Date   
Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling . . .

Tony Thompson
 

I have to agree with Jack Burgess and Denny Anspach. Every time I have yielded to the impulse to save a little money and buy a cheaper tool, I have regretted it. I now try very hard to resist such impulses . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Photo: Unloading DeSotos

Bob Chaparro
 

Small photo from the Wisconsin History website:

https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM12630

Caption: "Four men posing with the first shipment of new 1946 DeSoto automobiles as they come off a train onto a loading dock for Stadium Garage, 1501 Monroe Street, Plymouth and DeSoto Sales and Service."

Taken in 1946.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Charles Peck
 

Absolutely with you, Denny.  When I was working for the US Navy as a machinist, we were not allowed
to have digital calipers in our tool boxes.  Every measuring tool we used had to be traceable back to the
Bureau of Standards.  Our calibration people had no way to connect software to any official standard.
Vernier calipers were OK.  Mechanical dial calipers were allowed to check the size of a drill bit, not a 
finished piece.  Nothing digital at all.
That said, now I'm retired, I have a pair of digitals for such things as checking rail size or styrene strip.
Chuck Peck

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 1:01 PM Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...> wrote:
Jack Burgess hit it on the head when he points out that you get what you pay for:  the Harbor Freight and similar are commodity grade or less calipers and if one is into disposable instruments, these can certainly  be useful.

I have six calipers, Mititoyo, Helios (German), Brown & …..? (Swiss), none of them new, all extremely accurate, and none…none at all depending on batteries. I use dial calipers routinely, but use only vernier calipers to check on  critical measurements.  I learned my lesson on the latter some years ago when I found to my chagrin that I could find no one, nada, zip, that would even consider, much less touch a repair on any of the digital calipers (“throw them out”).  I also learned that to a man, the fine instrument repair shops use only vernier calipers to check accuracy in their work.

My core instruments are almost all the very best I can find, and in that regard, they have paid, and continue to pay for themselves in accuracy, wear, longevity, and usefulness over the years-  the ultimate economy.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA




Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Denny Anspach
 

Jack Burgess hit it on the head when he points out that you get what you pay for: the Harbor Freight and similar are commodity grade or less calipers and if one is into disposable instruments, these can certainly be useful.

I have six calipers, Mititoyo, Helios (German), Brown & …..? (Swiss), none of them new, all extremely accurate, and none…none at all depending on batteries. I use dial calipers routinely, but use only vernier calipers to check on critical measurements. I learned my lesson on the latter some years ago when I found to my chagrin that I could find no one, nada, zip, that would even consider, much less touch a repair on any of the digital calipers (“throw them out”). I also learned that to a man, the fine instrument repair shops use only vernier calipers to check accuracy in their work.

My core instruments are almost all the very best I can find, and in that regard, they have paid, and continue to pay for themselves in accuracy, wear, longevity, and usefulness over the years- the ultimate economy.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

For our use, these drills require a speed controller…

 

Jack Burgess

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2019 8:47 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

 

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 10:57 AM, Jack Burgess wrote:

Cameron Micro Drill drill press

$900 on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cameron-Precision-Drill-Press-Watchmaker/283500490685?hash=item4201f22fbd:g:nPkAAOSwywtc7uGb

There is also a used Dayton on eBay

Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Jun 7, 2019, at 07:36, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

[…]

Precise power tools for this kind of work are available, but not in hobby shops or home-centers, and they are EXPENSIVE.
This thread reminds me of a construction series I read in Model Engineer several decades ago by Edgar Westbury on his home-machinists’ version of a sensitive press. Construction of such an accessory by a home machinist is an achievable goal, as several best mates have demonstrated to me.

^<@<.@*
}"_# |
-@$&/_%
!( @|=>
;`+$?^?
,#"~|)^G

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Bill Welch
 

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 10:57 AM, Jack Burgess wrote:
Cameron Micro Drill drill press
$900 on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cameron-Precision-Drill-Press-Watchmaker/283500490685?hash=item4201f22fbd:g:nPkAAOSwywtc7uGb

There is also a used Dayton on eBay

Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

I bought my Cameron Micro Drill drill press fifty years ago and use it with #85 drills. It was about $175 when I purchased it and about $1200 now. You might find one on eBay. Made in the USA…still.

 

Jack Burgess

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Friday, June 7, 2019 7:36 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

 

Excellent advice. Any drill-bit can’t operate with spindle “runout” (wobble) more than a few percent of it’s diameter. Thus a cheap drill-press with, say, 0.010” runout will work just fine with a 1/4” drill, but be totally unacceptable with a #50 or smaller drill.

 

Really small drills like a #75 (0.021”) require a spindle runout of less than a couple thousandths of an inch. Cheap power tools can’t meet this requirement. Precise power tools for this kind of work are available, but not in hobby shops or home-centers, and they are EXPENSIVE.

 

“Little Machine Shop”, "Micro-Mark", and a couple other suppliers offer better-grade small machines suitable for almost all hobby work. There are still better ones, but then you’re talking real money ($20K for a Levin 4” lathe)… investigate Horological, Instrument, and Jeweler’s machines if interested.

 

Oddly, such small drills can be used, with care and practice, by hand in pin-vise or such. If not used “ham-handed” one can feel any misalignment and correct while drilling. The little drills are somewhat flexible, but can’t accept sustained flexure from a misaligned spindle.

 

In addition to spindle “runout” (lack of concentricity) there’s also the issue of the entire spindle assembly (usually called a “quill”) wiggling around loosly in its housing. Instead of a wobble, this produces a sustained side-thrust on the tiny drill that may also cause problems. All these factors lead to drill breakage, misplaced holes, out-of-round holes, and oversized holes.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

 



On Jun 6, 2019, at 11:36 PM, John <jbopp007@...> wrote:

 

A good source for many of the tools mentioned in this clinic is Little Machine Shop.  I’ve used their sensitive drill feed for many years.  It’s well made and I’m quite pleased with it.  The keyless chuck is convenient, too.

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3790&category=

A word of caution, though.  A sensitive drill feed like this has to be used in a machine with a smooth, true running spindle.  Runout (wobble) of just a few thousands may not seem like much with, say, a quarter inch drill bit, but with a #80 it can be serious, leading to oversized holes and/or broken drills.

John Bopp

Farmington Hills, MI

 

 

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Excellent advice. Any drill-bit can’t operate with spindle “runout” (wobble) more than a few percent of it’s diameter. Thus a cheap drill-press with, say, 0.010” runout will work just fine with a 1/4” drill, but be totally unacceptable with a #50 or smaller drill.

Really small drills like a #75 (0.021”) require a spindle runout of less than a couple thousandths of an inch. Cheap power tools can’t meet this requirement. Precise power tools for this kind of work are available, but not in hobby shops or home-centers, and they are EXPENSIVE.

“Little Machine Shop”, "Micro-Mark", and a couple other suppliers offer better-grade small machines suitable for almost all hobby work. There are still better ones, but then you’re talking real money ($20K for a Levin 4” lathe)… investigate Horological, Instrument, and Jeweler’s machines if interested.

Oddly, such small drills can be used, with care and practice, by hand in pin-vise or such. If not used “ham-handed” one can feel any misalignment and correct while drilling. The little drills are somewhat flexible, but can’t accept sustained flexure from a misaligned spindle.

In addition to spindle “runout” (lack of concentricity) there’s also the issue of the entire spindle assembly (usually called a “quill”) wiggling around loosly in its housing. Instead of a wobble, this produces a sustained side-thrust on the tiny drill that may also cause problems. All these factors lead to drill breakage, misplaced holes, out-of-round holes, and oversized holes.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Jun 6, 2019, at 11:36 PM, John <jbopp007@...> wrote:

A good source for many of the tools mentioned in this clinic is Little Machine Shop.  I’ve used their sensitive drill feed for many years.  It’s well made and I’m quite pleased with it.  The keyless chuck is convenient, too.

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3790&category=

A word of caution, though.  A sensitive drill feed like this has to be used in a machine with a smooth, true running spindle.  Runout (wobble) of just a few thousands may not seem like much with, say, a quarter inch drill bit, but with a #80 it can be serious, leading to oversized holes and/or broken drills.

John Bopp

Farmington Hills, MI

 

Re: Photo: PRR Gondola

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for sharing that nice photo, Bob!

 

That’s a USRA 70-ton mill gondola, Pennsy G25 class. Interesting to see the C.T. marks still on the car after USRA control ended in March 1920. In 1924, the Pennsylvania Lines would be folded into the Pennsylvania with a corporate restructuring. In many cases, ‘Lines’ would be painted out as a lettering upgrade with reporting marks on the end changed to PRR.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 4:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Gondola

 

Photo: PRR Gondola

The car end is stenciled PL 751691 CT:

https://buickman2.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_7283-1.jpg

The date is 10/15/20. This was taken at the Buick factory that was under construction in Flint, MI.

Caption: "This is the rail loading dock for factory #40 when the covered dock is just being constructed. It was located towards the north-east wall adjacent to the Pere Marquette main line."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Gondola

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bob;

That is a fabulous find!

This is a Pennsylvania Lines G25 751691 (USRA-type) 46' IL with original pivoting handbrake assembly and dimpled end. The interior folding stake pockets are visible, since the photographer is atop a loading dock.

I have 2 Westy models of this car, one built with brake upright, the other pivoted. Great models!

Great find, Bob, and thanks for sharing!

Elden "kind of a gon guy" Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 5:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: PRR Gondola

Photo: PRR Gondola

The car end is stenciled PL 751691 CT:

Blockedhttps://buickman2.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_7283-1.jpg <Blockedhttps://buickman2.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_7283-1.jpg>

The date is 10/15/20. This was taken at the Buick factory that was under construction in Flint, MI.

Caption: "This is the rail loading dock for factory #40 when the covered dock is just being constructed. It was located towards the north-east wall adjacent to the Pere Marquette main line."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Dennis Storzek
 

Four decimal places in the inch setting... and IIRC that was the tip-off to the counterfeits, they only display three places.

Dennis Storzek

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools." clinic at recent NERPM

John
 

A good source for many of the tools mentioned in this clinic is Little Machine Shop.  I’ve used their sensitive drill feed for many years.  It’s well made and I’m quite pleased with it.  The keyless chuck is convenient, too.

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3790&category=

A word of caution, though.  A sensitive drill feed like this has to be used in a machine with a smooth, true running spindle.  Runout (wobble) of just a few thousands may not seem like much with, say, a quarter inch drill bit, but with a #80 it can be serious, leading to oversized holes and/or broken drills.

John Bopp

Farmington Hills, MI

 

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

steve_wintner
 

One use for calipers that may not have been mentioned is sneaking up on a fit - e.g. when sanding or filing.  The precision measurement allows you to easily figure out if you are removing material evenly, or have gotten a bit crooked. And, since the jaws stay parallel, it quickly finds the high spots, for example on a resin floor, making it easier to figure out just why it doesn't want to fit between the sides of this kit....

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Scott
 

I have been slumming it with Harbor Freight calipers and somewhat unbelievable is they have worked fine for years.  It does go through a lot of batteries.  

Scott McDonald

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Paul Woods
 

Well, I dunno about the rest of you but I don't manage to work to better than two D.P.!

Regards
Paul

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

I should have mentioned that Mitutoyo calipers measure to four decimal places…

 

Jack Burgess

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Jack Burgess
 

I have a Mitutoyo 4” long caliper too after asking Dennis for a recommendation. I love it and, as Dennis mentions, you can leave it on for a long time and the battery is still fine. I still have my analog Craftsman calipers from many decades ago and I still use when measuring something over 4” long. I had two cheap Harbor Freight calipers…one would not turn off and the other ate batteries. You get what you pay for….

 

Jack Burgess

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 4:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

 

Another vote for Mitutoyo, which seem to be the standard of industry these days. The batteries last for years even if you forget to turn them off. A word of caution; a couple years ago there was a spate of counterfeit Mitutoyo calipers being sold on ebay. If the price seems to good to be true, it likely is.

Dennis Storzek

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

Bill Welch
 

I am considering buying a Mitutoyo from Amazon. One can tell from some of the questions there for the product that there has been problems w/counterfeits but it is easy to return things with Amazon and they do stand behind things. Probably more than I need but like the idea of being able to switch between metric and inches. I have a dial caliper that works well as a gage but I often have difficulty accurately reading the increments on the dial. I am beginning a new freight car kit pattern project and want to do any measuring quickly. This also involves collaborating with someone else and given I am vey much a Rube Goldberg type engineer, I want to minimize any mistakes i may accidentally transmit to my partner on the project

Bill Welch

Re: "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

James SANDIFER
 

I have Mitutoya dial cals in the garage and Harbor Freight digitals in the house. I prefer the HF ones, and dirt cheap, often on sale for $10.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Todd Horton via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 6:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] "Machinist Tools For Modeling, Part 1 - Hand Tools" Clinic ar rent NERPM

 

I’ve owned several sets of digital and dial calipers over the years.   Mitutoyo seems to be my favorite but Swiss made Brown & Shape dial calipers are good also. The digital advantage is the ability to switch between metric and standard.  Sadly my American made Starrett calipers are very troublesome and sensitive to metal chips.       Todd Horton 


On Jun 6, 2019, at 5:48 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Among the clinics I attended at the recent the NERPM, the most expensive was the one presented by Ryan Mendell, "Machinist Tools For Modellng, Part 1 - Hand Tools." In just two days I have spent about $200 for five new tools and I have not purchased a Digital Caliper yet. Ryan runs the Machine Shops at the University of Toronto and is a Mechanical Engineer who started hanging around a machine shop at age 14. He also was selling a neat little Finger Sander he calls the "tight Spot Sander." Here is a link to the Demo video: https://nationalscalecar.com/product/tight-spot-sanders/

Regarding his presentation, it can be found here, but be careful with your credit card or PayPal account: http://grandtrunkrailway.blogspot.com/

Bill Welch

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