrawled on the back in pencil. Most likely when the painter was assigned to touch up a car that had been repaired, he took the samples out to the shop to see which one was the best match, then drew that paint out of the storeroom. Of course, as the retained stock was depleted, that was no longer an option, and then he just used what was available.

Dennis Storzek


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

A comment that really has little bearing on the matter at hand, but I absolutely love the black and yellow scheme.

I understand the desire on the part of management to set the passenger units of on a different level, particularly at a time when passenger business was losing money but still……. To me the black/yellow WAS Erie.

I’ll go back to my lurkers corner now.

John Hagen

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

 

Don, I can shed some light on this question, MAYBE.

 

When the ERIE’s PAs were delivered, they wore a black and yellow paint scheme, adapted from the freight locomotives.  Later the ERIE bought E8s, which were delivered in the two-tone green scheme.  Then management decided that since the PAs were passenger locomotives, they too should be two-tone green, like the E units.

 

Some years ago, I arm wrestled with some other guy on eBay to buy a fairly thick file regarding the repainting of the PAs into the two-tone green.  It was a bit expensive but I wanted that file.  What it include was that the PAs were to be repainted in the shop in Jersey City, but that each engine was to receive a different manufacturer’s paint, all mixed to “the same” colors.

 

Now they were close enough that AFAIK, no one ever said “Hey, those engine’s colors don’t’ match!”  But the point was, and is here, that the one shop did this so that they could keep tabs on the performance of the paint over time, presumably hoping to identify “the best” paint.

 

So in this particular case (which doesn’t mean you can generalize) only the one shop had this program.

 

It’s my intention to examine these files and if the information warrants, write an article about what was discovered.  There is enough longitudinal record keeping that I think they may have come to some conclusion.  I need to retire from real work so I can do that.

 

BTW, in black & yellow, in two-tone green and in the (sometime in the future for this list) gray, maroon and yellow, the PAs did haul freight cars. *whew*

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:43 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

 

    I have another question with regard to paint suppliers on a road the length of the NP. Would the paint bought

at a specific time be used by all shops on the railroad or did different shops use different suppliers in order to 

shop as locally as possible? Different suppliers in different locales that a railroad served could easily cause a

difference in color or shade of a color.

 

Happy Holidays, Don Valentine

 


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Don, I can shed some light on this question, MAYBE.

 

When the ERIE’s PAs were delivered, they wore a black and yellow paint scheme, adapted from the freight locomotives.  Later the ERIE bought E8s, which were delivered in the two-tone green scheme.  Then management decided that since the PAs were passenger locomotives, they too should be two-tone green, like the E units.

 

Some years ago, I arm wrestled with some other guy on eBay to buy a fairly thick file regarding the repainting of the PAs into the two-tone green.  It was a bit expensive but I wanted that file.  What it include was that the PAs were to be repainted in the shop in Jersey City, but that each engine was to receive a different manufacturer’s paint, all mixed to “the same” colors.

 

Now they were close enough that AFAIK, no one ever said “Hey, those engine’s colors don’t’ match!”  But the point was, and is here, that the one shop did this so that they could keep tabs on the performance of the paint over time, presumably hoping to identify “the best” paint.

 

So in this particular case (which doesn’t mean you can generalize) only the one shop had this program.

 

It’s my intention to examine these files and if the information warrants, write an article about what was discovered.  There is enough longitudinal record keeping that I think they may have come to some conclusion.  I need to retire from real work so I can do that.

 

BTW, in black & yellow, in two-tone green and in the (sometime in the future for this list) gray, maroon and yellow, the PAs did haul freight cars. *whew*

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:43 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

 

    I have another question with regard to paint suppliers on a road the length of the NP. Would the paint bought

at a specific time be used by all shops on the railroad or did different shops use different suppliers in order to 

shop as locally as possible? Different suppliers in different locales that a railroad served could easily cause a

difference in color or shade of a color.

 

Happy Holidays, Don Valentine

 


ART reefer with swing-plug door

Tim O'Connor
 

When were these built? Are they identical to the PFE R-40-27?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/372534810668

Tim O'




--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Dennis Storzek
 

Another consideration concerning paint, color matching, and cost. 

Anyone who has purchased paint commercially, even model paint, knows that, unlike the paint department at the big box store, different colors have different prices. And, unlike the fixed chromatic values of the RGB phosphors on a computer monitor, paint is made with pigments that, whether natural or synthetic, are not a "pure" color. The end result is there is more than one way to formulate an acceptable match to a desired color, and the way to win that big contract is to figure out how to do it with the least expensive pigments. This may explain why many railroads went to darker freightcar colors when synthetic pigments became available. In the days of natural pigment, the various natural clays colored orange with the oxides of iron were likely cheapest; this may not have been the easiest color to match with the new synthetics, and one by one, the railroad's desire to have everything neat and tidy was overruled by the potential for cost savings if the color could be changed.

Likewise, new streamlined passenger trains should be matched sets... but fifteen years later, when the only color the accounting dept. was seeing was red, maybe matched sets were no longer that important.

Then there were times when color was important simply because the executive suite said it was. As related in The Little Jewel Wallace Abby, who was involved in the affair, states that the Soo Line's red, white, and black color scheme, developed for locomotives just after the end of the time period of this list and soon migrating to freightcars, was a direct result of the mechanical department's  cost cutting measures that eliminated the imitation gold trim on the locomotives, turning them into solid maroon blobs, on the eve of the merger that top management wanted to portray, for PR purposes, as dynamic. Once the executive suite was involved, they were several color changes on successive locomotive orders until they were satisfied with the contrast between the base color and lettering.

Moral of the story is there are many unseen forces at work, and the desire that all things match is normally not the most important of them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: The curious case of NP box car colors in the 50's

Tony Thompson
 

     This discussion brings to mind something I was told by Earl Hopkins, retired Chief Mechanical Officer of PFE, about paint color matching. He said that the PFE representative at the manufacturing plant would have the PFE color chip samples with him, along with a list of approved suppliers, and he would make a judgement if the paint was "close enough" on a new car batch. He readily conceded that different paint companies would "match" desired colors differently, but that PFE's plant representative had the responsibility to accept or reject a particular paint.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





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