Date   

Re: Occuremce of D&RGW boxes

Mark Hemphill
 
Edited

D&RGW origin traffic wasn't favorable to its boxcars traveling broadly:

  • Very little manufacturing in its territory, and practically no manufactured goods that were suitable for boxcars. Its major manufacturers were CF&I, which was mostly a rail and wire mill, and USS Geneva, which was a hot-rolled coil, slab, welded pipe, and structural shape mill. CF&I couldn't compete effectively east of the Rocky Mountain rate territory because it was pushing into the market basins of midwestern mills, so its product was almost entirely consumed in the Rocky Mountain states. Other manufacturing largely consisted of canned goods -- also mostly consumed locally, and mining machinery, also mostly consumed locally. CF&I produced nails (which would have shipped in boxcars), fence post, and barbed wire (which could have shipped in boxcars). But not in huge carload quantities.
  • Relatively small lumber originations, compared to railroads serving the west coast. Colorado and Utah are too high, too cold, and too dry for there to have been large commercial timber stands on the scale of California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana. 
  • Wool was a commodity favorable for boxcars. Also gilsonite. But not huge volumes. 
  • Mineral concentrates and ores. These commonly shipped in boxcars until the 1960s. Most of the smelters and refineries receiving these ores were in Oklahoma, Illinois, and Texas.
  • Coal was VERY commonly shipped in boxcars from D&RGW mines until the 1960s. It's unusual to see a photograph of a coal mine with only open-top cars present. Typically the high-value lump grades for domestic heating were shipped in boxcars, and the slack and mine-run grades consumed as locomotive fuel, for coking, or for industrial fuel shipped in open-top cars. But again, the domestic heating market was regional. D&RGW coal competed effectively about as far east as Salina, Kansas, then started pushing into the market basin of the mines in southeastern Kansas and eastern Oklahoma. Similarly, about as far east as Grand Island, Nebraska, then pushing into the market basin of Iowa and Missouri mines. New Mexico markets were served by Raton Field mines, Wyoming by Hanna and Rock Springs field mines, and so forth.
I've put a lot of effort into trying to reverse-engineer train lists on D&RGW trains in the 1950s and 1960s (actual train lists are almost non-existent) and there aren't even very many home-road boxcars in their own trains outside of MofW service. Not until the early to mid-1960s, when D&RGW could start earning money from car-hire on RBLs and XMLs in assigned services, was there incentive to start purchasing boxcars. And most of those cars didn't see home rails very often.

Mark Hemphill


Re: Occuremce of D&RGW boxes

Tim O'Connor
 


In 1950 D&RGW rostered 4,399 box cars, and the NP rostered 15,259 box cars.
Nationally in 1950 there were over 718,000 box cars. So the D&RGW represented
6 tenths of 1 percent of the total fleet - about one car in 163.

Assuming truly 'random' distribution, the probably of zero D&RGW box cars in a
train of 100 box cars is .54 or 54%. The same probability calculation for NP box cars
yields .116 or just under 12%. Or looked at another way, 7 out of 8 of the 100 car
trains would have at least 1 NP box car, while less than half of such trains would
have even a single D&RGW box car.

Tim O'Connor



On 6/10/2019 6:26 AM, Garth Groff wrote:
Dave,

Let's look at how many boxcars the D&RGW owned (excluding narrow gauge). My 1958 ORER says they owned 3,047 XM boxcars (the majority being 40', 10' 4" IH steel cars with 12-panel sides), 29 XML loader-equipped boxcars; 28 XAR and XMR automobile cars, 8 XAP auto parts boxcars, and finally 29 XMI insulated boxcars (the famous "Cookie Box" boxcars in assigned service between Salt Lake City and Denver). Excluding the Cookie Boxes, that's only 3,112 interchange boxcars, not a huge number but likely adequate for their traffic.

The line's most common loadings were coal, and some other mineral traffic, much of which was to other on-line destinations (and coal in small lots was known to have been sometimes shipped in D&RGW boxcars), so the bulk of their fleet was GS gondolas. Their two largest outbound customers were CF&I and USS Geneva which are unlikely to have shipped much in boxcars. Also consider that the line functioned as a bridge line between the WP and the CB&Q, and D&RGW boxcars would more commonly be seen on those two friendly roads than most others in the U.S.

It is no surprise to me that D&RGW boxcars are be fairly uncommon in photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 6/9/19 7:59 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
This follows on from the discussion of sill steps being bent inwards.

I couldn’t help noticing the D&RGW box.  By rights it should have been a common occurrence, but it wasn’t.  You just don't see them that often in these old photos.  Compare to Northern Pacific, which, as so many have noted, are seen in nearly every SteamEra train.  My own guess, without looking at the fleet numbers: NP boxes went everywhere because they delivered northwest lumber to a growing nation.  D&RGW originating traffic was much more limited.

I’d love to hear more.



David Soderblom

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Brake Housings

Tim O'Connor
 


I know exactly what Pierre is asking about. I think one of them most closely resembles
a Klasing, and another a Universal brake housing. The squarish-rectangular housing may
be an attempt at an Equipco housing. They are all highly detailed - superior tooling when
compared to the Moloco housings. The DA/GL sets have not been equalled - I wish I'd
bought a few hundred of them!

Tim O'Connor




On 6/9/2019 7:43 PM, Dan Smith wrote:
Hello Nelson,

The Grandt Line tool for making this part wore out a long time ago.

Both Grandt line and DA sets show up at swap meets regularly, I always snap up what I can.

Dan Smith


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Occuremce of D&RGW boxes

pennsylvania1954
 

Dave--Compared to 3100+ XM's owned by D&RGW in 1958, NP had 19,671 in 1955. More or less a 6 to 1 ratio.

Missing from this thread is mention of the doctrine I have read on this list for many years: unless in assigned service, i.e., Cookie Boxes, all railroad boxcars should be treated as a national fleet. Any railroad's boxcar can be routed from anywhere to anywhere then reloaded again without any requirement to back haul to the home road.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: Occuremce of D&RGW boxes

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Dave,

Let's look at how many boxcars the D&RGW owned (excluding narrow gauge). My 1958 ORER says they owned 3,047 XM boxcars (the majority being 40', 10' 4" IH steel cars with 12-panel sides), 29 XML loader-equipped boxcars; 28 XAR and XMR automobile cars, 8 XAP auto parts boxcars, and finally 29 XMI insulated boxcars (the famous "Cookie Box" boxcars in assigned service between Salt Lake City and Denver). Excluding the Cookie Boxes, that's only 3,112 interchange boxcars, not a huge number but likely adequate for their traffic.

The line's most common loadings were coal, and some other mineral traffic, much of which was to other on-line destinations (and coal in small lots was known to have been sometimes shipped in D&RGW boxcars), so the bulk of their fleet was GS gondolas. Their two largest outbound customers were CF&I and USS Geneva which are unlikely to have shipped much in boxcars. Also consider that the line functioned as a bridge line between the WP and the CB&Q, and D&RGW boxcars would more commonly be seen on those two friendly roads than most others in the U.S.

It is no surprise to me that D&RGW boxcars are be fairly uncommon in photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 6/9/19 7:59 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
This follows on from the discussion of sill steps being bent inwards.

I couldn’t help noticing the D&RGW box.  By rights it should have been a common occurrence, but it wasn’t.  You just don't see them that often in these old photos.  Compare to Northern Pacific, which, as so many have noted, are seen in nearly every SteamEra train.  My own guess, without looking at the fleet numbers: NP boxes went everywhere because they delivered northwest lumber to a growing nation.  D&RGW originating traffic was much more limited.

I’d love to hear more.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA
drs@...










Decaling. A happy accident

Brian Carlson
 

While decaling new reweigh dates and some chalk mark on a CB&Q XM-30 I had what Bob Ross would have called a happy accident.

Normally I use paper towels to blot decals, but I forgot to grab one. Being lazy, I grabbed a clean unused pan pastel sofft applicator, square end version. It worked great to blot the decal and press it down to snuggle into the side, and with more uniform pressure than my finger and a paper towel.

Just wanted to throw out this alternative use of pan pastel Sofft art sponges.

Brian J. Carlson


Tank Car ladders

David W Beidle
 

I would like to upgrade the ladders on many of my tank cars. I would prefer to use brass ones, but a less "clunky" plastic ladder would suffice. I am referring to the ones on the side of the 6,000 - 10,000 gallon cars. Anybody know a source?

Dave Beidle
St Louis


Re: Standard Steel Freight Cars - Experiment (corrected)

Jeff Eggert
 

Thanks for sharing this.  A possible solution for those with trouble with XLSX files is to look into LibreOffice. https://www.libreoffice.org/  This programs opens seemingly everything, even some old Microsoft files the current Office suite won't open.  Its free and my go to program when Excel doesn't like the file.  Besides some features a data file like this will never use, the XLSX file version is usually about 1/3 the size as an XLS file.  Makes a big difference for larger files.

The following may get a bit detailed for this list, but I think the larger audience may find interest.

In some discussions with the BRHS, and while going though our photo spreadsheet at the CNWHS Archives, I ran into similar standardization concerns.  While we had a standardized set of fields, the data within those fields was clearly entered by many individuals over the years.  Exactly how you described ATSF variants, I saw everything from town and name spellings for common places which didn't even match.  Someday a mass sorting will need to fix and align all these similar to what you may be thinking.

Reporting marks with non-letter characters have always caused problems in the digital world.  Maybe not when we use our eyes to look at a digitized photo from 100 years ago, but the computer doesn't "gloss over" that & or a period when entered as data.  As Dan suggested the & has purpose certainly for the era.  From a pure sortation standpoint, any non-letter character or space will cause things to sort how people entered them (and why I try to ban them from my personal files as data).  You could create a validated table similar to what is done on RailCarPhotos for their various search functions.  https://www.railcarphotos.com/CountReportingMarks.php  Things get fun when trying to decide on a sterilized list of builders since some changed their name over the years.

Lastly circling back to the photo spreadsheet - instead of manually renaming 25,000 photo filenames to let them sort in a researcher friendly fashion, I let the computer rename them using the spreadsheet data.  During that process I found all sorts of unacceptable characters entered in odd places such as the & which don't play nice in filenames.  The lesson to me was that the data cleanliness really shows up when you go to use it.

Jeff Eggert


Re: Great Freight Car Combinations

Steve Wolcott
 

The sill step on the Rio Grande boxcar is also bent in.
Steve Wolcott


Re: Brake Housings

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks for the clarification and the tutorial from Gene.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dan Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2019 6:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Brake Housings

 

Hello Pierre, Nelson,

The parts Nelson cites are separate wheel housing sets done by DA. The Equipco is a 3750 gear, the Miner is a D3290 gear and the Ureco is a fantasy gear.

The Grandt Line ? DA set contains 4 gears, this set was done for a project that never fully materialized.

Gene Green went over these some time back so I will copy his post:

 


Looking for some C of G assistance here.

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hi folks,

     I'm trying to finish the brake system on a C of G ventilated boxcar from the C of G His. group and have
run into a problem. No brake diagram is included in the kit, only a photo of what is stated to be an assembled
pilot model upside down. That's all ell and good except for the fact that the mounting lugs on the floor casting
for mine are in the reverse position from those on the pilot model. It is also stated that there are some differences
between some of the castings in a 1st and 2nd run of these resin models, which ay have something to do with
the problem. Can anyone provide a diagram of the actual brake system for these "vents'? One showing the
train line pipe as well would help since there does not appear to be one on the pilot model. Other than this brake
issue the ony thing I'll change will be to build up a wood running board and ditch the one from the kit. These
issues should not discourage anyone from building one of these cars as the kit does yield a nice model once
completed.

Thanks for any assistance offered, Don Valentine


Re: Great Freight Car Combinations

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

   I stumbled onto that that full Erie car photo too, Schuyler, while looking over that beautiful C of G steam power and agree
that all three of the stirrup steps seen are angled inward.

   The heater is of the Elesco family and is usually refered to as a "coil" instead of the more familiar "bundle" as the tubular
design is called. If you ever saw all of the Steamtwn ex-CPR G-5 class 4-6-2's you may have photographed #1293 with the
same style of "coil" unit thought they came with slightly different shapes as well rather than only different sizes like the "coil"
units.

God to meet you at the NEPRO meet, Don Valentine


Re: Great Freight Car Combinations

gary laakso
 

A wonderful picture, thank you for sharing and it features chalk marks at the end of the flat car.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Madden via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2019 4:21 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Great Freight Car Combinations

 

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 04:07 PM, Jack Mullen wrote:

On Sat, Jun 8, 2019 at 08:00 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

It’s pretty clear that the steps ARE bent inwards from the usual plane of the car side.

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1944-Columbus-Georgia/i-xxqfnfK/A

Indeed, and if you look around in the photo Schuyler linked, you'll see steps on the Rio Grande and WLE boxcars are also bent inward. Must be operating on a club layout. ("Huh, THAT isn't very sturdy! I build MY cars to OPERATE.")

Seriously, once to start looking, you'll see these a lot. The bend is by design, not damage (though that happens too). It's a consequence of the inward taper of the clearance envelope below the level of the side sill.  When the inside width of house cars expanded to 9'2", width over the side sills became about 9'10".  But the bottom of the step is at a height of 2' or a couple inches less ATR , where the max width has reduced to about 9'8".  

Attached is a photo showing two views of an undamaged sill step on D&RGW Pressed Steel boxcar 69332 showing the designed-in bend. It's the step on the right. Pierre offers this step, Yarmouth part #YMW-216.

Tom Madden


Occuremce of D&RGW boxes

David Soderblom
 

This follows on from the discussion of sill steps being bent inwards.

I couldn’t help noticing the D&RGW box. By rights it should have been a common occurrence, but it wasn’t. You just don't see them that often in these old photos. Compare to Northern Pacific, which, as so many have noted, are seen in nearly every SteamEra train. My own guess, without looking at the fleet numbers: NP boxes went everywhere because they delivered northwest lumber to a growing nation. D&RGW originating traffic was much more limited.

I’d love to hear more.



David Soderblom
Baltimore MD USA
drs@stsci.edu


Re: Brake Housings

 

Hello Nelson,

The Grandt Line tool for making this part wore out a long time ago.

Both Grandt line and DA sets show up at swap meets regularly, I always snap up what I can.

Dan Smith


Re: Brake Housings

 

Hello Pierre, Nelson,

The parts Nelson cites are separate wheel housing sets done by DA. The Equipco is a 3750 gear, the Miner is a D3290 gear and the Ureco is a fantasy gear.

The Grandt Line ? DA set contains 4 gears, this set was done for a project that never fully materialized.

Gene Green went over these some time back so I will copy his post:

Gene Green
08/29/16  

My information differs somewhat from that which was copied from their website.
Since all hand brake installations on new cars are grandfathered, any given hand brake can continue in use long after actual production has stopped.
 
Ajax 5 is actually model no. 14665 with short release lever introduced Nov 1953.
Ajax 5-1 is actually model no. 14665-1 with long release lever introduced abut 1970.
Ajax 5 is also model no. 14665-B with no release lever introduced Aug 1961.
Ajax 7 & 7-1, models 15018 & 15018-1 respectively, short & long release levers respectively were introduced in 1974.  These are intermediate power hand brakes and, in their applied position would have a loop of chain dangling from left of center as well as the chain to the vertical hand brake rod.
Save for the presence & type or absence of release lever the 5 hand brakes above had very, very similar housings.
 
The Champion/Champion Orme/Champion Peacock 1148 was introduced in 1937 and production stopped in 1953.
 
I have no information indicating there was ever an Equipco hand brake model 2550.
 
Equipco 3750/3750-A/3750-B/3750-C/3750-D were introduced in Oct 50, Dec 50, Oct 51, Apr 54 and May 57, each predecessor being obsolete and no longer produced upon the introduction of its successor.  This hand brake had no release lever and was in a malleable (cast) housing.  There was a model 3750-E which may have existed on paper only.  In 1974 Equipco 3750-F was introduced with a forged (stamped) housing virtually identical to the Equipco 4000.  Equipco 3750-F lasted to 1999.  Equipco 3750-FS was sold only to the N&W and L&N and, for our purposes, was identical to 3750-F and all 4000 models.
 
Ellcon-National model 1148-J was essentially the Champion mechanism in a forged E-N housing and did not resemble the Champion 1148 at all.  It looked like the Peacock 1600, AAR 1966, body.
 
The Klasing 1150 was introduced in Aug 1961 and last sold in 1977, exactly the information on the website to which reference was made.
 
Klasing 1450, 1500, 1500-1, 1700 & 1700-1 was a family of hand brakes in similar housings.  The 1450 was never sold but a model 1450 (A) was on the market from 1972 to 1993.  It had no release lever.  Models 1500 & 1500-1 were introduced in 1969 and went through a number of internal changes indicated only by suffix letters, something with which we need not be concerned.  The "-1" indicates a long release lever.  The others had a short release lever.  The 1500 was still available in 1999, the 1500-1 to 1993.  Models 1700 & 1700-1 were introduced in 1993 and lasted until Klasing was sold to New York Air Brake in this century.
 
The Miner D-3290, D-3290-X & D-3290-XL  were introduced in 1937, May 43 & 1951.  Miner model 18486-B1, which had essentially the same appearance as its predecessors, was introduced in 1970.  Each model was obsolete when its successor was introduced and the 18486-B1 was obsolete in 1979.
 
Miner models 6600 & 6600-L were introduced in 1967 and obsolete in 1981.  Guess which one had the long release lever.  The other one had a short release lever.
 
Universal 2250 from 1957 to 1962.
Universal 7400 (short release lever) and 7400-3 (long) were introduced in 1963 & 1967 respectively.  They apparently lasted in production into this century.
 
Gene Green

Hope this helps,
Dan Smith


Re: Brake Housings

Nelson Moyer
 

Did DA or GL offer the four housing sprue separately, are they still available, and what housings are on the sprue? I use mostly Kadee housings and wheels for the ones they make, but they don’t do URECO or Klasing, and I’m always looking for alternative sources. I  bought the RCW Klasing set, but I haven’t found another source for URECO besides DA.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Pierre Oliver
Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2019 5:50 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Brake Housings

 

It's the same AB sprue that was in the GS gon kits

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 6/09/19 6:48 p.m., Nelson Moyer wrote:

Pierre, I don’t think DA makes a sprue with four brake housings on a single sprue. Maybe the sprue you have is Moloco? I attached a picture of the Moloco brake housings.

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: Great Freight Car Combinations

Tom Madden
 

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 04:07 PM, Jack Mullen wrote:
On Sat, Jun 8, 2019 at 08:00 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

It’s pretty clear that the steps ARE bent inwards from the usual plane of the car side.

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1944-Columbus-Georgia/i-xxqfnfK/A

Indeed, and if you look around in the photo Schuyler linked, you'll see steps on the Rio Grande and WLE boxcars are also bent inward. Must be operating on a club layout. ("Huh, THAT isn't very sturdy! I build MY cars to OPERATE.")

Seriously, once to start looking, you'll see these a lot. The bend is by design, not damage (though that happens too). It's a consequence of the inward taper of the clearance envelope below the level of the side sill.  When the inside width of house cars expanded to 9'2", width over the side sills became about 9'10".  But the bottom of the step is at a height of 2' or a couple inches less ATR , where the max width has reduced to about 9'8".  
Attached is a photo showing two views of an undamaged sill step on D&RGW Pressed Steel boxcar 69332 showing the designed-in bend. It's the step on the right. Pierre offers this step, Yarmouth part #YMW-216.

Tom Madden


Re: Best way to cut Plano metal roof walks

Chuck Cover
 

To the group, thanks for all the tips on how to cut the Plano metal roof walks. 

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: Brake Housings

Bill Welch
 

The AB brake set Pierre refers to was tooled by Grandt Line and packaged by both GL and DA.

Bill Welch

18641 - 18660 of 183407