Date   
Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

Donald B. Valentine
 

     Well Dave, let's look at the bigger picture. The B&M may have had only 25 USRA double sheathed cars by
1950 but that is because the numbers came down rapidly shortly before that. In July 1946, for example, they
still had 476 of them out of the 500 total. Unfortunately you have not given us the month in 1950 that you refer
to that might also tell us something more. But by April 1947 the number had dropped to 447 indicating the loss
of 29 cars in just nine months.

     An even more important point is the Ertl car. Why set it aside??? As has already been noted, it comes with
an AB brake system and also has a roof that is easily removable as well as individually applied grab irons. This
is more than an Accurail car provides (sorry Dennis) and doe not require the assembly time of a Westerfield car,
two of which I have assembled that don't impress be too much (sorry Andrew as well). The other thing the Ertl
USRA boxcar offers that is too often overlooked is a WORKING DOOR!  No, I'm not suggesting at all that we
return to the day of the clunky Athearn cars with the "claws" at the bottom of their doors but to me an HO scale
boxcar that does not have doors that open is hardly worthy of purchasing. And the Ertl car easily has the most
prototypically thin scale door yet seen on an HO boxcar with the possible exception of Tichy cars. If those
manufacturering such models can't get their act together and give us operating boxcar doors they can at least
mold the damn things separately so they can be attached in an open position or even changed for a different
style. To me a door that is molded onto a boxcar is as big a pain in the ads as one with "claws". There is no
need of what we are being offered being without working doors in this day and age. The Ertl car is easily the
best HO Scale double sheathed car we have ever been offered. It is a shame that it is no longer being offered
but one can pick up all they want on eBay and elsewhere without paying more than $20 each and often lower.
While I have known and appreciated Bill Schneider's efforts very much over the years the lack of operating, or
separate, doors on the Rapido Northern Pacific boxcar left me cold on an otherwise really nice model and it
appears the Rapido USRA car will follow suit.  But with a few over thirty of the Ertl cars I'm not going to shed
tear over it knowing that I can have a better model with a little effort put into the Ertl cars. If Rapido decides to
offer separate underframes that have better detailing and a choice of K or AB brake styles those I might be
interested in but count me out for the cars themselves as I have already told Bill.

Just my two bits worth, Don Valentine

Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

David
 

Andrews trucks with CB&Q cast in the side frames
I would think these cannot be trucks from USRA cars, as the builders wouldn't have gone to the trouble of figuring out who was getting which groups of cars, then ordering sideframes with the proper initials on them. The AC&F photo of a USRA ds truck casting shows several numbers and a date, but no railroad initials.

David Thompson

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

William Hirt
 

Dennis,

These were the only CB&Q boxcars with Andrews trucks when purchased new. They did buy Andrews trucks new for their composite gondolas and used them to replace trucks on other equipment as necessary. One prominent example was the USRA style gondolas which the Q did like and built a lot of them in their own shops (over 6,000) for especially coal service. 2400 Class GS-5 cars were built in 1925 by CB&Q Galesburg shops. 400 would equipped with Archbar trucks and the remaining 2000 with Andrews trucks. They continued building similar cars at Galesburg in 1929-30 (750 cars - Class GS-7 - an improved Andrews plank truck), and from 1935-1938 with additional 2800 Class GS-8 cars built (mainly with Barber double truss plank trucks, but they did have 50 equipped with National Type B trucks, and 50 with Barber stabilized plank trucks built in 1935).

The gondolas were resheathed a number of times and then rebuilt. As January 1960, there were still almost 2700 of the GS-7 and GS-8 cars still in revenue service.

The Q did not buy any two bay steel hoppers until a 500 car buy from AC&F in 1926 that had Dalman trucks (Class HT-1). Then they started buying steel two bay steel hoppers regularly for the next 20 years or so. The biggest being the HT-5 class which had 3200 cars.

Here is a photo of one the gondolas with the Andrews trucks in 1948 in a work train at Louisiana MO:

<http://transport.castlegraphics.com/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=-96&pid=4049#top_display_media>

Bill Hirt

On 6/5/2019 1:17 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 06:44 AM, William Hirt wrote:
According the Burlington Route Historical Society Freight Car Data Sheet on USRA Double Sheathed Boxcars, the USRA Double Sheathed Boxcars (series 120500-120999) built in December 1918 by AC&F were the last double sheathed boxcars the CB&Q purchased (Class XM-24). They were the only CB&Q boxcars built new with Andrews cast steel trucks. Other than resheathing in the 1930s and having a grab added to the left hand side of the car, not much in the way of visible changes were made to these cars (unlike other Q double sheathed boxcars). They kept their KC brakes until retired. They were all gone by the early 1950s.
That's interesting. The Soo Line "sawtooth" boxcars built in 1913,14, and 15 were all built with Bettendorf T section trucks, but the five or six cars that remain in preservation all ride on Andrews trucks with CB&Q cast in the side frames. Obviously a bulk purchase of used trucks to replace the troublesome T section trucks, but I always wondered when it was done. A search of the preserved Soo AFE files failed to reveal any large purchases of used trucks, but it may have just been described with the generic term as car material or some such. If these were the only CB&Q cars equipped with Andrews trucks, then any large reduction in their numbers would be a good indication as to when the trucks would have been available. Anyone have a retirement timeline for the Q USRA cars?

Dennis Storzek

B&O C-16 Express Boxcar Question

Nelson Moyer
 

I have a Sunshine C-16 express boxcar ready to paint, and the car color was described to me as coach green. That’s kind of like saying a freight car is boxcar red, so what paint colors in the Floquil, Poly Scale, Scalecoat, and/or Tru Color paint lines approximate B&O coach green? I understand that it’s lighter than Pullman green, but that too has many variations.

 

Thanks,

 

Nelson Moyer

 

Re: B&O C-16 Express Boxcar Question

Edward
 

Nelson,.
Please check my response to this in the Passenger Car group.
It has a color photo taken in the mid-1960's showing the difference between a fresh coat of B&O Coach Olive and one that is over 5 years old.

Ed Bommer

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 06:35 PM, William Hirt wrote:
These were the only CB&Q boxcars with Andrews trucks when purchased new. They did buy Andrews trucks new for their composite gondolas and used them to replace trucks on other equipment as necessary. One prominent example was the USRA style gondolas which the Q did like and built a lot of them in their own shops (over 6,000) for especially coal service.

Thanks. David Thompson's comment that the trucks on the USRA cars would not be marked CB&Q is a point well taken, so the second hand side frames must have come from one of these groups of gons. There is a picture with a legible weight date from the mid thirties of one of the Soo Line boxcars still with its original Bettendorf trucks, and interestingly, one truck has has a forged repair strap applied, which shows that reports that these side frames were prone to crack are true. The rest of the photos I've found are either builders photos or were taken post war, and by then they had Andrews trucks. I was hoping for an easy way to determine when the trucks were changed. There were still over 1500 of these cars listed in the January 1953 ORER, a number that drops to 109 by October of 1954. The later groups of "sawtooth cars" soldiered on for another ten years.

I believe the Soo society now has the freightcar card file in their archives; maybe after I retire I'll spend some time going through it one card at a time and find the real answer.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

Tim O'Connor
 


I think the USRA car shares its underframe with the NP box car. This may have had something
to do with Rapido's decision - a small investment with a rapid payback.

Tim O'


On 6/5/2019 9:01 PM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
     Well Dave, let's look at the bigger picture. The B&M may have had only 25 USRA double sheathed cars by
1950 but that is because the numbers came down rapidly shortly before that. In July 1946, for example, they
still had 476 of them out of the 500 total. Unfortunately you have not given us the month in 1950 that you refer
to that might also tell us something more. But by April 1947 the number had dropped to 447 indicating the loss
of 29 cars in just nine months.

     An even more important point is the Ertl car. Why set it aside??? As has already been noted, it comes with
an AB brake system and also has a roof that is easily removable as well as individually applied grab irons. This
is more than an Accurail car provides (sorry Dennis) and doe not require the assembly time of a Westerfield car,
two of which I have assembled that don't impress be too much (sorry Andrew as well). The other thing the Ertl
USRA boxcar offers that is too often overlooked is a WORKING DOOR!  No, I'm not suggesting at all that we
return to the day of the clunky Athearn cars with the "claws" at the bottom of their doors but to me an HO scale
boxcar that does not have doors that open is hardly worthy of purchasing. And the Ertl car easily has the most
prototypically thin scale door yet seen on an HO boxcar with the possible exception of Tichy cars. If those
manufacturering such models can't get their act together and give us operating boxcar doors they can at least
mold the damn things separately so they can be attached in an open position or even changed for a different
style. To me a door that is molded onto a boxcar is as big a pain in the ads as one with "claws". There is no
need of what we are being offered being without working doors in this day and age. The Ertl car is easily the
best HO Scale double sheathed car we have ever been offered. It is a shame that it is no longer being offered
but one can pick up all they want on eBay and elsewhere without paying more than $20 each and often lower.
While I have known and appreciated Bill Schneider's efforts very much over the years the lack of operating, or
separate, doors on the Rapido Northern Pacific boxcar left me cold on an otherwise really nice model and it
appears the Rapido USRA car will follow suit.  But with a few over thirty of the Ertl cars I'm not going to shed
tear over it knowing that I can have a better model with a little effort put into the Ertl cars. If Rapido decides to
offer separate underframes that have better detailing and a choice of K or AB brake styles those I might be
interested in but count me out for the cars themselves as I have already told Bill.

Just my two bits worth, Don Valentine


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

Charlie Vlk
 

Some may have gotten the impression from this discussion that the USRA DS box cars were the primary origin of Andrews trucks on the CB&Q.

This is not correct.   Here are the classes that had some if not all of the cars with Andrews trucks per a 1930 CB&Q Truck Diagram Book:

Truck No. 39       100M Car Cast Steel Freight Truck    GA-7   GA-9   TM-4   GA-8   GA-9   GA-11   GE-2

Truck No. 46       100M Car Cast Steel Freight Truck    GA-15

Truck No. 47       100M Car Cast Steel Freight Truck    XM-24

Truck No. 48       100M Car Cast Steel Freight Truck    GS-2   HT-2   HT-3   HT-4

Truck No. 48A     100M Car Cast Steel Freight Truck    GS-6   GS-7   FM-11A   

 (replacement for Truck No. 31 using parts except sideframes and new bolsters only on FM-11 A)         

 Truck No. 113     140M USRA Tender Truck   F-1   G-5   M-3   O-4

My library is currently inaccessible as I am finishing new bookcases so I cannot extract more modern information on truck usage.   I do know, however, that the SM-16 and other classes of Stock Cars did receive Andrews trucks.   Except for the tender trucks that came with the USRA steam locomotives it is probable that most if not all Andrews trucks were sideframe replacements for various archbar trucks although in the 1930 CB&Q Truck Diagram Book only the 48A is specifically called out as such.

It would be interesting to learn if the Soo Line actually had purchased the trucks from the CB&Q or if they were simply railroad museum retrofits.

Charlie Vlk

 

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

Dennis Storzek
 

No Charlie, not done at the museums. Three of the four trucks (the fourth is AAR cast sideframes) on the two cars at IRM are so marked and I've been a member as long as the cars have been there... the same trucks and markings on the car at the Colfax Railway Museum in Wisconsin and one other car, the location of which escapes me at the moment.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Rapido USRA 40-ton Boxcar

np328
 

         Among the numerous drawings I supplied to get the car green lighted by Rapido before they ever approached our NP modeling committee, I had searched at the MNHS for a matter of months every Tuesday evenings and Saturday days, in addition to other times as my job and the MNHS library hours would allow, in order to find the drawing of the underframe. 
         In the evolution of getting things rolling, there was a question if - whomever did the original modeled car - had indeed done the underframe correctly. No name because I still respect all they did to move this hobby forward. It, the drawing of the underframe, had been somehow misfiled at the MNHS and I began to wonder if the drawing even existed. 

     I just looked at the scan I did of the drawing and found on the bottom left corner.  It has P.S.C. Co Dwg 52240-E  lettered in. The number it was filed under by the NP Mechanical Dept. on the lower right is quite different. Now some of the other drawings I found, like the Ideal Safety Hand brake, have notations on the drawing that they are covered by applicable patents of the W H Miner brake Co. The underframe drawing does not. 

      I cannot say then if the underframe on the NP car is or is not unique to the NP.  If you have further information on the underframes origin, I would be happy to hear of it. 

   If it turns out there is some commonality to the underframe, or this was an "off the shelf" design, well I am happy Rapido noted this. The original rendition on the Rapido NP models I have are lovingly reproduced when compared to the original blueprints.                                                   Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 

"Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Bill Welch
 

Among the clinics I attended at the recent the NERPM, the most expensive was the one presented by Ryan Mendell, "Machinist Tools For Modellng, Part 1 - Hand Tools." In just two days I have spent about $200 for five new tools and I have not purchased a Digital Caliper yet. Ryan runs the Machine Shops at the University of Toronto and is a Mechanical Engineer who started hanging around a machine shop at age 14. He also was selling a neat little Finger Sander he calls the "tight Spot Sander." Here is a link to the Demo video: https://nationalscalecar.com/product/tight-spot-sanders/

Regarding his presentation, it can be found here, but be careful with your credit card or PayPal account: http://grandtrunkrailway.blogspot.com/

Bill Welch

Photo: PRR Gondola

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Gondola

The car end is stenciled PL 751691 CT:

https://buickman2.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_7283-1.jpg

The date is 10/15/20. This was taken at the Buick factory that was under construction in Flint, MI.

Caption: "This is the rail loading dock for factory #40 when the covered dock is just being constructed. It was located towards the north-east wall adjacent to the Pere Marquette main line."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Bill Welch
 

Apologies for the misspellings, should read: 
  "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic at recent NERPMBill Welch
Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Todd Horton
 

I’ve owned several sets of digital and dial calipers over the years.   Mitutoyo seems to be my favorite but Swiss made Brown & Shape dial calipers are good also. The digital advantage is the ability to switch between metric and standard.  Sadly my American made Starrett calipers are very troublesome and sensitive to metal chips.       Todd Horton 


On Jun 6, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Among the clinics I attended at the recent the NERPM, the most expensive was the one presented by Ryan Mendell, "Machinist Tools For Modellng, Part 1 - Hand Tools." In just two days I have spent about $200 for five new tools and I have not purchased a Digital Caliper yet. Ryan runs the Machine Shops at the University of Toronto and is a Mechanical Engineer who started hanging around a machine shop at age 14. He also was selling a neat little Finger Sander he calls the "tight Spot Sander." Here is a link to the Demo video: https://nationalscalecar.com/product/tight-spot-sanders/

Regarding his presentation, it can be found here, but be careful with your credit card or PayPal account: http://grandtrunkrailway.blogspot.com/

Bill Welch
<DSC_2404.JPG>

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Dennis Storzek
 

Another vote for Mitutoyo, which seem to be the standard of industry these days. The batteries last for years even if you forget to turn them off. A word of caution; a couple years ago there was a spate of counterfeit Mitutoyo calipers being sold on ebay. If the price seems to good to be true, it likely is.

Dennis Storzek

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Ralph W. Brown
 

Bill, et al.,
 
This was one of the most enlightening clinics I attended at the NERPM, and “enlightening” is definitely a multiple meaning word, particularly with regard to the impact on one’s wallet.  My favorite of his tools is probably Ryan called a “sensitive drill attachment.”  McMaster-Carr calls it a “Straight-Shank Drill Chuck Arbor with Drill-Feed Attachment” or “sensitive drill chick arbor” (https://www.mcmaster.com/sensitive-drill-chuck-arbors), and it is slick.  Of course, one will also need a No. 0 Jacobs chuck to go with it (https://www.mcmaster.com/jacobs-taper-chucks or https://www.kbctools.com/itemdetail/?itemCode=1-508-6200).  The arbor runs $86.56 from McMaster-Carr and the Jacobs chuck another $90.00 to $105.00 depending on the source.  Still is, as I said, a really slick arrangement and has been added to my planned acquisition list.
 
The clinic provided a wealth of other great tool ideas and techniques as well.  Ryan’s planning to do Part 2 on machine tools next year and I’m planning to be there.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 5:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM
 
Among the clinics I attended at the recent the NERPM, the most expensive was the one presented by Ryan Mendell, "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." In just two days I have spent about $200 for five new tools and I have not purchased a Digital Caliper yet. Ryan runs the Machine Shops at the University of Toronto and is a Mechanical Engineer who started hanging around a machine shop at age 14. He also was selling a neat little Finger Sander he calls the "tight Spot Sander." Here is a link to the Demo video: https://nationalscalecar.com/product/tight-spot-sanders/
 
Regarding his presentation, it can be found here, but be careful with your credit card or PayPal account: http://grandtrunkrailway.blogspot.com/

Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

James SANDIFER
 

I have Mitutoya dial cals in the garage and Harbor Freight digitals in the house. I prefer the HF ones, and dirt cheap, often on sale for $10.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Todd Horton via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 6:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

 

I’ve owned several sets of digital and dial calipers over the years.   Mitutoyo seems to be my favorite but Swiss made Brown & Shape dial calipers are good also. The digital advantage is the ability to switch between metric and standard.  Sadly my American made Starrett calipers are very troublesome and sensitive to metal chips.       Todd Horton 


On Jun 6, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Among the clinics I attended at the recent the NERPM, the most expensive was the one presented by Ryan Mendell, "Machinist Tools For Modellng, Part 1 - Hand Tools." In just two days I have spent about $200 for five new tools and I have not purchased a Digital Caliper yet. Ryan runs the Machine Shops at the University of Toronto and is a Mechanical Engineer who started hanging around a machine shop at age 14. He also was selling a neat little Finger Sander he calls the "tight Spot Sander." Here is a link to the Demo video: https://nationalscalecar.com/product/tight-spot-sanders/

Regarding his presentation, it can be found here, but be careful with your credit card or PayPal account: http://grandtrunkrailway.blogspot.com/

Bill Welch

<DSC_2404.JPG>

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Bill Welch
 

I am considering buying a Mitutoyo from Amazon. One can tell from some of the questions there for the product that there has been problems w/counterfeits but it is easy to return things with Amazon and they do stand behind things. Probably more than I need but like the idea of being able to switch between metric and inches. I have a dial caliper that works well as a gage but I often have difficulty accurately reading the increments on the dial. I am beginning a new freight car kit pattern project and want to do any measuring quickly. This also involves collaborating with someone else and given I am vey much a Rube Goldberg type engineer, I want to minimize any mistakes i may accidentally transmit to my partner on the project

Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

I have a Mitutoyo 4” long caliper too after asking Dennis for a recommendation. I love it and, as Dennis mentions, you can leave it on for a long time and the battery is still fine. I still have my analog Craftsman calipers from many decades ago and I still use when measuring something over 4” long. I had two cheap Harbor Freight calipers…one would not turn off and the other ate batteries. You get what you pay for….

 

Jack Burgess

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

 

Another vote for Mitutoyo, which seem to be the standard of industry these days. The batteries last for years even if you forget to turn them off. A word of caution; a couple years ago there was a spate of counterfeit Mitutoyo calipers being sold on ebay. If the price seems to good to be true, it likely is.

Dennis Storzek

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

I should have mentioned that Mitutoyo calipers measure to four decimal places…

 

Jack Burgess