Date   
Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Bob Webber
 

UTOPIA  was lot 2122 plan 1155a and negative is 3159.  We have floor plan, etc.

Sent from BlueMail

On Aug 14, 2019, at 9:18 AM, "Claus Schlund \(HGM\)" <claus@...> wrote:
Hi Don and List Members,
 
Yes, UTOPIA was a real Pullman car, and the builders photo does indeed show all those windows in the baggage door! The builders photo shows the inscription 3159 L 2122 which may possibly mean plan 3159 lot 2122
 
Claus Schlund
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Claus, your photo of "Utopia" prompts a question I just have to ask. Did anyone really ever create
a door for a baggage section with as much glass in it? It looks like a moving target! What is the
prototype for this car?

Thanks,  Don Valentine

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 07:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:
I know a "high and wide" guy that was tasked with making sure things fit back in the day, that told me some hair-raising stories. Shippers would get a car, then try to load it either at greatest convenience to themselves, or to as great a capacity (weight or cube) as they wished for.
And checking clearances was important. I had a great story told to me by a Soo Line engineer... 

The Soo had a secondary line to Manitowoc WI which was where they connected with the cross lake car ferries. This line also served Manitowoc Shipbuilding, which was also a maker of very large construction cranes. One day in the sixties their train had a huge slewing ring (the circular ring the crane rotates on) perched on a flatcar at the head end of the train. Nobody gave it much thought; big loads were normal out of Manitowoc. Ron says as they left the yard and started their run for the grade out of the Lake Michigan basin, as they passed under the C&NW bridge, there was a resounding DONG, and the crew turned to see the ring rolling along next to the train like a giant hula hoop. They watched as it rolled down the riverbank and flopped into the Manitowoc River. It didn't even derail the car it had been on.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Tichy tank car

Bruce Smith
 

WWII built USG-A cars built by AC&F were also similar, but as with the Canadian cars, which were built by CC&F, the under frame was different so the Tichy kit is not completely correct. Note that these cars were a "throw back" in that they were class II tank cars that were limited in the cargos that could be carried when compared to the standard class 3 (103) cars of the time.


Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of bn2204 via Groups.Io <doswift@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 8:07 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car
 
Scott

It's my understanding that the Tichy model represents a USRA design from WWI that was never built here in the US. However, this design was built in Canada during WWII and the Canadian cars survived into the early 1980's. If memory serves me well, the manway is 54" in dia., as where the initial Tichy model was offered with a 60" manway. (Tichy now offers the 54" manway.) The centersill and brake appliances are slightly different, and there's been discussion about using  the frame from an 8000 gal Intermountain to more accurately model the frame. But as is, the tank itself is correct. There were several Canadian owners, but CGTX and CN were the big owners of the cars. In fact, I need several of these cars myself.

http://www.nakina.net/pages/cgtx/cgtx001001.html
www.nakina.net
CGTX 1001 series: CGTX's 1000 series consisted of a mixture of 10,000 and 12,000 gallon tank cars, and were a mixture of new and used cars acquired from 1932 to 1952.



Darrall Swift - Lagrange, Ohio
Modeling the BN/MILW in North Central Montana,  Great Falls to Shelby,  Circa: August-September 1979

Heater Cars For Perishables

Bob Chaparro
 

 

Below is the text of an article from the November 1928 issue of the Frisco Employees Magazine. Did this system ever catch on with any railroad or rail car manufacturer?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

++++

Heater Cars

To properly protect perishables-such as fruits and vegetables in transit during

the winter, there must be provision made for the temporary conversion of refrigerator cars to heater cars, or other cars having permanent heater apparatus must be used. Much work is being done along the lines of development of heaters and various types using live steam or employing alcohol, kerosene, coal, or charcoal as fuel have been used; some heat storage systems have also been devised.

One system of heating used with some success derives its heat from steam supplied by the locomotive; a steam duct leading from the locomotive passes under each car to a connection with piping in the interior. A thermostat automatically shuts off the steam when the interior reaches a predetermined temperature, and prevents the car from becoming overheated. This system eliminates the fire risk and the damage to the lading often resulting from the gases produced by combustion in those types of heaters using fuels. In a test of this system, made when the outside temperature varied 48 deg. F. -from 28 deg. F. to minus 20 deg. F.-the temperature inside of the car varied only 8 deg. F.-from 52 deg. to 60 deg. F.

Another steam heating system takes advantage of the heat absorbing and retentive properties of porous terra cotta. This system makes use of the same style of train pipe, valves, traps and hose that are used on passenger train equipment. The train pipe is located below the car floor; its lowest point is at the center of the car where an automatic trap provides an outlet for the water of condensation. At each end of the car a branch pipe extends to one side and passes up through the floor to a heat storage tank or reservoir-an iron cylinder about 8 inches in diameter and about 5 feet long-located in the space below the ice bunker. This cylinder is placed at an angle so that the water in condensation flows to the lower end and passes out through the branch pipe; an automatic air valve on the upper end controls the admission of steam. The reservoir is filled with specially made porous terra cotta bricks which have corrugated surfaces, and facilitate the passage of live steam from the locomotive--or a stationary boiler-to all parts of the reservoir. This insures the absorption of heat by the bricks which enables them to radiate heat for many hours after the steam supply

has been cut off-in one instance, with the outside temperature minus 18 deg. F., a sidetracked car retained, for twenty-four hours, sufficient heat to prevent freezing. A thermometer placed in sight from the outside of the car permits an easy check on the temperature inside of the car. The action is such as to cause a mild circulation of air in the car; the cool air sinks to the floor and is drawn toward the heater, the warm air passes upward and is diffused throughout the car from above.

 

Re: Flat Car Load Placement

Charlie Vlk
 

All-
I can tell you from personal experience that flat cars need to be loaded in
a balanced manner....
....I have two 7 1/2" gauge flat cars equipped with pivoting boat seats for
riding cars. The first has a seat that has a more or less central column
pivot and is bolted to the center of the car. It tracks very well and does
not cause derailments.
The other has a seat that has the support column aligned at the seat back
but it is also bolted to the center of the car. This puts the weight
distribution more to one truck than the other and causes the car to derail
frequently to the point it is unusable in its purchased configuration and
has to go back into the shops for a new seat (repositioning it is not a
solution as the seat needs to be able to pivot for backup moves).
When you are the load in question the distribution of weight causing
derailments becomes a matter of great interest!!!
Charlie Vlk

PS- Yeah, I know, but even a heavy duty depressed center flat would have the
same issues for those thinking about a comment about excessive loading!!!

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Great story, Dennis!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Car Load Placement

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 07:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:


I know a "high and wide" guy that was tasked with making sure things fit back in the day, that told me some hair-raising stories. Shippers would get a car, then try to load it either at greatest convenience to themselves, or to as great a capacity (weight or cube) as they wished for.

And checking clearances was important. I had a great story told to me by a Soo Line engineer...

The Soo had a secondary line to Manitowoc WI which was where they connected with the cross lake car ferries. This line also served Manitowoc Shipbuilding, which was also a maker of very large construction cranes. One day in the sixties their train had a huge slewing ring (the circular ring the crane rotates on) perched on a flatcar at the head end of the train. Nobody gave it much thought; big loads were normal out of Manitowoc. Ron says as they left the yard and started their run for the grade out of the Lake Michigan basin, as they passed under the C&NW bridge, there was a resounding DONG, and the crew turned to see the ring rolling along next to the train like a giant hula hoop. They watched as it rolled down the riverbank and flopped into the Manitowoc River. It didn't even derail the car it had been on.

Dennis Storzek

Re: Tichy tank car

Kemal Mumcu
 

The Canadian cars indeed had a 54" dome, although I believe the Tichy offerings are either 52" or 60". The frames on the CGTX cars were longer than standard and purchasing an extra frame from Tichy and splicing 2 together could give you the longer frame. There are drawings of these cars available on the CP Tracks document library, available for those who sign up for a user name and password.

I haven't built any yet but I'd like to eventually.

Colin Meikle

Re: image of 50ft auto box SLSF 152805

Bill Welch
 

Than to owner Ron I used his Rocket Express' 3/3/3 Dreadnought end w/the MDC kit to model this car.

Bill Welch

Re: Tichy tank car

Aley, Jeff A
 

Hi Scott,

 

               I don’t think anybody has actually answered your question about the dimensions of the model tank.  What dimensions did you measure, and how did you convert that to gallonage?

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of D. Scott Chatfield
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:15 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car

 

I know much has been written about this so-called USRA tank car, but I have a question.  What was the gallonage of said USRA design?

 

The reason I ask is I am decaling said Tichy tank car to represent a Milwaukee Road water car, which apparently was built by ACF in 1923 (if I read the fuzzy scan right).  It is a 10,000 gallon ARA III with a barrel made from four longitudinal courses.  Which basically matches the Tichy car.  But when I started putting decals on it I noticed they don't quite fall where they should.  So yes, there are several variables here, but when I measured the actual model I found its body has a volume of about 9000 to 9200 gallons.  Can't say I've ever laid eyes on a tank car that size.

 

So is the Tichy tank about 10% undersized?  Or is it correct for the plans for the never-built USRA tank, which I always thought was a 10,000 gallon tank.

 

Oh, while said Milwaukee Road water car is a post-1960 paint job, it will occasionally be switched by an NW2....

 

Scott Chatfield

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Jake Schaible
 

I too have one of these N scale kits on my project list - with a promise to Mike Skibbe to photo journal a how to.  This same riddle - along with the recent purchase of a new paint booth waiting to be built and installed - has delayed my start.  But recently I've worked out that Fine-n-scale sells a brass etching MIGHT be a solution to the truss rods and turn buckles.  

The pre bent FNR-2014 rods seem to be about 0.75" between the queen posts, and 1.6" total to the points of attachment on the ends.  But the FGEX car has different geometry - smaller - just 0.575"  between the queen posts (outside to outside) and just 1.4" total between the cross member where the ends attach.  My plan is to TRY use such ... at least for the center turn buckle detail between the queen points and try to either re bend it to fit the FGEX geometry, or slice them.  
 
FNR-2014

40' TRUSS-ROD CHASSIS FOR MICRO-TRAINS ICE REEFER (2 PER PKG) 

https://www.finenscale.com/rollingstock.html 

 

Never tried the Grantline HOn3 turnbuckles, which are actually HO scale for narrow gauge.  Would be interested to know their dimensions.  

Re: 2018 Chicagoland MiniKit

Gary Roe
 

Thanks for the info Jake!

That may be a good solution.

I will pass along the dimensions of the Grandt turnbuckles if and when I can secure some.

gary roe
quincy, illinois



On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:38:30 PM CDT, Jake Schaible <jjschaible@...> wrote:


I too have one of these N scale kits on my project list - with a promise to Mike Skibbe to photo journal a how to.  This same riddle - along with the recent purchase of a new paint booth waiting to be built and installed - has delayed my start.  But recently I've worked out that Fine-n-scale sells a brass etching MIGHT be a solution to the truss rods and turn buckles.  

The pre bent FNR-2014 rods seem to be about 0.75" between the queen posts, and 1.6" total to the points of attachment on the ends.  But the FGEX car has different geometry - smaller - just 0.575"  between the queen posts (outside to outside) and just 1.4" total between the cross member where the ends attach.  My plan is to TRY use such ... at least for the center turn buckle detail between the queen points and try to either re bend it to fit the FGEX geometry, or slice them.  
 
FNR-2014

40' TRUSS-ROD CHASSIS FOR MICRO-TRAINS ICE REEFER (2 PER PKG) 

https://www.finenscale.com/rollingstock.html 

 

Never tried the Grantline HOn3 turnbuckles, which are actually HO scale for narrow gauge.  Would be interested to know their dimensions.  

Re: Tichy tank car

Edward
 

Jeff's question can be answered from knowing the inside dimensions of any tank - length and diameter in this case.
Those dimensions would be an few inches LESS than the outside measurements.
Calculate the cubic footage of the tank interior as a cylinder. Do not include dome capacity.

100 gallons occupies13.36 cubic feet, with a water weight of 213.76 lbs. 
(1 gallon is 1.336 cubic feet. A gallon of water has 16 pints weighing a pound each, if you are seeking weight).

Divide the total volume of the tank by 13.36 to get the gallonage in 100's.
Round this down to the nearest gross thousands to find a nominal gallon capacity.
These are often stated as 5,000, 6,000, 8,000,10,000 12,000 etc. but could vary by being slightly larger as well.

For water weight capacity in pounds of each nominal size tank, multiply by 16.
I think water weight for fluid loads was generally used in weight capacity calculations.
These determined journal / bearing  sizes for the trucks used under a tank car. 

Other fluids may vary by weight, being lighter or heavier from their chemical composition.
A gallon of gasoline weighs less than a gallon of water, for example.
A gallon of sulfuric acid is heavier.

Ed Bommer 

Re: Tichy tank car

D. Scott Chatfield
 

To measure the Tichy tank's volume I took this thingie called a "scale ruler" and measured the model.  Using the HO scale side, of course.  Since a tank car is not a simple cylinder, a little estimation is in order.  And since we need inside diameter, you have to subtract a bit from the measured outside diameter, but not much.

So I used an ID of 84" and a length of 32'6".  Thus the math is:
42 x 42 x 3.1415 x 32.5 x 12 = volume in cubic inches, divided by 231 to get volume in gallons.

Please note the volume of the dome in general service tanks was supposed to 2% of the tank's volume, and that volume was to be the part of the dome above top dead center of the tank barrel.  So the useable volume of the tank barrel (the volume stenciled on the tank end) should include that part of the dome below top dead center of the tank.  I didn't feel like doing that math.....


Scott Chatfield

Re: Tichy tank car

Richard Townsend
 

In Tony Thompson's blog he reported the Tichy tank car's volume to be 9840 gallons. http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2012/10/naperville-tank-car-handout-part-2.html

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>; RealSTMFC@groups.io <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Aug 14, 2019 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car

Hi Scott,
 
               I don’t think anybody has actually answered your question about the dimensions of the model tank.  What dimensions did you measure, and how did you convert that to gallonage?
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of D. Scott Chatfield
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 2:15 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car
 
I know much has been written about this so-called USRA tank car, but I have a question.  What was the gallonage of said USRA design?
 
The reason I ask is I am decaling said Tichy tank car to represent a Milwaukee Road water car, which apparently was built by ACF in 1923 (if I read the fuzzy scan right).  It is a 10,000 gallon ARA III with a barrel made from four longitudinal courses.  Which basically matches the Tichy car.  But when I started putting decals on it I noticed they don't quite fall where they should.  So yes, there are several variables here, but when I measured the actual model I found its body has a volume of about 9000 to 9200 gallons.  Can't say I've ever laid eyes on a tank car that size.
 
So is the Tichy tank about 10% undersized?  Or is it correct for the plans for the never-built USRA tank, which I always thought was a 10,000 gallon tank.
 
Oh, while said Milwaukee Road water car is a post-1960 paint job, it will occasionally be switched by an NW2....
 
Scott Chatfield

Re: Tichy tank car

Tony Thompson
 

Ed Bommer wrote:

Jeff's question can be answered from knowing the inside dimensions of any tank - length and diameter in this case.
Those dimensions would be an few inches LESS than the outside measurements.

     Thee are complications with the domed heads and other issues. I explored ALL of that and came up with an excellent approximation to account for the details. It's at this link if you're interested:


And as Richard Townsend observed, I calculated way back in 2012 that the Tichy tank volume is 9840 gallons.
     BTW, in response to Scott Chatfield's comment about dome volume, it was required to be a MINIMUM of 2 percent of the tank volume. Car buyers could choose to have larger domes if they wished.

Tony Thompson
Berkeley, CA


Re: Tichy tank car

Douglas Harding
 

Ed you need to adjust your math. There are 8 pints in a gallon at 1 lb per pint. There are 16 cups in a gallon at ½ lb per cup. Meaning a gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. Thus a 100 gallons would weigh 800lbs.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Edward
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 1:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tichy tank car

 

Jeff's question can be answered from knowing the inside dimensions of any tank - length and diameter in this case.
Those dimensions would be an few inches LESS than the outside measurements.
Calculate the cubic footage of the tank interior as a cylinder. Do not include dome capacity.

100 gallons occupies13.36 cubic feet, with a water weight of 213.76 lbs. 
(1 gallon is 1.336 cubic feet. A gallon of water has 16 pints weighing a pound each, if you are seeking weight).

Divide the total volume of the tank by 13.36 to get the gallonage in 100's.
Round this down to the nearest gross thousands to find a nominal gallon capacity.
These are often stated as 5,000, 6,000, 8,000,10,000 12,000 etc. but could vary by being slightly larger as well.

For water weight capacity in pounds of each nominal size tank, multiply by 16.
I think water weight for fluid loads was generally used in weight capacity calculations.
These determined journal / bearing  sizes for the trucks used under a tank car. 

Other fluids may vary by weight, being lighter or heavier from their chemical composition.
A gallon of gasoline weighs less than a gallon of water, for example.
A gallon of sulfuric acid is heavier.

Ed Bommer 

Re: Tichy tank car

Edward
 

Yep, Doug!
You got me there. I was going too fast in my post. 
Many thanks for the correction.
Ed Bommer 

Re: Tichy tank car

rdgbuff56
 

Having been a volunteer firefighter for 45 years,  a gallon of water always weighed 8.34 pounds not 16.

Francis A. Pehowic,  Jr. 
Sunbury,  Pa.

On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 6:17:45 PM UTC, Edward <edb8391@...> wrote:


Jeff's question can be answered from knowing the inside dimensions of any tank - length and diameter in this case.
Those dimensions would be an few inches LESS than the outside measurements.
Calculate the cubic footage of the tank interior as a cylinder. Do not include dome capacity.

100 gallons occupies13.36 cubic feet, with a water weight of 213.76 lbs. 
(1 gallon is 1.336 cubic feet. A gallon of water has 16 pints weighing a pound each, if you are seeking weight).

Divide the total volume of the tank by 13.36 to get the gallonage in 100's.
Round this down to the nearest gross thousands to find a nominal gallon capacity.
These are often stated as 5,000, 6,000, 8,000,10,000 12,000 etc. but could vary by being slightly larger as well.

For water weight capacity in pounds of each nominal size tank, multiply by 16.
I think water weight for fluid loads was generally used in weight capacity calculations.
These determined journal / bearing  sizes for the trucks used under a tank car. 

Other fluids may vary by weight, being lighter or heavier from their chemical composition.
A gallon of gasoline weighs less than a gallon of water, for example.
A gallon of sulfuric acid is heavier.

Ed Bommer 

Re: Tichy tank car

Dave Parker
 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 12:36 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
 BTW, in response to Scott Chatfield's comment about dome volume, it was required to be a MINIMUM of 2 percent of the tank volume. Car buyers could choose to have larger domes if they wished.
Just to clarify, the 2% requirement dates only to the creation of, and mandatory construction to, the Class III  and IV standards of May, 1917.  Many, perhaps the majority, of Class II cars had domes noticeably smaller than this minimum percentage, and many were used in interchange for decades thereafter.

And indeed some car buyers (Texcao most notably) insisted on larger, sometimes much larger, domes.  The reason was that depending on the commodity, and the loading temperature, 2% was an insufficient expansion volume, and extra headspace had to be provided by not filling the tank to 100% of capacity.  Each car design had an outage table to allow shippers to "conveniently"  determine the correct fill level.  Texaco obviously preferred to simplify things, which is why their ACF Type 21 10 kgal cars had 420-gal domes (versus the "standard" ACF build of 210 gallons).

Dave Parker  
Riverside, CA

Re: Tichy tank car

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

And indeed some car buyers (Texcao most notably) insisted on larger, sometimes much larger, domes.  The reason was that depending on the commodity, and the loading temperature, 2% was an insufficient expansion volume, and extra headspace had to be provided by not filling the tank to 100% of capacity. 

     This seems an odd story. The MCB report which was the basis for the 2 percent rule had accepted input from many shippers of all kinds, to create a "safe" volume. Perhaps Texaco wasn't shipping high-expansion products before 1917.

Each car design had an outage table to allow shippers to "conveniently"  determine the correct fill level.  

      The widely-used convention was to fill a car "shell full," which meant, just to the very top of the horizontal cylindrical part, easily seen through the manway during filling. The gallonage stenciled on the end of the tank reflected filling to that level.

Tony Thompson