Date   

CN flats

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I know that the CN had straight side flats akin to the Tichy kit, but they also had cars in the 659000 series (the number Red Caboose uses). Were these also straight side cars? Did they have 12 pockets? - John


Re: SP Overnight scheme

Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehrich wrote:

Tony - I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
Same car body, John, just assembled from separate cast metal pieces rather
than one piece of styrene: rectangular panel roof, 4-5 Dreadnaught ends,
(poorly rendered) AAR underframe. So it wasn't useful at all.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: SP Overnight scheme

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Tony - I think the MDC car is an attempt to model the Santa Fe 7 panel Pratt
truss cars, but on their 1937 AAR box car body. But if I remember, their
earlier cast metal version had a Howe truss, which might have been a little
more useful on that car body.
And the problem is compounded by the fact that it doesn't LOOK like a
single-sheathed car, with too wide grooves for the boards, too shallow
relief for the bracing and lacking that "sunken cheek" look (like someone
with their false teeth out) of a true SS car. Finally, because of the
misfit of side to body, the ribs don't even reach the top and bottom of the
car. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: <thompson@signaturepress.com>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SP Overnight scheme


John Nehrich writes:
MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know
the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
As hard as you like, John. Beyond the 40-ft. length, I'd say the cars
are
totally different. Doors, BTW, are also wrong on the MDC kit; so I'd say
it
was about a complete miss all around.
If I recall correctly, the MDC car seems to be aimed at resembling the
WW
II cars built to War Emergency standards, but (like Athearn) they used a
bunch of other components on hand, e.g. ends. Thus the car has, like so
many MDC products, no prototype at all--as far as I know.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history




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Re: SP Overnight scheme

thompson@...
 

John Nehrich writes:
MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
As hard as you like, John. Beyond the 40-ft. length, I'd say the cars are
totally different. Doors, BTW, are also wrong on the MDC kit; so I'd say it
was about a complete miss all around.
If I recall correctly, the MDC car seems to be aimed at resembling the WW
II cars built to War Emergency standards, but (like Athearn) they used a
bunch of other components on hand, e.g. ends. Thus the car has, like so
many MDC products, no prototype at all--as far as I know.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: SP Overnight scheme

John W Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - MDC has this version posted on their web site. Yes, I agree it
would be far too wrong even the scheme is correct, but it is even
"wronger" if the scheme was never used on anything other than the IDE
steel box cars.
What I am trying to do is list objectively all the points of
differences for each kit version and let the modeler make a decision on
that, not on bissful ignorance. And even if someone decides to go ahead
and still get it, at least they can be prepared for critism. And their
friends can also be prepared to critize. (And then all go upstairs and
indulge in some of that cheap bulk wine and forget the matter.)
- John

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

You guys might know what the ORIGINAL scheme was, prior to WWII, but I
don't. MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
I waited for Thompson to respond, so I wouldn't get jeered at again, but
he's apparently busy working on a book. I haven't seen the MDC model in
Overnight paint/lettering, so I don't know which scheme they used, but the
original pre-WW-II Overnight scheme was applied to steel sheathed (not wood
sheathed) SP B-50-15 single sheathed box cars and consisted of black with
the sides outlined in Daylight yellow-orange and standard lettering (no
heralds) also in Daylight yellow-orange. After the war, many of these cars
received a later Overnight scheme which was similar to that applied in 1946
to the B-50-24s. This, too, was all black but had white lettering, a
yellow and black SP herald to the left of the door above the road name
(spelled out) and numbers, and a red and yellow arrow/ball Overnight emblem
to the right of the door above the dimensional data.

All more or less academic, in my view, since the MDC model is a hopelessly
inaccurate representation of the prototype SP cars (or any other prototype
cars, for that matter). Aside from having wood instead of steel side
sheathing, it's way too tall and has the wrong ends, roof, doors,
underframe, and trucks. Even to consider it as a stand-in, you'd have to
have seriously defective vision. (Fortunately, saying so on this list will
not bring on more hostility from the "three feet away" FCL subscribers.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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Re: "TW" reefers

John W Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

But getting back to the original reason I asked about this - since the TW
cars lasted until '49 at least, which of the Red Caboose cars might have
lasted past 1938 or were repainted in more modest schemes?
I know the Chateau Martin one doesn't even got back to billboard
reefer days, but the scheme itself is c. late steam (even if they had
ex-GPEX type cars, not former wood ice bunker reefer cars, at least that's
all I've ever seen besides one single-dome/compartment tank car in the ACF
book).
Some of the other schemes even Red Caboose admits are fictional,
but if the scheme itself is clearly out of place for post '38.
If I was modeling the 1920's, for instance, and there were some
neat wine cars available c. 1916, I would feel that whether or not the
schemes were accurate or just plausible, no way would I run them without
cutting into the feel of the period of Prohibition, bootleg, Elliot Ness,
speakeasys, and the like. So the question I have is do the Red Caboose
schemes do the same for any post-'38 layout?
Which brings me to another point. I still am confused by the
billboard ban. It seems that a careful reading of it actually was not as
restrictive as we tend to think of it. Yet I think it had a real "wet
blanket" effect beyond its narrow reading. I look at photos and see a
certain type of billboard scheme, promoting products, not just a big
version of the company's name, and when I find out the date of the photo,
(such as in the accompanying caption), it is always pre-'38. And I think
that the Red Caboose schemes, except for maybe the Ambrose wine one (which
is fictitious) would not have survived the ban. (Maybe what is confusing
is trying to read a period into a made-up scheme, as ones pre-'38 would be
clearly more promotional, so maybe the made up ones are too vague for
either before or after this date.)
- John


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice

Richard Hendrickson
 

Keith Jordan wrote:

Actually, what Dubin said referring to how Pullman Green came about was
this:

(quote) ...The result was a dark olive green originally called Brewster
green and later referred to as Pullman Green--more specifically No.70-10
geen. It wasn't a pretty color. It was utilitarian. It withstood weather
well and it didn't show dirt. (Years later, about 1960, when Canadian
National Railways was revising its image, research revealed that urban dirt
is black and rural dirt is yellow. Urban dirt and rural dirt simply amounted
to more pigment on top of Pullman green, which was a yellowish
black.(unquote).
Thanks, Keith. That's a good deal easier to accept.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice

Keith Jordan <kjordan@...>
 

John Nehrich wrote:

PS - I had thought it was copper oxide that made the Pullman Green, too, but
Arthur Dubin in Kalmbach's Pullman Painting Guide said that Pullman combined
the yellow of rural dirt with the black of the industrial areas to make the
color....
Then Richard wrote:

Rural dirt yellow and industrial black make Pullman Green? I wonder where
Dubin came up with that notion, which I find seriously lacking in
credibility. Copper oxide pigment was what the Santa Fe used to make the
olive green (somewhat lighter than Pullman Green) they used on passenger
cars, and it seems reasonable to me that the Santa Fe was following common
industry practice in this regard.
================================

Actually, what Durbin said referring to how Pullman Green came about was
this:

(quote) ...The result was a dark olive green originally called Brewster
green and later referred to as Pullman Green--more specifically No.70-10
geen. It wasn't a pretty color. It was utilitarian. It withstood weather
well and it didn't show dirt. (Years later, about 1960, when Canadian
National Railways was revising its image, research revealed that urban dirt
is black and rural dirt is yellow. Urban dirt and rural dirt simply amounted
to more pigment on top of Pullman green, which was a yellowish
black.(unquote)

Keith Jordan


Re: Other stuff I came across

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@mediaone.net]
I'm surprised bauxite/alumina would travel west over Sherman,
since a lot of it came into Portland OR and was loaded onto
trains for the trip up the Columbia and into Montana.
Before the war there was a very large aluminum
facility right outside Portland too.
Must depend on the year. 1Q1950 there were no originating shipments of
Alumina in either Washington or Oregon.

Dave Nelson


Re: Other stuff I came across

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
Dave, I'm curious. Any notion of whether the coal mileage was higher or
lower for the other 59%?

Well, yes. The report shows all 100%. I grabbed a sample. I suppose you
now want the rest too?

0-49: 8%
50-99: 10%
100-199: 16%
200-399: 41%
400-599: 21%
600-999: 3%

I'd gather that Sherman Hill is more than 999 miles from the Pochontas coal
belts... even in the dark.

I'm also curious about bauxite. There are photos of
a bauxite train...loaded in box cars no less...going west over
Sherman Hill in the 50s. Wonder what its destination was
and how often this happened?
Bauxite is included in commodity class 311: Aluminum ore. Per the 1%
waybill sample, a full 40% moved 2000-2999 miles by rail (26% in the 200-399
range and 21% in the 400-599 miles range).

Having said that, I turned to the Minerals Report of 1950 and found this
other data: Arkansas produced 98% of the national total of Bauxite
(1,552,047 tons), most of which got refined nearby into Alumina. This sum
was only 43% of the nations consumption. Alumina was refined at 4 plants:
Alcoa's mobile AL. was the largest. They refined imported alumina. Their
East St. Louis plant refined Alumina from Arkansas. The Kaiser plant was in
Baton Rouge, LA. and worked over South American Alumina. Lastly was the
Reynolds plant in Hurricane Creek, Arkansas, which had the largest capacity
but apparently was under utilized. The G.S.A. purchased large quantities
for the national strategic reserve, which in this case was in Arkansas.
Most. but not all, Alumina went into metalitic Aluminum; some went into
abrasives.

The chapter on Aluminum states there were 11 (mostly unnamed) reduction
plants, several of which were inactive (Massena NY., Baden NC., Listerhill
AL.). It also states new plants were being built in Wenatchee WA., Jones
Mills, Ark., Corpus Cristi TX., Chalmette LA., and Klaispell MT.

I do not have the state to state distribution of the Products of mines, but
from the quarterly commodity reports 1947-50 it's clear shipment volume
fluctuated wildly -- 2:1 or 3:1 fluctuations from quarter to quarter.
1Q1950 was in the middle to low end. In this quarter, the largest shipments
of commodity class 311 were from AL - 27.5k tons, Ark - 90k tons, IL - 38k
tons, LA. - 84.8k tons are the 4 largest states of origin and WA - 132.8k
tons was by far the largest state of destination. Again, Quarterly data.

Lastly, from the 1950 Commodity reports from class 1 railroads, the C&S
bridged 95k tons in 1950; the CBQ bridged 219k tons; MP originated 127k tons
(most of which terminated online), received & terminated 316k tons, and
bridged another 381k tons; the UP received & terminated 232k tons in the
same year. No traffic to speak of on the SP, DRGW, or WP. And as I stated
earlier, I was unable to find the damn book so I was unable to obtain the
annual data from the GN, NP, TNO, ATSF, CNW... as I had planned to do,
which, with what I have in hand, would have given me 95+% of the tonnage
moved west of the Missisippi.

At any rate, it appears to me that that photo you saw was indicative of an
ongoing, large volume movement of alumina, no doubt to Washington. The data
suggests the UP had half of the inbound (rail) tonnage to Washington. I
would guess the other half was a CB&Q-GN plus C&S-NP movement.

Dave Nelson


Re: Other stuff I came across

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Major aluminum plants were constructed on the Columbia River ( near The
Dalles for one) to support WWII aircraft production...lots of electricity
required
I'm surprised bauxite/alumina would travel west over Sherman, since a lot of it
came into Portland OR and was loaded onto trains for the trip up the Columbia
and into Montana. Before the war there was a very large aluminum facility right
outside Portland too.

On the other hand, wasn't there some bauxite mining in Missouri, or somewhere
in the midwest? Can you tell from the photo whose box cars are loaded with the
bauxite? That might give some clue to its origins.


Re: Date of Change in NYC Painting Practice (was Intermountain kits)

Richard Hendrickson
 

John Nehric wrote:

PS - I had thought it was copper oxide that made the Pullman Green, too, but
Arthur Dubin in Kalmbach's Pullman Painting Guide said that Pullman combined
the yellow of rural dirt with the black of the industrial areas to make the
color....
Rural dirt yellow and industrial black make Pullman Green? I wonder where
Dubin came up with that notion, which I find seriously lacking in
credibility. Copper oxide pigment was what the Santa Fe used to make the
olive green (somewhat lighter than Pullman Green) they used on passenger
cars, and it seems reasonable to me that the Santa Fe was following common
industry practice in this regard.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: SP Overnight scheme

Richard Hendrickson
 

You guys might know what the ORIGINAL scheme was, prior to WWII, but I
don't. MDC offers their SS 40 foot
7 panel Pratt truss car in an overnight black scheme, and while I know the
car itself is too tall, wrong ends, roof, etc., the SP did have 7 panel
Pratt truss box cars. So hard do we laugh at this version?
I waited for Thompson to respond, so I wouldn't get jeered at again, but
he's apparently busy working on a book. I haven't seen the MDC model in
Overnight paint/lettering, so I don't know which scheme they used, but the
original pre-WW-II Overnight scheme was applied to steel sheathed (not wood
sheathed) SP B-50-15 single sheathed box cars and consisted of black with
the sides outlined in Daylight yellow-orange and standard lettering (no
heralds) also in Daylight yellow-orange. After the war, many of these cars
received a later Overnight scheme which was similar to that applied in 1946
to the B-50-24s. This, too, was all black but had white lettering, a
yellow and black SP herald to the left of the door above the road name
(spelled out) and numbers, and a red and yellow arrow/ball Overnight emblem
to the right of the door above the dimensional data.

All more or less academic, in my view, since the MDC model is a hopelessly
inaccurate representation of the prototype SP cars (or any other prototype
cars, for that matter). Aside from having wood instead of steel side
sheathing, it's way too tall and has the wrong ends, roof, doors,
underframe, and trucks. Even to consider it as a stand-in, you'd have to
have seriously defective vision. (Fortunately, saying so on this list will
not bring on more hostility from the "three feet away" FCL subscribers.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Other stuff I came across

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ed and friends,

When I was stationed in Long Beach with the U.S. Coast Guard, I
occasionally ventured down to the harbor (rare, but then I sailed a desk
for eight years). Near the Metropolitan Terminal was a large banana
dock, probably one of the main entry points to the vast California
retail market. I doubt that it was as big as the ones in Florida or New
Orleans, but an awful lot of fruit used to go up those conveyor belts.
Unfortunately, by the late 1970s it all went into trucks.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Ed Workman wrote:



Fer instance, Bannanas: some small quantities into NJ. and CA.
There were PFE cars dedicated to this service (That is, labelled "Banana
Service") between L.A. Harbor and Vernon, a tiny industrial city near the
southeast corner of central Los Angeles.


Re: CA Wine in NY (was "TW" reefer designation)

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dave,

The short answer about shipping whole grapes versus just the juice is
that most red wines require fermentation on the skins and seeds to
produce the correct acidity and color. Even from deep red grapes, the
free-run juice is practically clear, only moderately acidic, and very
sweet. You can't make a good claret (or whatever) without the skins and
seeds. Instead you get a very, very light "blush".

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:

As for freight car content, I am reminded of something in a Farrington book
about wine grapes being shipped to NY vinters, ca. late 40's. Hungarian
Tokays. Why would one ship the grapes and not just the juice?


Re: Other stuff I came across

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

....I'm also curious about bauxite. There are photos of
a bauxite train...loaded in box cars no less...going west over Sherman Hill
in the 50s. Wonder what its destination was and how often this happened?
Mike, in the 1950s some Bauxite was mined in the southeastern US, but the
most important source was Jamaica, with Jamaican Bauxite being transported
by ship to Gulf Coast ports. During WW II, when there was a tremendous
increase in demand for aluminum, primarily for use in aircraft
construction, several large plants were constructed in the Pacific
Northwest because ample hydroelectric power was available and the
production of aluminum requires a great deal of electricity. No doubt
bauxite trains bringing southeastern and Jamaican ore to the plants near
the Columbia River ran fairly frequently on the UP, which would have
provided the western part of the most direct route.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Other stuff I came across

Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
 

I'm also curious about bauxite. There are photos of
a bauxite train...loaded in box cars no less...going west over Sherman Hill
in the 50s. Wonder what its destination was and how often this happened?

Mike Brock
Major aluminum plants were constructed on the Columbia River ( near The
Dalles for one) to support WWII aircraft production...lots of electricity
required


Re: Other stuff I came across

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

Samples: 68% of sugar beets travelled less than 50 miles. 60% of frozen
fruit travelled 2000-2999 miles. 41% of coal went 200-399 miles. 33% of
beer went 600-999 miles. etc.

Dave, I'm curious. Any notion of whether the coal mileage was higher or
lower for the other 59%? I'm also curious about bauxite. There are photos of
a bauxite train...loaded in box cars no less...going west over Sherman Hill
in the 50s. Wonder what its destination was and how often this happened?

Mike Brock


Re: Other stuff I came across

Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
 


Fer instance, Bannanas: some small quantities into NJ. and CA.
There were PFE cars dedicated to this service (That is, labelled "Banana
Service") between L.A. Harbor and Vernon, a tiny industrial city near the
southeast corner of central Los Angeles.


Re: CA Wine in NY (was "TW" reefer designation)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Jeff English wrote (defensively):

AFAIK, the only NY wineries that bring in CA wine are the
larger corporate operations such as Taylor. There is a
considerable wine industry in four regions* of NY which consists
primarily of small, family-operated wineries that produce estate-
bottled wines of varieties that lend themselves to the climatic
conditions. If you can look that far down your nose, Richard, you
might actually find some of these acceptable if not wildly fabulous.
Been there, done that. Some are, indeed, acceptable (barely). And, as I
certainly haven't had the opportunity to try all of them, it's entirely
possible that there are a few real gems I don't know about. In my
admittedly limited experience, however, I have been singularly unimpressed
with New York State wines. Though fine wines are produced in many regions
of the world (e.g., Australia, New Zealand, Chile, as well as Europe and
parts of California and the Pacific Northwest), the fact that wine grapes
will grow in upstate New York, Southern Ontario, Virginia, etc. doesn't
mean that it's possible to make good wines with them. I might add that
some very bad wines are made in California, and not all of them are cheap
wines in boxes or jugs. But the fact remains that, owing to certain
combinations of soil and climate, some growing areas on the West Coast
produce wines that are vastly superior to those made anywhere else in North
America. That could certainly change. Twenty years ago, I wouldn't have
expected much from eastern Washington or the Willamette Valley, but they
are now producing some excellent wines of several varieties. However,
they've been making wine in New York for several generations with results
that don't live up to their sometimes rather pretentious hype. No
reflection on the Empire State, which has a great many other virtues to
recommend it, but wine is really not, in my opinion, one of them - though
I'm open to being proven wrong.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

188441 - 188460 of 188615