Date   

Re: "Car builder" is not a name

John Sykes III
 

Scott:

Maybe or maybe not.  Several of the car builders had proprietary parts such as doors, ends and roofs.  ACF and Pullman Standard come to mind.  Also, some of the smaller builders got more than just the ends, roofs and doors from vendors -  I have an add from Youngstown that extolls how they supplied the car side panels to PFE for some of their new steel reefers (I think they were R-40-25s).  Plus a lot of PFE R-30 reefers had Bettendorf underframes.  Bettendorf trucks are used the way we use the name Kleenex today (more correctly they should be called Bettendorf-style trucks).  AAR took the best features of Bettendorf U-section trucks, married them with the best features of PRR 2D-F8 trucks and they became the AAR Type-Y or trucks.

Then there are items with trademarked names, like Dreadnaught and Murphy - trademarks of Standard Railway Equipment Company,  the owner of which happened to be named William Murphy (not sure of  his first name).  SREC still exists as "Stanray" after their X pattern roofs.

One other glitch.  Some companies sold licenses to other manufacturers, so Barber S-2 Ride Control trucks begat ASF A-3 trucks, etc.

The list goes on and on.  I'm sure some of the others here will chime in with more examples.

-- John


Re: Throwback Tuesday: Ulrich GS Gon Ad, Model Railroader, October 1959

Benjamin Hom
 

Rob Mondichak asked:
"I've justified an SP G50- on my east coast coal hauling branch as something bringing in product from Espee territory.  Need you SP guys to school me on what types of non-aggregate loads may be carried to the east coast in one of these cars."

Lumber.  Lots and lots of lumber.


Ben Hom


Re: Gondola Load aka WP car aka WP 20551-series aka WP painting standards....

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Fred,

The 1937 and 1945 boxcars were built by Mt. Vernon. The 1947 cars were Pullman-Standard.

So as I have said before, the WP was anything but consistent. The builders' photo might have been a one-off, a mistake, or maybe a test for eliminating the black ends. There are so many mysteries about this road.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 4/2/19 5:06 PM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Garth,
Illinois RR Museum, Pullman Library could have a WP PS-1 picture.
1951 is just out of my 1950-modeling/collecting scope, but you could ask them.
The 1937, 1945 and 1947 batches were all built by Mount Vernon, or am I missing something?
Weird thing is that the 1936-built WP 19001-19050 double door car has black ends according to the stencilling instructions, but clearly has red ends & roof on the Sacramento builders photo.
cheers, Fred Jansz


Re: Throwback Tuesday: Ulrich GS Gon Ad, Model Railroader, October 1959

Rob M.
 

We in O scale are blessed to have a wonderful and accurate scale model of G-50-9/12 GS gons in brass courtesy of the late Pat O'Boyle and his Pacific Limited.  Beautiful models and a signature of the west in the same vein as the ATSF Caswell Gons, of which we are not fortunate to have in quarter inch scale.

I've justified an SP G50- on my east coast coal hauling branch as something bringing in product from Espee territory.  Need you SP guys to school me on what types of non-aggregate loads may be carried to the east coast in one of these cars.

Suggestions please?

Rob Mondichak


Re: reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Eric Lombard
 

Gents, That car is from NJI&I 2000-2149 built ACF Lot 9553, 1923. they had an inside height of 10-6. ACF builder photos are available on the Westerfield ACF photos disk.


On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:12 PM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520    

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 

That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.


Ben Hom



Re: Gondola Load aka WP car aka WP 20551-series aka WP painting standards....

Fred Jansz
 

Garth,
Illinois RR Museum, Pullman Library could have a WP PS-1 picture.
1951 is just out of my 1950-modeling/collecting scope, but you could ask them.
The 1937, 1945 and 1947 batches were all built by Mount Vernon, or am I missing something?
Weird thing is that the 1936-built WP 19001-19050 double door car has black ends according to the stencilling instructions, but clearly has red ends & roof on the Sacramento builders photo.
cheers, Fred Jansz


reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Andy Carlson
 

One of the problems I had with the Walthers 50' SS auto box cars were the diagonals were quite removed from the vertical, more than just about every example I have looked at. This would of course hindered the transfer of forces which a good truss needs to be affective. Of course the grooves between boards was a deal killer. But the out-of-the box thinking of turning it into a 40' car, that I like!!! Reminds me of the Mainline Modeler NP GS kit bash of swapping left and right pieces of the sides to correct the truss arrangement. This is what makes this hobby fun.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 1:35:07 PM PDT, Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:


try this
 
 
Steve Hile


Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520   

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 
 
That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.
 
 
Ben Hom


_.
_._,_._,_


Re: reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Steve,
 
Thanks.
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 4:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car
 
try this
 
 
Steve Hile
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 3:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Hi Ben,
 
Do you happen to know the Walthers item number for that car?  The replacement end with end doors has piqued my interest.
 
Thanks,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: Benjamin Hom
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 3:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car
 
Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520   

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 
 
That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.
 
 
Ben Hom



Re: reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Steve and Barb Hile
 



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 3:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Hi Ben,
 
Do you happen to know the Walthers item number for that car?  The replacement end with end doors has piqued my interest.
 
Thanks,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
From: Benjamin Hom
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 3:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car
 
Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520   

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 
 
That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.
 
 
Ben Hom



Re: reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Ben,
 
Do you happen to know the Walthers item number for that car?  The replacement end with end doors has piqued my interest.
 
Thanks,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Benjamin Hom
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 3:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car
 
Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520   

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 
 
That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.
 
 
Ben Hom



Re: reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car

Benjamin Hom
 

Claus Schlund asked:
"Any thoughts on the reporting marks for the 40ft single sheathed auto box car shown in the image linked below? The resolution is just not quite good enough..."
https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM86520    

Tony Wagner replied"
"NJI&I, a subsidiary of the Wabash, possibly 3500-3599 1 car in my 1-1-50 ORER. I'd guess its a clone of several thousand WAB cars in various 40000 thru 49000 number series  with 11' or 12' doors as both ordinary XM box cars or XAR auto or XME and XAP auto parts cars."

That's what I thought at first, but the Wabash cars all had radial roofs and the car in the photo has a peaked roof.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/wabssautomain.html 

That got my interest as it appears to be an opportunity to use that fantasy HO scale Walthers 50 ft auto boxcar for something by cutting out a set of diagonals shortens the model to the neighborhood of 40 ft.  The ends will need to be replaced, which isn't too difficult, especially as the kit is engineered with a separate A end to allow swapping a solid end or end door.


Ben Hom



Re: Gondola Load aka WP car aka WP 20551-series aka WP painting standards....

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Fred,

Thank you for your enlightening post. I must concede that you "have the goods" vis-a-vis at least for some of these early cars. I'm going to print out your message and keep in my files for future reference.

As for the 16001-series, I only know them from a few survivors as all-FCR, and these were all likely repainted later (SN, one CCT, one S&TE, one Pickering Lumber--now at Railtown 1897). Thanks calling out the 16001's.

I too would love to know what about the1945 Mt. Vernon cars. Finding builder's photos would be a plus.  I would be happy to change my views about the black ends for 1945 and 1947 if anyone can come up with documentation.

As the 1947 cars were Pullman-built, I would not be surprised if such a photo exists somewhere. Aren't most of them in Canada? Specifications to the manufacturers not only specified brands of brake equipment, running boards, etc. (Known as "specialties" in the trade, but also called out paint colors or car cement applications. I've seen one of these for the 1958 GS gondolas. Surely the others might exist in manufacturers' records, or in WP records at the CSRM, WRM or Portola. Whether such paperwork has been cataloged is a problem.

You are absolutely correct about the nomenclature of the white paint. Before 1949 it had aluminum as a carrier (I think that's the proper term), but was pigment white. This has caused a lot of heartache and debate for years in the modeling community. It isn't just about freight cars. The orange used on SN freight motors is also subject to a lot of debate.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 4/2/19 11:30 AM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Garth & Ed and others interested in WP,

Unfortunately I have never found painting & stencilling guides for the 3 series of 1937, 1945 & 1947 built WP 20001-20800 box cars.

However, I posess WP stencil-guides dated 1936 of the WP 14001, 16001 and 19001 cars that mention: black roof & ends. Also have a picture of a new 18417 re-painted that way with a SAC 1-37 date (BLT 6-17). So one could say at least in 1936-1937 WP followed the black ends & roofs fashion.

Which implies that if you have one of the Speedwitch K114 kits of the 1937-built 9'6" box cars, it would need black ends & roof as built.
In fact, this is what I've always thought, looking at the builders photo of WP 20200 that's included in the Speedwitch instructions. Ends painted shiny black! (not car cement).

With the next repaint (if any) these cars would be WP-red all over out of cost-reduction, except trucks & underbody still in black.
But in my scale world one car could easily still have black roof & ends in my modeling year 1950!

It is my opinion the WP 20551-20800 series of 1947 MtVernon-built cars was delivered in WP red all over, except trucks. At least I have never seen a picture of such a car with dark ends or roof.
But yes, the 1951 PS-1 series was delivered with black car cement roofs & ends.

BTW: yes, 1949 was the date 'silver' stencilling was introduced.
However; the 1936 instructions mention 'aluminum' lettering. This I understand is white paint mixed with aluminum particles, so it reflects light. In our 1:87 world this would mean plain white I guess.

best regards, Fred Jansz


Re: "Car builder" is not a name

Tim O'Connor
 


Scott, you must not have read Alice in Wonderland or you would know the difference between what
something is called, what its name is called, and what its name actually is.

:-)


On 4/2/2019 11:33 AM, D. Scott Chatfield wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:

>While many have called the 3 panel door on the X29 a “CRECo” door, in reality it is not a product of the Chicago Railway Equipment Co and is more correctly called a "car builder's door" ......

STOP!

There is no such thing as a "car builder's door" or "car builder's end" or whatever.  It is not a proper name, but a placeholder.  When you see "car builder" on a general arrangement diagram or other paperwork it means the railroad (buyer) let the carbuilder decide who to buy that part from rather than specifying the source itself.

Period.  End of rant.


Scott Chatfield



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


"Car builder" is not a name

D. Scott Chatfield
 


Bruce Smith wrote:

>While many have called the 3 panel door on the X29 a “CRECo” door, in reality it is not a product of the Chicago Railway Equipment Co and is more correctly called a "car builder's door" ......

STOP!

There is no such thing as a "car builder's door" or "car builder's end" or whatever.  It is not a proper name, but a placeholder.  When you see "car builder" on a general arrangement diagram or other paperwork it means the railroad (buyer) let the carbuilder decide who to buy that part from rather than specifying the source itself.

Period.  End of rant.


Scott Chatfield


Re: Gondola Load aka WP car aka WP 20551-series aka WP painting standards....

Fred Jansz
 

Garth & Ed and others interested in WP,

Unfortunately I have never found painting & stencilling guides for the 3 series of 1937, 1945 & 1947 built WP 20001-20800 box cars.

However, I posess WP stencil-guides dated 1936 of the WP 14001, 16001 and 19001 cars that mention: black roof & ends. Also have a picture of a new 18417 re-painted that way with a SAC 1-37 date (BLT 6-17). So one could say at least in 1936-1937 WP followed the black ends & roofs fashion.

Which implies that if you have one of the Speedwitch K114 kits of the 1937-built 9'6" box cars, it would need black ends & roof as built.
In fact, this is what I've always thought, looking at the builders photo of WP 20200 that's included in the Speedwitch instructions. Ends painted shiny black! (not car cement).

With the next repaint (if any) these cars would be WP-red all over out of cost-reduction, except trucks & underbody still in black.
But in my scale world one car could easily still have black roof & ends in my modeling year 1950!

It is my opinion the WP 20551-20800 series of 1947 MtVernon-built cars was delivered in WP red all over, except trucks. At least I have never seen a picture of such a car with dark ends or roof.
But yes, the 1951 PS-1 series was delivered with black car cement roofs & ends.

BTW: yes, 1949 was the date 'silver' stencilling was introduced.
However; the 1936 instructions mention 'aluminum' lettering. This I understand is white paint mixed with aluminum particles, so it reflects light. In our 1:87 world this would mean plain white I guess.

best regards, Fred Jansz


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Dave Lawler
 

Thank you Ben. That would certainly make an interesting modeling feature.
Dave Lawler


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Benjamin Hom
 

Dave Lawler asked:
"What was the purpose for the stake pockets(?) on the outside of the side boards?"

To hold stakes for loads taller than the sides of the gon.  These are a common feature of period wood and composite gons.  Here's a builder's photo of a PRR Class GRA with stake pockets:

Some later steel gons had collapsible stake pockets on the inside of the sides.  The Proto 2000 52 ft 6 in gon is an example.


Ben Hom 



Re: Pennsylvania X29 Box Cars 503920 and 504222

Lester Breuer
 

Bruce Thank You for the correction on the “car builder’s door”.
Lester Breuer


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Dave Lawler
 

What was the purpose for the stake pockets(?) on the outside of the side boards?
 
Best regards,
Dave Lawler


Re: Photo Study: Lackawanna Gondola 67198

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hello Bob,

    I've never been a particular fan of the Lackawanna, being more Erie oriented, but cannot thank you enough for providing the photos of
Lackawanna gondola #67198 that you posted seven photos of from the Steamtown collection. This car is so neat it just begs to be modeled.
The fact that 16 of the class were still around in April 1950, as Schuyler has noted, is just the frosting on the cake! Wood sides and a wood
floor and look at the way the side planks are butted together at their ends with the shorter one that is 2nd from the bottom and extending inward
from the end of the car having one bolt at its top into the flange on one side of the rib and the next plank having one bolt through the bottom
into the flange on the other side of the rib to maintain the same pattern where there was no butt joint at the rib and each plank had two bolts.
And look at the Bettendorf T-section trucks that were so popular for many years and the K brake system with the rod from the brake ratchet at
the end of the car being suspended by brackets to reach the brake valve. The mounting of the ratchet gear itself, to clear the drop ends, is quite 
interesting. The deep well underframe is noted and the brake kine coming to the outside of the car would seem proof that there were also drop
doors. And stake pockets on the car sides as well!  Again, what a super interesting car and if the subject car were not enough look at the 
surroundings! How about the Mo. Pac.50 ft. auto car which we have discussed modifying the Roundhouse/Athearn single sheathed Western
Pacific car without the end door, but of similar design, to produce. Its "B" end shows in the 4th photo and the "A" end in the 7th even if little 
else can be seen. Better yet, look at the Grand Trunk early double sheathed end door auto a part of which shows in the 2nd photo and a bit
more in the 3rd. What a shame this car was not documented as well as the subject. Were the Lackawanna gon and other cars not enough 
look at the entire 7th photos! How about that Mack Bull Dog truck that looks to still  have solid tires, not less! And how about that neat, early 
style overhead crane and the boiler it is unloading from the flat car beyond the Lackawanna gon! 

    I can't thank you enough, Bob, for giving us such a great photo presentation. It is easily the best I've seen on the STMFC.

Cordially, Don Valentine

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