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Unidentified deep well flatcar

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: steam era freight car images, dating from 1900 to 1942

Craig Bisgeier
 

Claus, Thanks in particular for the photo of the string of 28' UP Boxcars. This is very helpful to me!

Craig Bisgeier
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Bill Daniels
 

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California


On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Don Burn
 

Bill,

Actually the container was designed to retain the nuclear material if the regular explosive went off but the bomb did not detonate. My father was a military officer assigned to the project, so I have read a lot of about the effort.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California



On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@... <mailto:danmitch@...> > wrote:



Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io> > wrote:

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine





<https://www.history-a2z.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88912/c2d1e97a969b5788b99e55499d81fff7_fcb10f1d502cc09de6c1cab9f428f18e_Trinity_15184771366633.jpg>
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Jeff
 

That's Jumbo, a large metal casing (214 tons) that was designed to hold the Gadget. The idea was that if the TNT exploded but the plutonium didn't, it would contain the explosion and no plutonium would be lost.

They didn't use it, but it survived intact 800 yards from the detonation. They later blew the ends off with eight 500lb bombs. I've been to Trinity, it is still there.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 06:22 Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Bill Daniels
 

Thanks, Don for that clarification. It makes more sense than a containment vessel for the explosion.

Bill

On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:41 AM, Don Burn <burn@...> wrote:

Bill,

Actually the container was designed to retain the nuclear material if the regular explosive went off but the bomb did not detonate. My father was a military officer assigned to the project, so I have read a lot of about the effort.

Don Burn


-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California



On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@... <mailto:danmitch@...> > wrote:



Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io> > wrote:

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine





<https://www.history-a2z.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88912/c2d1e97a969b5788b99e55499d81fff7_fcb10f1d502cc09de6c1cab9f428f18e_Trinity_15184771366633.jpg>






Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Such vessels, including the shell for the “gadget”, were to contain the explosive force of the conventional explosives (TNT, whatever, used to compress the nuclear core material) … should the expected atomic reaction NOT take place. Once the real nuclear reaction actually occurs everything nearby is VAPORIZED. There’s no containing it.

I agree that the pictured item is a strange vessel, but it’s true structure cannot be seen here. We only see one side of it. There’s some kind of shell surrounding the vessel that does not look like it’s part of the actual device. A shipping jacket? Note that it’s being prepared to ROLL off the flatcar. The jacket protects the actual vessel during the roll. The bolted “cap” on the left side is mostly a lifting lug, so I expect that would be replaced with a different one when the device was assembled for use.

Whatever, it’s NOT a power reactor, so may not have needed any external cooling loop. LOTS of small reactors just operated in a big water bath. There were also lots of non-critical reactions to be studied.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Bill Daniels via Groups.Io <billinsf@...> wrote:

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California


On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Makes sense. It’s not the gadget, and there’s no containing the actual nuclear explosion IF it occurs].

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 9:44 AM, Jeff <jeffshultz@...> wrote:

That's Jumbo, a large metal casing (214 tons) that was designed to hold the Gadget. The idea was that if the TNT exploded but the plutonium didn't, it would contain the explosion and no plutonium would be lost.

They didn't use it, but it survived intact 800 yards from the detonation. They later blew the ends off with eight 500lb bombs. I've been to Trinity, it is still there.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 06:22 Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Tim O'Connor
 


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Station reports (was UP 175288 in 1938 - emigrants)

Earl Tuson
 

Tony responded to Tim:

> I haven't got a clue what that could possibly mean, but I'm more curious about the document itself...

The monthly station report was commonplace, Tim. Instruction books for station agents include them,
and so does the _AAR Accounting Rules_ book.

Here’s a sample CT100 from the Suncook Valley Railroad:

http://suncookvalleyrailroad.redmansefarm.com/FreightDocs/SVFormCT100.jpg

Too bad I don’t have a stack of them filled out!

Earl Tuson
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Paul Doggett
 

First A bomb 
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 
image1.jpeg


On 11 Mar 2019, at 14:54, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: steam era freight car images, dating from 1900 to 1942

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Craig and List Members,
 
Craig, you are refering to this image I believe...
 
https://digitalcollections.uwyo.edu/luna/servlet/s/1xy326
 
I like the fact that one can zoom in a whole lot for some very nice detail viewing.
 
Note in the above image the roundhouse, with the locomotives all positioned with the front facing toward the turntable. We mostly see these views with the front of the locomotive facing AWAY from the turntable... I wonder if this was normal practice or was done for the benefit of the photograph.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] steam era freight car images, dating from 1900 to 1942

Claus, Thanks in particular for the photo of the string of 28' UP Boxcars. This is very helpful to me!

Craig Bisgeier

Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

John Moore
 


The photo was taken at Pope, New Mexico, during the unloading of Jumbo.  Pope is on the Santa Fe line from Albuquerque to El Paso. 
okladivjohn@...
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Stic Harris
 

Some more information and pictures (including a steam era freight car).  : )


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:18 PM John Moore via Groups.Io <okladivjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

The photo was taken at Pope, New Mexico, during the unloading of Jumbo.  Pope is on the Santa Fe line from Albuquerque to El Paso. 
okladivjohn@...



--


- Stic
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

IIRC Newport News. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

They were going to explode the gadget inside that so if it were a dud, they could recover the hideously valuable plutonium. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  
NKP Consist

Brian Carlson
 

While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. 

Brian J Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY 14227
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Jack Mullen
 

CISX 500, a 250 ton car owned by Carnegie-Illinois Steel Co. And yes, that's Jumbo.
We discussed this a few years back. Check the archives.
Jack Mullen
Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Bill Daniels
 

No, Tim. It’s not a reactor vessel. I’ve seen a lot of RV’s over the years and this is not one.

Bill Daniels


On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts