Date   

Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Tim O'Connor
 


Just FYI, if you folks haven't discovered YANDEX image search, you should try it. It's a Russian web site
equivalent to GOOGLE but the image search is positively brilliant - it blows away Google image search.
It instantly found many higher resolution images of Jumbo

www.yandex.com

And clicking on the Jumbo "similar images" link from Yandex = https://tinyurl.com/y5rs98qa

Tim O'





On 3/11/2019 11:07 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Don,


I'm not sure where the CIA story comes from, but this particular photo has been available and in the public domain in excess of FIFTY YEARS!  😉


That said, there has also been a tremendous amount of speculation on line about the rail car that was involved.  What I could find out:


"Jumbo" was fabricated by Babcox and Wilcox in Barberton Ohio (a different source says Pittsburgh, but I believe that is incorrect) after pretty much every other steel company refused to try. It was 25 feet long, 10 feet in diameter and weighed 214 tons. It was shipped in April 1945, on a circuitous route due to weight and clearance issues to the AT&SF siding in Pope, New Mexico, where it was transferred to a specially built 64-wheel trailer and hauled overland 25 miles to the Trinity site.


Sources differ on the flat car. The Los Alamos Historical Document Retrieval and Assessment Project's final report, Chapter 10, indicates that the car was specially built. http://www.lahdra.org/pubs/reports/In%20Pieces/Chapter%2010-%20Trinity%20Test.pdf

Another source indicated that it had been "specially modified".  


Close observation of the photos of the car 

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/jumbo

Jumbo was designed by Los Alamos lab to act as a failsafe device for the Trinity test explosion.

shows the following:

Light paint with dark lettering (this is highly atypical of the time)

Capacity         500,000

Load Limit      526,100

Light Weight   313,900

NEW  2-41 (note that this disproves the theory that the car was built for this move... but how many 500,000 lbs capacity cars were there in 1941-45???)


SO that leads to ORER. As best I can tell, and others have searched far more than I, it does not belong to any listing in the 1943 ORER. Interestingly, the paint scheme for B&W flats appears to be light, with dark stencils, but B&W does not have an ORER entry. I think that it may well be a B&W car and B&W chose not to list it, since it was not used for classic "interchange". Alternatively, it may have belonged to the US Government in some way. An example of another heavy duty flat not listed in the ORER, but seen all over the USA was Watervliet Arsenal #1, which also had a light paint scheme with dark lettering at times.


I'm afraid that in depth searches of Babcox and Wilcox and US Gummint sources may be required to further identify this flat car. 


Regards,

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar
 
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


BLI Tank Cars - Other prototypes?

Randy Hammill
 

I have several undecorated BLI tank cars.

I haven't seen a roster of the cars as-built, but I know that I need acid tank cars that would deliver the Stanley Works and other major hardware companies in New Britain. Based on the Sanborn maps, I've been able to identify several processes that were performed onsite, and what I think would be delivered in tank cars. Not all of these materials might have been delivered in tank cars either, so if somebody can clarify that too it would be great.

Pickling: Hydrochloric and/or sulfuric (if carbon steel it could be phosporic, nitric, and/or hydroflouric).
Japanning: naptha and/or turpentine, linseed oil.
Graphite Making: Silicon Carbide
Galvanizing: Sodium Sulfate or zinc, and Sodium Hydroxide
Lacquering: Lacquer and thinner.
Plating: I don't know what type though. Silver? Chrome?

Can anybody provide road numbers and lessees that would be appropriate for the BLI cars in my era that were built for any of these commodities, if any? If any of the RCW cars are appropriate too, that would be great, although it will be harder for me to get since I missed the original run. I'm hoping to get one of the current DuPont ones. Eventually I'd like to dig up some pictures so I can get some decals made.

Thanks!

Randy

Randy Hammill
Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954  | https//:blog.newbritainstation.com


Re: MILW Series 18000-21187 Series Rib Sides

Tim O'Connor
 


DA ladders were made for 10-6 tall cars. Des Plaines Hobbies sold 8 rung ladders for 10-0 cars.
CMA associates also sold 8 rung ladders (with the Canadian stirrup) but they're not as finely detailed.
And Red Caboose had 8 rung ladders for 10-6 cars too.

Are all of the Yarmouth ladders for 10-0 cars?? If true, that's very distressing to hear!

Tim O'Connor


On 3/11/2019 11:02 PM, Nelson Moyer wrote:

I started building Sunshine 41.1 and 41.3 last night, and I ran into a problem with the side ladders. Kit instructions tell me to add a rung to the seven rung ladders supplied, but the stiles area too short to extend from the bottom mounting location to the top mounting location (11 scale feet) on the sides, so adding a rung isn’t going to work. I checked YMW ladder stiles, and the longest one that might have worked is YMW-306, which has 10 scale foot stiles. Other than scratchbuilding ladders, what are other’s using for this car? Does the Detail Associates eight rung ladder  (229-6241 work? Prototype photos of these cars show the bottom and top rung are approximately eight inches from the end of the stile, so stiles with a rung at the very bottom or top of the stiles aren’t prototypically correct. I checked Intermountain parts, and they don’t list the eight rung ladder for their rib side car as a separate part.

 

Next issue, the kit instructions tell me to paint the car Milwaukee freight car red on all surfaces including truck side frames, however I have a photo dated 1940 of MILW 19174 clearly showing an unpainted roof and wood running board. Did they or did they not paint roofs on this car series?

 

Nelson Moyer


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Bruce Smith
 

Don,


I'm not sure where the CIA story comes from, but this particular photo has been available and in the public domain in excess of FIFTY YEARS!  😉


That said, there has also been a tremendous amount of speculation on line about the rail car that was involved.  What I could find out:


"Jumbo" was fabricated by Babcox and Wilcox in Barberton Ohio (a different source says Pittsburgh, but I believe that is incorrect) after pretty much every other steel company refused to try. It was 25 feet long, 10 feet in diameter and weighed 214 tons. It was shipped in April 1945, on a circuitous route due to weight and clearance issues to the AT&SF siding in Pope, New Mexico, where it was transferred to a specially built 64-wheel trailer and hauled overland 25 miles to the Trinity site.


Sources differ on the flat car. The Los Alamos Historical Document Retrieval and Assessment Project's final report, Chapter 10, indicates that the car was specially built. http://www.lahdra.org/pubs/reports/In%20Pieces/Chapter%2010-%20Trinity%20Test.pdf

Another source indicated that it had been "specially modified".  


Close observation of the photos of the car 

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/jumbo

www.atomicheritage.org
Jumbo was designed by Los Alamos lab to act as a failsafe device for the Trinity test explosion.

shows the following:

Light paint with dark lettering (this is highly atypical of the time)

Capacity         500,000

Load Limit      526,100

Light Weight   313,900

NEW  2-41 (note that this disproves the theory that the car was built for this move... but how many 500,000 lbs capacity cars were there in 1941-45???)


SO that leads to ORER. As best I can tell, and others have searched far more than I, it does not belong to any listing in the 1943 ORER. Interestingly, the paint scheme for B&W flats appears to be light, with dark stencils, but B&W does not have an ORER entry. I think that it may well be a B&W car and B&W chose not to list it, since it was not used for classic "interchange". Alternatively, it may have belonged to the US Government in some way. An example of another heavy duty flat not listed in the ORER, but seen all over the USA was Watervliet Arsenal #1, which also had a light paint scheme with dark lettering at times.


I'm afraid that in depth searches of Babcox and Wilcox and US Gummint sources may be required to further identify this flat car. 


Regards,

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar
 
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  




MILW Series 18000-21187 Series Rib Sides

Nelson Moyer
 

I started building Sunshine 41.1 and 41.3 last night, and I ran into a problem with the side ladders. Kit instructions tell me to add a rung to the seven rung ladders supplied, but the stiles area too short to extend from the bottom mounting location to the top mounting location (11 scale feet) on the sides, so adding a rung isn’t going to work. I checked YMW ladder stiles, and the longest one that might have worked is YMW-306, which has 10 scale foot stiles. Other than scratchbuilding ladders, what are other’s using for this car? Does the Detail Associates eight rung ladder  (229-6241 work? Prototype photos of these cars show the bottom and top rung are approximately eight inches from the end of the stile, so stiles with a rung at the very bottom or top of the stiles aren’t prototypically correct. I checked Intermountain parts, and they don’t list the eight rung ladder for their rib side car as a separate part.

 

Next issue, the kit instructions tell me to paint the car Milwaukee freight car red on all surfaces including truck side frames, however I have a photo dated 1940 of MILW 19174 clearly showing an unpainted roof and wood running board. Did they or did they not paint roofs on this car series?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 


Re: C&O six-axle heavy duty flat

Tim O'Connor
 


I don't think it's a well hole flat. It appears to have a flat deck. But clearly
a high capacity car. The last two digits of the number are clearly 52.

C&O 80950 to 80959 were FM flats with 250,000 lbs capacity. So I think the car number
in the photo must be 80952.

Tim O'



On 3/11/2019 8:41 PM, Garth Groff wrote:
Claus,

I wish we could see the whole number. In 1958, C&O had eight well flat cars. Cars numbered 80975 and 80977-80979 were 52' 8" overall. Cars 80996-80999 were 62' 6" overall. Both groups rode on 6 -wheel trucks and had a capacity of 250,000 pounds.

These cars are not shown in Carl Shaver's FREIGHT CAR EQUIPMENT OF THE CHESAPEAKE & OHIO RAILWAY, AUGUST 1, 1937 (revised ed., 1989). When they were built is a mystery, but the photo in question is dated 1951.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 3/11/19 7:01 PM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) wrote:
Hi List members,
 
Nice image of a C&O six-axle heavy duty flat in what is clearly the steam era on the Canadian National.
 
 
Claus Schlund



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: C&O six-axle heavy duty flat

Tim O'Connor
 

Claus

I found that image in the Google LIFE magazine collection about 10 years ago. There are quite a
few wonderful railroad (and general steam era) images in the collection.

Tim O'




On 3/11/2019 7:01 PM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) wrote:
Hi List members,
 
Nice image of a C&O six-axle heavy duty flat in what is clearly the steam era on the Canadian National.
 
 
Claus Schlund


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Colorado Fuel and Iron Company

Scott
 

Not much left of the CFI now.  Much of it has been torn down.  I think they still do some reheat work in there somewhere.  The slag piles stretch for what seems like miles.

Scott McDonald


Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Tony Thompson
 

Spen Kellogg wrote:

And missed its target, the Mitsubishi shipyards, by about five miles,
detonating over a section of Nagasaki that housed a Christian community.
You can still see the headstones and angels in the cemetery, most of
them headless, that were near the explosion.
Not only that, but the range of hills between the detonation point and Mitsubishi meant that little damage was done to the intended target. One reason you hear REALLY little about the Nagasaki bombing.
But likely we should get back to freight cars . . .

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: C&O six-axle heavy duty flat

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Claus,

I wish we could see the whole number. In 1958, C&O had eight well flat cars. Cars numbered 80975 and 80977-80979 were 52' 8" overall. Cars 80996-80999 were 62' 6" overall. Both groups rode on 6 -wheel trucks and had a capacity of 250,000 pounds.

These cars are not shown in Carl Shaver's FREIGHT CAR EQUIPMENT OF THE CHESAPEAKE & OHIO RAILWAY, AUGUST 1, 1937 (revised ed., 1989). When they were built is a mystery, but the photo in question is dated 1951.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 3/11/19 7:01 PM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) wrote:
Hi List members,
 
Nice image of a C&O six-axle heavy duty flat in what is clearly the steam era on the Canadian National.
 
 
Claus Schlund


Two more images

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Rob M.
 

In one of the postwar atomic testing videos online (can't remember which one) there is an absolutely beautiful waterfront scene with an SP steam switcher working a cut of cars at the dock with carloads of material to loaded onto ships headed to the Pacific Proving Ground.   
 
Interesting anachronism... steam era technology in the atomic age.  

Rob Mondichak


Re: Colorado Fuel and Iron Company

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Oh yes, I had intended to mention, notice the dual gauge track...
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
To: STMFC
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:00 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Colorado Fuel and Iron Company

Hi List Members,
 
The image linked below shows some steam era freight cars at the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. No date is given, but it looks to me like early 1900's
 
 
A better view of the same image without annoying artifacts can be found at the link below...
 
 
Too bad the scan does not have better resolution.
 
I think the boxcar closest to the camera might be lettered for Florence & Cripple Creek.
 
Claus Schlund
 


C&O six-axle heavy duty flat

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List members,
 
Nice image of a C&O six-axle heavy duty flat in what is clearly the steam era on the Canadian National.
 
 
Claus Schlund


Colorado Fuel and Iron Company

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
The image linked below shows some steam era freight cars at the Colorado Fuel and Iron Company. No date is given, but it looks to me like early 1900's
 
 
A better view of the same image without annoying artifacts can be found at the link below...
 
 
Too bad the scan does not have better resolution.
 
I think the boxcar closest to the camera might be lettered for Florence & Cripple Creek.
 
Claus Schlund
 


Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 3/11/2019 2:20 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
Yes, THAT’s “The Gadget”. It’s far smaller than the huge “Jumbo”
containment vessel that started this thread.

As preciously mentioned, “The Gadget” was to have been placed inside
“Jumbo”, to contain the nuclear components (Plutonium) if the chain
reaction failed to ignite, and just the conventional explosives went
off. Plutonium is **NASTY** stuff!

However, that was not carried out. The Gadget was successfully
detonated as shown in this photo, without containment, atop a 100 ft.
tower.

Interestingly, The Gadget was a Plutonium bomb. The scientists were
less sure that it would work, hence the test. The first A-bomb
actually used in combat, “Little Boy” at Hiroshima, was a Uranium
bomb. The mechanics of the two types of bombs were quite different.
Those in charge were sufficiently confident in the Uranium bomb to use
it without a test. A few days later an operational Plutonium bomb,
“Fat Man” was dropped on Nagasaki.
And missed its target, the Mitsubishi shipyards, by about five miles,
detonating over a section of Nagasaki that housed a Christian community.
You can still see the headstones and angels in the cemetery, most of
them headless, that were near the explosion.

Spen Kellogg


Re: NKP Consist

Allen Rueter
 

A is for Auto




On Monday, March 11, 2019, 15:05, Gary Roe <wabashrr@...> wrote:

Brian,

I am curious as to why the 4 Erie cars near the rear of the train were shown as "A" cars.  I looked them up in the ORER, and they are box cars.  Other box cars are shown as "B" cars.

I saw no Flat cars in the consist, and only 1 Gondola.  Very interesting info!

gary roe
quincy, illinois




On ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎55‎:‎38‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:


While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. 

Brian J Carlson, P.E.
Cheektowaga NY 14227


Re: NKP Consist

Dave Nelson
 

In other wheel reports I’ve seen the A signified auto car.  Is that the case here?

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gary Roe
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist

 

Brian,

 

I am curious as to why the 4 Erie cars near the rear of the train were shown as "A" cars.  I looked them up in the ORER, and they are box cars.  Other box cars are shown as "B" cars.

 

I saw no Flat cars in the consist, and only 1 Gondola.  Very interesting info!

 

gary roe

quincy, illinois

 

 

 

 

On ‎Monday‎, ‎March‎ ‎11‎, ‎2019‎ ‎11‎:‎55‎:‎38‎ ‎AM‎ ‎CDT, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:

 

 

While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. 

Brian J Carlson, PE.
Cheektowaga NY 14227


Re: steam era freight car images, dating from 1900 to 1942

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 3/11/2019 9:30 AM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) wrote:

Hi Craig and List Members,
 
Craig, you are refering to this image I believe...
 
 
I like the fact that one can zoom in a whole lot for some very nice detail viewing.
 
Note in the above image the roundhouse, with the locomotives all positioned with the front facing toward the turntable. We mostly see these views with the front of the locomotive facing AWAY from the turntable... I wonder if this was normal practice or was done for the benefit of the photograph.
 

Claus,

I would agree with you that usually we see tenders, but if you look at the roof and the smoke stacks you will see that standard practice at this roundhouse seems to be with the locomotives facing the turntable. The stacks are all close to the doors.

Spen Kellogg


Re: Unidentified deep well flatcar

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Yes, THAT’s “The Gadget”. It’s far smaller than the huge “Jumbo” containment vessel that started this thread.

As preciously mentioned, “The Gadget” was to have been placed inside “Jumbo”, to contain the nuclear components (Plutonium) if the chain reaction failed to ignite, and just the conventional explosives went off. Plutonium is **NASTY** stuff!

However, that was not carried out. The Gadget was successfully detonated as shown in this photo, without containment, atop a 100 ft. tower.

Interestingly, The Gadget was a Plutonium bomb. The scientists were less sure that it would work, hence the test. The first A-bomb actually used in combat, “Little Boy” at Hiroshima, was a Uranium bomb. The mechanics of the two types of bombs were quite different. Those in charge were sufficiently confident in the Uranium bomb to use it without a test. A few days later an operational Plutonium bomb, “Fat Man” was dropped on Nagasaki.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

First A bomb 
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 
<image1.jpeg>

25901 - 25920 of 188713