Date   

Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Tim O'Connor
 


I'm taking it all in stride... nature seems to select for mediocrity. In the end, Walthers shall prevail. :-D

It's like politics. Try to tune it out. You'll have more peace of mind. 8-)

Tim O'


On 4/30/2019 8:43 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Bruce Smith wrote:
"The new Walthers flyer includes four new steam era freight cars:

40' steel USRA rebuilt wood boxcar
https://www.walthers.com/40-steel-rebuilt-usra-wood-boxcar-ready-to-run-undecorated 

FAIL.  This model has 5/5/5 Murphy ends and XLA roof, indicating an early rebuild reusing these components that did not increase the dimensions of the original car.  Unfortunately, none of these rebuilds (ACL/C&WC, SL-SF) had 10-panel sides, but exhibited 8-panel sides.  Also, the model lacks an inset side sill and brackets that are a spotting feature of almost all rebuilt boxcars.  This, along with the Atlas "Rebuilt USRA boxcar" model, is an overpriced representation of nothing.


Ben Hom


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Pennsylvania X26c Box car

Paul Doggett
 

Lester 

That’s a fine looking build.

Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 1 May 2019, at 18:14, Lester Breuer <rforailroad@...> wrote:

10:09am   

I have finished a Funero & Camerlengo one piece body resin kit of rebuilt USRA Pennsylvania X26c Box Car with Youngstown steel door.  I scratch-built the ladders and special  bracket grab irons.  If you are interested in viewing, photos and writeup of build and finishing PRR X26c are now on my blog of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.  If you would like to take a look,  please do at the following link:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer


Attachments:


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Bruce Smith
 

Mark,
I agree that the plastic grab irons are too fragile for general use, which is why I am now replacing them with wire. I have an Intermountain USRA composite gondola on the bench that got wire grab irons on the second side last night and once painted, will get decaled for the AB&C.

Regards
Bruce


On May 1, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Rossiter, Mark W <Mark.Rossiter@...> wrote:

Ray, I agree with much of what you stated.  Most of the old P2K line can be picked up for a song.  In my opinion, they are no more difficult to assemble than the Gould/Tichy, Red Caboose or Intermountain kits.  One of the reasons for the fire sale pricing on P2K kits may be that they flooded the market with them.  One of the few remaining LHS in our area still has shelves full of P2K six-packs. 

The problem with any of the plastic kits with fine details (RTR or otherwise) is that they do not stand up well to handling.  Many modelers who regularly run their cars seem to gravitate towards the molded on details sooner or later.  I'd love to see highly detailed freight cars on our club layout, but we have too many ham-fisted members who think it's OK to pick up three and four cars at a time.  

Mark Rossiter   


Pennsylvania X26c Box car

Lester Breuer
 

10:09am   

I have finished a Funero & Camerlengo one piece body resin kit of rebuilt USRA Pennsylvania X26c Box Car with Youngstown steel door.  I scratch-built the ladders and special  bracket grab irons.  If you are interested in viewing, photos and writeup of build and finishing PRR X26c are now on my blog of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.  If you would like to take a look,  please do at the following link:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer



Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 08:59 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:
Since the kits didn't sell, Walthers probably decided that the models would never sell in any manner, so shelved the tooling.
 
I have a simpler suggestion. It should be obvious to anyone here that WKW rates roadnames as to saleability, which explains why some roads for a given prototype are never offered, while other roads that are only close 'stand-ins' are. In the case of the Mather cars, all were leased, typically to roads that are negative numbers on the 'saleability index', so marketing is going to say, "Why bother?" and they don't.

Dennis Storzek
 


WP ribside car

Clark Propst
 

Thanks to those who replied to my query for a friend he was able to do a 'creditable' model of one of the Milwaukee ribside cars sold to the WP. Attached
CW Propst


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Rossiter, Mark W <Mark.Rossiter@...>
 

Ray, I agree with much of what you stated.  Most of the old P2K line can be picked up for a song.  In my opinion, they are no more difficult to assemble than the Gould/Tichy, Red Caboose or Intermountain kits.  One of the reasons for the fire sale pricing on P2K kits may be that they flooded the market with them.  One of the few remaining LHS in our area still has shelves full of P2K six-packs. 

The problem with any of the plastic kits with fine details (RTR or otherwise) is that they do not stand up well to handling.  Many modelers who regularly run their cars seem to gravitate towards the molded on details sooner or later.  I'd love to see highly detailed freight cars on our club layout, but we have too many ham-fisted members who think it's OK to pick up three and four cars at a time.  

Mark Rossiter   


Re: this nice shot of the GM&O freight house

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi Jeff,
 
Thanks for those images. In the aerial photo, one can make out what appears to be a few trucks loading on the side of the building that cannot be seen in the photo.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] this nice shot of the GM&O freight house

Attached is a map and an aerial photo.  The aerial photo shows the sheer density of steam-era freight cars in this part of Kansas City.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 4:34 PM
To: STMFC <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] this nice shot of the GM&O freight house

 

Hi List Members,

 

Consider for a moment this nice shot of the GM&O freight house surrounded by steam era freight cars...

 

 

I have a question about how this all works regarding delivery of goods to the customer. Freight cars get parked here, they are unloaded into the freight house by fork lift or hand truck or elbow grease, right? Then what? How does the customer get their goods? Presumably they show up wuth their comapny truck (or in earlier days, with their horse-drawn cart). But I don't see any good street access to the building. Is it on the side of the building we cannot see? I'm thinking maybe not, since there are probably tracks there.

 

This is not the first time I've seen freight houses with what appears to be inadequate or non-existant street access. How was this handled? Presumably every inbound carload of items that goes INTO the freight house has to leave as well, and it's not leaving in a freight car, right?

 

Thoughts?

 

Overall, if you omit the large yard in the background, and included only the three tracks in the foreground with the building, a scene like this is very model-genic, and could serve as the focal point of a very nice switching layout or a fun area of activity within a larger layout.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Ray Breyer
 

>>>Vince Altiere asked:
>>>"Since Walthers purchased the Proto lne, as far as I know, they have never made a new run of the Mather BOXCARS. 
>>>Is this right? Does anyone know why?"

>>>Too busy putting out garbage like those "USRA" house cars.
>>>Ben Hom


Sadly, the real answer is simpler: the "great unwashed masses" were afraid of the kits, and didn't buy them. Even Life Like had a hard time selling the kits: the RTR models sold well enough, but soon after the kits were released they could be found at deep discounts because retailers couldn't give them away. Most of the P2K Mather cars I have I bought for $5 new, even the "timesaver" kits with grabs pre-installed.

Since the kits didn't sell, Walthers probably decided that the models would never sell in any manner, so shelved the tooling.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
_._,_._,_


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

vincent altiere
 

Ben- Thanks for the quick reply, I suppose we can always hope for a rerun of those cars.

Vince Altiere


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, May 1, 2019 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Vince Altiere asked:
"Since Walthers purchased the Proto lne, as far as I know, they have never made a new run of the Mather BOXCARS. Is this right? Does anyone know why?"

Too busy putting out garbage like those "USRA" house cars.


Ben Hom


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Benjamin Hom
 

Vince Altiere asked:
"Since Walthers purchased the Proto lne, as far as I know, they have never made a new run of the Mather BOXCARS. Is this right? Does anyone know why?"

Too busy putting out garbage like those "USRA" house cars.


Ben Hom


Re: Manufacturers Railway Mather box

vincent altiere
 

Eric and all- Since Walthers purchased the Proto lne, as far as I know, they have never made a new un of the Mather BOXCARS. Is this right? Does anyone know why ? 

Vince Altiere
East Hanover,New Jersey


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2019 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box

Here’s a link to the August 2003 Railmodel Journal. Richard Hendrickson’s Mather boxcar article starts on page 45. He features prototype photos of the cars produced by Proto2000.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steven D Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 6:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box
 
Clarification – The TC prototypes were 8’ 6” IH, taller than the what the P2K cars represent, which are 7’8” IH cars, if I recall correctly.
 
Steve Johnson
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven D Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:56 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box
 
Proto 2000 produced the Mather boxcar decorated for Tennessee Central, but the TC prototypes were the taller version.  Sunshine produced the taller and correct TC model. 
 
I seem to recall hearing that the P2K Mather boxcars were based off their Mather stock car, thus the boxcar models were of the lower height version.
 
Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 11:37 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box
 
Big surprise here, folks: proto2000 only made one height of Mather car. 
Tony Thompson 

On Apr 30, 2019, at 6:19 AM, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
Mather produced boxcars with a few different interior heights. There were also some 36-foot Mather boxcars rolling around before 1930. Just because it is labeled as a Mather boxcar, stock car, or reefer does not mean they are all the same. They came from the same builder. IIRC, at one point the AC&Y had two series of Mather boxcars with different interior heights.
 
I suspect the Proto2000 models produced by Life-Like followed prototypes for certain time frames. Mather leased these cars and they were reused after leases expired. The cars returned to the Mather shops for repaint and reletter for the new lessee. You will need to consult the ORER for your modeling period to determine where the Mather cars were used.
 
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 8:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Manufacturers Railway Mather box
 
I can see an issue on the height, because from looking at the pictures of car bodies from the Proto kits on eBay, they all look the same even though there were some that were quite a bit taller.  I found another good source in an ad for RY models in O scale, and there the cars are separated by height.  The one I'm thinking of is 7'-8" IH, which seemed to be a common height, but others were as high inside as 10'-3" and the model photos of Proto cars seem to show that they're not.

I found the Hendrickson article from August 2003 and unfortunately there is no table attached, but there the photos also seem to show height differences.

But I thought those were channels (C-sections) on the diagonals, not Z-sections like a "normal" single-sheathed box had.

Ron Merrick

Ron Merrick


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Benjamin Hom
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:
"...sorry Ben, the Atlas rebuild is a gem compared with these things(!)* At least it has a somewhat legit looking side sill."

I'd take the Atlas rebuild over these as it's not too hard to turn the 8-panel side model with 5/5/5 Murphy ends into a legit model of the ACL/C&WC or SL-SF cars.  Larry Kline corrected the side sill on the Atlas O version, and it looked good.


"All that said, I'm actually not surprised at Walthers choice of prototypes, considering the "late steam" era seems to be experiencing a renaissance of late. But knowing full well who has the helm at Walthers product development, I'd be shocked if the decision to make these cars wasn't the result of some sort of customer survey - and I'm not shocked at all the execution of same."

Can these people be the same ones also run the Walthers Proto line? 


Ben Hom 


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine wrote:
"I'm sure some will disagree vehemently but I will take the Ertl cars over this junk any day of the week. Hopefully what Walthers is depicting are only pre-production samples. If not, as stated, the Ertl cars are quite satisfactory and can be improved with little effort."

There's a nice USRA DS boxcar model hiding in that Ertl box.  The major faults (which can be easily fixed) are as follows:
- Most of the paint and lettering schemes are bogus or poorly executed, the result of following a fantasy Mainline Modeler lettering summary.
- The weathering is overstated and too consistent from model to model.
- The model comes with cast steel trucks and should be replaced with Andrews trucks.
- The models come without additional weight to allow the addition of loads that were marketed separately.
- The styrene grabs are a bit heavy, but are easily replaced with wire grabs.

These are still fairly common on the secondary market.  The original MSRP was ridiculously high, but many freight car models were sold at very reasonable prices as Ertl departed the HO market.  I picked up a bunch when The Great Train Store chain went out of business.

Ertl did not make a USRA SS boxcar or rebuilt boxcar.


Ben Hom


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Eric Hansmann
 

Tony,

 

While the single-sheathed car is not labeled as a USRA car, the web address for the model insinuates it’s a USRA car.

https://www.walthers.com/40-usra-composite-boxcar-ready-to-run-undecorated

 

 

And this is in the product description.

 

Based on later rebuilds and upgrades of standard 40' boxcars designed by the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) introduced during WWI, these cars would remain in general freight service into the 1960s, with many rebuilt for work train service lasting into the 1980s.

 

Which is the same wording used in the product description for the rebuilt USRA car models.

 

Based on later rebuilds and upgrades of standard 40' boxcars designed by the United States Railroad Administration (USRA) introduced during WWI, these cars would remain in general freight service into the 1960s, with many rebuilt for work train service lasting into the 1980s. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 8:58 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Walthers USRA based cars

 

     I note that they don't actually call their single-sheathed car a USRA, which is good because of course it isn't, much more like the ARA design, though pretty poorly rendered. In looking at these, and thinking how far we have (mostly) come in model freight cars, I'm just glad Richard Hendrickson isn't here to see these Walthers things.

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Donald B. Valentine
 

I'm sure some will disagree vehemently but I will take the Ertl cars over this junk any day of the week. Hopefully what Walthers is depicting are only pre-production samples. If not, as stated, the Ertl cars are quite satisfactory and can be improved with little effort. They can often be found on eBay at very attractive prices if one is patient. I particularly like the very tin but operable door
on then which also allows one to paper the door like the prototypes were often found to keep specific cargoes clean.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Benjamin Hom
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
"40' Early Wood Reefer
This looks like a USRA reefer."

Disappoinment grows...this looks more a generic 40 ft reefer than any representation of a USRA-design reefer.  Quick summary of these cars at the Westerfield website:

This could have been a winner...even though the USRA-design cars were exclusively Santa Fe, that fact would guarantee sales.


Ben Hom 





Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Tony Thompson
 

     I note that they don't actually call their single-sheathed car a USRA, which is good because of course it isn't, much more like the ARA design, though pretty poorly rendered. In looking at these, and thinking how far we have (mostly) come in model freight cars, I'm just glad Richard Hendrickson isn't here to see these Walthers things.

Tony Thompson




Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Marty McGuirk
 

Before I looked at the photos my immediate thought was the TMI tooling had come back somehow. Then I looked at the pictures. Ugh. 


In addition to the other comments I swear that it looks like the boards on the DS cars are too wide - or am I seeing things? And sorry Ben, the Atlas rebuild is a gem compared with these things(!)* At least it has a somewhat legit looking side sill. 


All that said, I'm actually not surprised at Walthers choice of prototypes, considering the "late steam" era seems to be experiencing a renaissance of late. But knowing full well who has the helm at Walthers product development, I'd be shocked if the decision to make these cars wasn't the result of some sort of customer survey - and I'm not shocked at all the execution of same. 


Hard pass. 



Marty McGuirk


*For the record I did own one Atlas rebuilt box .... for a while. 


 


On May 1, 2019 at 9:12 AM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Al Westerfield wrote:
"All of the DS cars shown had K rather than AB brakes.  The TH&B car had an Ajax brake wheel.  Although it’s not really clear, it appears that the brace on the door isn’t centered.  And UP never had the cars.  With dozens of roadmanes and lettering styles, why choose that?"

The disappointment grows the more you look at these models...

Other issues with the DS boxcar:
- There is no inset at the sidesill.
- The sheathing retaining strap along the sidesill is missing.
- The lower door track represents some roads' cars later in life; however, as built, the cars had six distinct rollers along the side sill.
- The door stops are missing.
- That hand brake is a throwback to the Train-Miniature "TV antennas".  It's more S scale than HO.

Vote with your wallets...don't reserve these models, don't by them, and support manufacturers that do better.


Ben Hom   


 


 


 


Re: New Walthers USRA based cars

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 05:24 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:

- dang, look at those boards! SMH

I'll say... on the double sheathed cars, too!

https://www.walthers.com/40-usra-wood-boxcar-ready-to-run-undecorated

https://www.walthers.com/40-early-wood-reefer-ready-to-run-undecorated


They've made the same mistake that Train Miniature made fifty or so years ago, they read the call out on the drawing that the sheathing is "5-1/4" D&M" and didn't realize that the 5-1/4" siding has a center groove, meaning that the grooves should be spaced 2-5/8" apart. In actuality, it looks like the design and engineering  for these new cars was limited to measuring some old Train Miniature bodies.

Dennis Storzek