Date   
Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Andy Carlson
 

Yes, the Perris "Orange Empire" museum. Many years ago, all of the wood, sidings and floor, were removed I suppose for restoring, which the last time I saw the car had not yet been done. This allows great views of the underframe with all of the brake piping and components very visible.

There are lots of freight cars at the museum.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, February 14, 2019, 8:32:58 AM PST, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:


It might have been Orange Empire?  I spent a lot of time going over their freight cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 11:29 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Do you recall which museum?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA




Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

It might have been Orange Empire? I spent a lot of time going over their freight cars.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 11:29 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Do you recall which museum?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Bob Chaparro
 

Do you recall which museum?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Flat Black

mopacfirst
 

There are also numerous builder's photos of freight cars that were photographed fully painted (the "as-delivered" paint scheme), but with underbody details, the inner surfaces of wheels, and sometimes other things, whitewashed so the details would show better.

Ron Merrick

Re: Flat Black

Jon Miller
 

On 2/14/2019 5:26 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:
negatives could be doctored in many ways

Again I'm agreeing but I do find interesting items.  Like to me it appears the entire track under the gon has been hand drawn.  How was that done  and why?

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: Flat Black

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 08:40 PM, Jon Miller wrote:
    While I don't doubt any of the explanations for the pictures. I am interested in the first  2 of Tim's photos.  Why is the lettering black.  Did they spray it with wash off paint to have the black letter remain? 
A comment... May people have mentioned "spray." I'm going to take the position that very few shops were spray painting in the first decades of the twentieth century, and the spray equipment that was in use was more a pump to get the paint up on the work. The paint was then finished with a brush.

Calcimine can be over coated with oil based paints and stencil pastes, and still wash off. A common problem encountered in renovating buildings in urban areas is finding that the walls and especially ceilings had been painted with calcimine at some point, then repainted with successive coats of oil based paints. The modern trend of using water based latex emulsion paints introduces enough water to the surface, and holds it there long enough, that the calcimine loosens up and all the subsequent layers of paint come off in sheets. One of the reasons that renovation contractors typically cover EVERYTHING with drywall; letting the painters start with a clean fresh surface.

My favorite wash-off paint story... For a number of years back in the eighties I worked for the Chicago Transit Authority, often at Wilson Ave. in the Uptown neighborhood. There is a multistory brick building that backs up very close to the tracks, the roof line being just perfect for a flying leap to the top of a moving elevated train. The stunt has been done several times, in more than one movie.

The building had, for years and years, rather decrepit windows, while I was up there the neighborhood started to gentrify and all the windows were replaced with modern double glazed units with bronzetone aluminum trim. About two years after this was done, along comes another movie company that wants to use the building to film the 'leap.' So, in come painters in bucket trucks, who paint all the window frames a dingy gray, with purple-gray highlights dry brushed on the flat surfaces to make them look weathered. It took them about three weeks (the building was a city block long.) They then shot the scene in a day between the morning and evening rush hours.

The next day the bucket trucks were back, and they pressure washed all the gray paint off.

If there is a financial reason that justifies the expense, temporarily painting something, then washing it clean, is easy to do.

Dennis Storzek

ART 15000 Series Questions

Nelson Moyer
 

I posted these questions on the resinfreightcarbuilders group and got no response, so I’m expanding the pool of experts. I’d like to modify the ends and sides of Westerfield #6001 (ART series 12000-12505) to ART series 15000-16999 if I can resolve a problem with the information on the PDS. The PDS states that the 15000 series had short doors (5’ 10”), but also states that AC&F started using 6’ 6” high doors in 1922, which is the build date for the 15000 series cars. It also states that ‘short’ cast end sills were used, but it also states that these end sill weren’t introduced until 1927, five years after the 15000 series was built. Photos of ART 15252 in the new ART book show short end sills, but I can’t tell if which door height was used from the photo. My questions are, were any 15000 series cars built with ‘full’ end sills like those on the 12000 series cars, and which door height was used on the 15000 series cars? I can’t do the conversion if the 15000 series had short end sills, which would otherwise involve only adding four straps and bolt heads to each corner.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

Re: Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Benjamin Hom
 

Walt Cox asked:
"All the recent posts on Gondolas made me think of the Tichy War Emergency kit and whether any of the roads that had them would have not replaced their wood sides with steel by 1959. Does anyone know of a resource that I could refer to to find out if this model could be used on a 1959 dated layout?"

Richard Hendrickson had a two-part article on these cars in the May 2002 and June 2002 issues of Railmodel Journal, including photos of NYC, PRR, ATSF, Texas & Northern, CNJ, RDG, RI, GTW, and IHB with steel sides.


Ben Hom



Re: Flat Black

Bruce Smith
 

Jon,


I've worked a lot in a darkroom and these two cars are decidedly NOT negative images or even doctored negative images. As Tim noted, the shadows are a big clue and not just those under the car. Look at the spring packages. No way that's a negative image. The cars are white (or grey) washed. Yes, they sprayed or brushed "whitewash" on the car and lettered it in black... and then washed it all off, finished the paint if it was not already done, lettered it in white stencil paste and released it for service. I'm perplexed as to why this is so hard for people to accept. It wasn't done for every car, but it wasn't hard and labor was cheap. And yes, negatives could be doctored in many ways, including dodging and airbrushing and for a moment I wondered if the entire image hadn't been airbrushed, but again, there are too many subtle clues that it is an actual image of an actual car temporarily painted in this manner.


Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 10:40 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black
 
On 2/13/2019 7:13 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
but only two are "white washed" for a photo. (see attached)

On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

    While I don't doubt any of the explanations for the pictures. I am interested in the first  2 of Tim's photos.  Why is the lettering black.  Did they spray it with wash off paint to have the black letter remain?  As the pictures are trimmed around the car, if the car was very dark and the lettering was white, then a reversed neg (with a good person doing the print) would come out as the picture shows.  If you notice on the gon the track is all drawn  in.  There is a lot more done on these photos (by expensive people) then just gray, washable paint.

  The 3rd pictures makes sense for an overspray.  Before retiring I worked for a company that had photographic engineers that could do magic (I saw some of it) with B&W negs!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Walter;

Tim is correct, and to add: There was an ATSF WE gon at a museum in SoCal that had wood sides and floor to the end. I know because I crawled all over it in the late eighties.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Walter Cox via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 12:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit


All the recent posts on Gondolas made me think of the Tichy War Emergency kit and whether any of the roads that had them would have not replaced their wood sides with steel by 1959. Does anyone know of a resource that I could refer to to find out if this model could be used on a 1959 dated layout ?

Re: Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Tim O'Connor
 


Walter

You should be very happy to learn that the Santa Fe still had 307 unrebuilt 52 ft 6 inch
War Emergency gondolas in service in 1959. I can also tell you the Santa Fe kept these
cars for a LONG time - into the 1980's! (Although by then they had steel sides.)

Note - these ATSF cars had Nailable Steel Flooring. The only correct model in HO I've
ever seen with a correct NSF floor is the ancient (pre-1960?) Revell PRR gondola, later
marketed by Concor.

Tim O'



On 2/14/2019 12:54 AM, Walter Cox via Groups.Io wrote:

All the recent posts on Gondolas made me think of the Tichy War Emergency kit and whether any of the roads that had them would have not replaced their wood sides with steel  by 1959. Does anyone know of  a resource that I could refer to to find out if this model could be used on a 1959 dated layout ?


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Flat Black

Tim O'Connor
 


Jon,

That's an intriguing theory about a reversed negative. Only one problem - the SHADOWS under the
car are dark. Unless, as you imply (I think) an artist did something to the negative or the print - That was
a pretty common skill in those days.

Tim O'



On 2/13/2019 11:40 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

On 2/13/2019 7:13 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
but only two are "white washed" for a photo. (see attached)

On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

    While I don't doubt any of the explanations for the pictures. I am interested in the first  2 of Tim's photos.  Why is the lettering black.  Did they spray it with wash off paint to have the black letter remain?  As the pictures are trimmed around the car, if the car was very dark and the lettering was white, then a reversed neg (with a good person doing the print) would come out as the picture shows.  If you notice on the gon the track is all drawn  in.  There is a lot more done on these photos (by expensive people) then just gray, washable paint.

  The 3rd pictures makes sense for an overspray.  Before retiring I worked for a company that had photographic engineers that could do magic (I saw some of it) with B&W negs!

-- 
Jon Miller



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Tichy 52" War emergency gondola kit

Walter Cox
 


All the recent posts on Gondolas made me think of the Tichy War Emergency kit and whether any of the roads that had them would have not replaced their wood sides with steel  by 1959. Does anyone know of  a resource that I could refer to to find out if this model could be used on a 1959 dated layout ?

Duryea UF applications

Earl Tuson
 

A couple weeks back, I had bumped into Ted Culotta at his booth at the Springfield show, and taken a
moment to peek at his M26D/E Duryea underframe parts. When I inquired about the B&M’s 25 steel ARA
cars and their Duryea underframes, he astutely pointed out that the same builder built the B&O’s cars, and
that it would be a safe bet that the B&M cars had identical under-frames (and, Ted, the drawings are
indeed published: 1931 CBC, page 348, and TS 48.) Once back home, I got to thinking more about such
things and visited the Duryea page on the old steamfreightcars webpage.

One omission on the all-time-roster shown there are the B&M’s 25 N5b clones built in the Concord shops
from kits in 1932, #104700-104724. Did any of the PRR cars have Duryea UF??

As I understand it, the Duryea design varied over time from a solid cross member to an open assembly and
back to a different solid style. In S scale, we are able to obtain underframe castings from SMMW’s M-53
kit. Can anyone assist in identifying which Duryea designs would have been under the following cars:

LV 75635, a “wrong way” door car rebuilt 1935-6,
MP 31486, a ‘32 AAR from 1937 (open?),
B&O 285471, an M-56 built 1952 (late solid?)

TIA,
Earl Tuson

Re: Flat Black

Jon Miller
 

On 2/13/2019 7:13 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
but only two are "white washed" for a photo. (see attached)

On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

    While I don't doubt any of the explanations for the pictures. I am interested in the first  2 of Tim's photos.  Why is the lettering black.  Did they spray it with wash off paint to have the black letter remain?  As the pictures are trimmed around the car, if the car was very dark and the lettering was white, then a reversed neg (with a good person doing the print) would come out as the picture shows.  If you notice on the gon the track is all drawn  in.  There is a lot more done on these photos (by expensive people) then just gray, washable paint.

  The 3rd pictures makes sense for an overspray.  Before retiring I worked for a company that had photographic engineers that could do magic (I saw some of it) with B&W negs!

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: Truck Journal Conversions

W.R.Dixon
 

On 13/02/2019 10:09 a.m., John Hagen via Groups.Io wrote:
I’m surprised that these weren’t more readily available before now.
Trains Canada did them years ago. Was a truck with no journal lids so you could see the roller bearing inside. They came with plug in journal box covers if you didn't want the roller bearing conversion.

Central Hobbies in Vancouver, BC has many of them in stock.

Bill Dixon

Re: Flat Black

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 07:13 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

Therefore, I submit there was more than one technique in use!
I agree. The "whitewashed" cars were likely done with calcimine (google it) a water based mixture of slaked lime and powdered chalk that could be applied with a brush. I suspect adding lampblack to calcimine would result in a "gray wash" or even "black wash" if enough were added. Typical spotting feature of calcimine (at least in old houses) is a flat, chalky appearance, and the fact that painting over it with anything containing water makes it come off; as would a good wash. Yeah, it's extra work, but in the early days of the twentieth century labor was cheap and photography was not, so if it was worth taking photos for promotional purposes, it was worth taking photos that showed the detail.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Flat Black

Tony Thompson
 

To choose a single example, Ed Kaminski, an AC&F employee, describes “builder gray” as washable gray used only for photos. 
Tony Thompson 


On Feb 13, 2019, at 7:13 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


How could anyone know the answer unless there is a contemporaneous account that describes it?
The practice was certainly not applied to all freight cars - I have dozens of builder photos from the
1920's, but only two are "white washed" for a photo. (see attached)

On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

Therefore, I submit there was more than one technique in use!

Tim O'


On 2/13/2019 8:07 PM, Paul Woods wrote:
Really?  Could you please enlighten me as to where you learned this from?  I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just that I have never heard of wash-off paint being used; in all the examples I have encountered, the gray paint used was treated like a primer, with gloss black or whatever other livery was in favour being applied over the top after the photographs were done.

Regards
Paul




     That "photo gray" was a paint that could be washed off with water after photography was finished. Neither locomotives nor cars were EVER delivered that way.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<np_5474_50ft_DD_box_SS_PSC_builder_10-1924.jpg>
<up_99780_48ft_gondola_G-50-9_builder_1925.jpg>
<grcx_3200_1-dome_tank_8k_SSC_builder_GulfRefiningCo_3-1923.jpg>

Re: Flat Black

Tim O'Connor
 


How could anyone know the answer unless there is a contemporaneous account that describes it?
The practice was certainly not applied to all freight cars - I have dozens of builder photos from the
1920's, but only two are "white washed" for a photo. (see attached)

On the other hand, this tank car photo - GRCX 3200 - appears to be a black car that has been oversprayed
with something to make all the details visible. (see attached)

Therefore, I submit there was more than one technique in use!

Tim O'


On 2/13/2019 8:07 PM, Paul Woods wrote:
Really?  Could you please enlighten me as to where you learned this from?  I'm not saying you are wrong, it's just that I have never heard of wash-off paint being used; in all the examples I have encountered, the gray paint used was treated like a primer, with gloss black or whatever other livery was in favour being applied over the top after the photographs were done.

Regards
Paul




     That "photo gray" was a paint that could be washed off with water after photography was finished. Neither locomotives nor cars were EVER delivered that way.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Seeking Help On An SP Auto Car

Schuyler Larrabee
 

At least in New England, it’s called WWF, for Welded Wire Fabric.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Seeking Help On An SP Auto Car

 

Tim:

 

Thank you very much for the information! 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 9:31 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Seeking Help On An SP Auto Car

 

Gary

I think it is steel "mesh" - commonly used to reinforce cast concrete. The
material is steel wire laid out in a grid, so the pieces are very flexible
even when stacked up like that


On 2/13/2019 12:14 PM, gary laakso wrote:

What is the very unusual load in the gondola in the picture?  Think rolled steel?

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 4:26 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Seeking Help On An SP Auto Car

 


Bill as far as I know, the cars had rectangular panel roofs. This one does.

Tim


On 2/12/2019 9:10 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:

 

I posted this question a short time back an it is p mb e of the very few times that I did not receive a response.  I am doing a Sunshine kit of a Southern Pacific A-50-16 40' auto car.  It has been in my pipeline for a while.

 

This is a good thing as I assembled  the body with a flat panel roof.  I recently learned that the car needed a diagonal panel roof and Andy Carlson came to my rescue.  I remember receiving some information earlier that the kit under frame was not correct.  Can anyone direct me to some accurate information an the under frame (cross members and appliance) layout.

 

I hope to have better luck this time.

 

Bill Pardie

 

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts