Date   

MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Andy Carlson
 

Don, I can surmise that your chemist friend has never built styrene single sheathed patterns, at least not with ACC.

Years ago Al Armitage recommended MEK for styrene fabrication for multiple reasons. Not lost on me was his mentioning MEK is 100% evaporative--that is, every bit of MEK we use will dissipate away to nothingness. You may wonder why this is important; and it is to prevent sometime reactions of residual solvent with RTV mold material. The gentleman who mentored me on mold making and casting started out with model pattern making using Testors liquid cement and many of his early molds had problems curing completely. This was prevented with the switch to MEK.

I have evolved beyond being struck with warpage years ago. Laminating 0.005" styrene plates to a thicker styrene substrate caused lots of warping. That has been solved with a glueing technique I have shared with this group a few times over the years.

Regards to everyone!
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 6:09:33 AM PDT, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:


    OK folks, Bill Aldrich, whom as I mentioned has a doctorate Inorgamic Chemistry, kicked this cement business
around for about 45 minutes. For small plastic parts/pieces and such Bill uses ACC for almost everything. For other
things he uses acetone and keeps it in a bottle with a cork or rubber stopper to seal it tightly and not lose it from
evaporation.......He also uses ACC when joining sheet material and notes that cements
that actually dissolve sheet material to join them cause a warpage problem that may not show up for a year or more.
This is because even if the sheets being joined are of the same material all too often each sheet with cure at a different
rate. Since there is shrinkage involved in the curing a different rate in each sheet will cause warping. Thus he uses the
ACC for sheets as well as all small parts. He did note that MEK or trichloroethylene can be used but doesn't particularly
recommend them.


Hope this information is helpful, Don Valentine


Re: what to do with all those leftover freight car trucks?

Richard McQuade
 

Thanks Tom. Great gondola load. Would never have thought of doing that.
Richard


Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Denny Anspach
 

After a determined try with seven paint suppliers in this region, this was my result: Five had in hand or would only order MEK substitute. One had MEK in gallons @$49.00. One (Menard’s) had a deep shelf of MEK quarts @$9.50. The 20 miles drive to secure the latter was leavened completely by a nearby stunningly-delicious(!) supper of lengua, onions and cilantro (in Iowa, no less!).

I thank all of those who have divulged the chemical formulations. This kind of information will almost certainly be more and more useful for many in this hobby.

I am a big fan of Tamiya products, and I am surely going to try their thin cement. I have a can of their new-to-me semi-gloss clear coating that I am looking to for the many finishes that demand something more than dead flat, but not anywhere near a reflective gloss.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA


Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Donald B. Valentine
 

    OK folks, Bill Aldrich, whom as I mentioned has a doctorate Inorgamic Chemistry, kicked this cement business
around for about 45 minutes. For small plastic parts/pieces and such Bill uses ACC for almost everything. For other
things he uses acetone and keeps it in a bottle with a cork or rubber stopper to seal it tightly and not lose it from
evaporation. Pierre may not like this but Bill does NOT recommend MEK for plexiglass stating that it creates a weak
joint at best on all but very small pieces. He also uses ACC when joining sheet material and notes that cements
that actually dissolve sheet material to join them cause a warpage problem that may not show up for a year or more.
This is because even if the sheets being joined are of the same material all too often each sheet with cure at a different
rate. Since there is shrinkage involved in the curing a different rate in each sheet will cause warping. Thus he uses the
ACC for sheets as well as all small parts. He did note that MEK or trichloroethylene can be used but doesn't particularly
recommend them.

    Ambroid has been mentioned in several posts in this thread. Is it no longer available? Last I knew some ten years ago
a fellow in his mid-30's had purchased the line and moved it to Springfield, VT. I met him at some show or meet and he
was offering the standard old Ambroid cement in a tube and several new varieties in bottles. Is none of this available now?
Tenax has also been mentioned. In my experience it was never more than worthless. I was never able to join anything with
it and gave up with thje first bottle.

Hope this informaiton is helpful, Don Valentine


Re: SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK

Staffan Ehnbom
 

The GN 72750-72773 series container gondolas was extended to 72774 by the July 1970 ORER at least.

Staffan Ehnbom



On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:54 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ed, thanks for the additional pictures! I'm especially happy the car is
coupled to a Southern Pacific hopper!

However you might want to check your number series - 72774 is not part of any
of the series you listed.

I agree the reinforced ribs are just that, and nothing more. I wish those
Sunshine kits were still available!

Tim O'Connor




On 8/20/2019 12:00 PM, spsalso via Groups.Io wrote:

Tim,

The answer to your question is:  "Yes" and "No".

There are three number series of interest:  GN 72500-72749, GN 72750-72770, and GN 72771-72773.

The latter two were made up of cars pulled from the former, and were the ones used in container service.  So that's a qualified "Yes".

The "No" comes up because, first, the cars apparently got roller bearings fairly quickly after conversion.  Also, all the pictures of these cars in Thompson's book show additional reinforced ribs on the car side (2 per side) (see my photo).  He shows three shots of the container cars with the reinforcements.  But he also shows one shot of a car in the "regular" series with the reinforcements.  As you know, Sunshine did these cars.  It would appear doable to add the reinforcing ribs.  I don't think Sunshine offered this version, though I could be wrong.

I am attaching two overhead views of the car and the containers.  From the pictures, I don't see that there was any modification to the inside of the car for the containers.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


what to do with all those leftover freight car trucks?

Tim O'Connor
 

Tom Swift has been posting wonderful pictures on Facebook of the CB&Q Havelock shops
in 1948. This one today shows a very interesting MP GS gondola being unloaded and a
wide area shot showing lots of interesting freight car stuff.

Tim O'Connor



--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK

Tim O'Connor
 


This is what happened to at least one of those Greenville 1321's... :-)


On 8/20/2019 3:22 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:

If anyone is interested here are two of the three “oddballs” on my western railroad.

Thanks for all of the responses.  Your opinions are all valued.

Bill Pardie

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK

Tim O'Connor
 


Ed, thanks for the additional pictures! I'm especially happy the car is
coupled to a Southern Pacific hopper!

However you might want to check your number series - 72774 is not part of any
of the series you listed.

I agree the reinforced ribs are just that, and nothing more. I wish those
Sunshine kits were still available!

Tim O'Connor




On 8/20/2019 12:00 PM, spsalso via Groups.Io wrote:
Tim,

The answer to your question is:  "Yes" and "No".

There are three number series of interest:  GN 72500-72749, GN 72750-72770, and GN 72771-72773.

The latter two were made up of cars pulled from the former, and were the ones used in container service.  So that's a qualified "Yes".

The "No" comes up because, first, the cars apparently got roller bearings fairly quickly after conversion.  Also, all the pictures of these cars in Thompson's book show additional reinforced ribs on the car side (2 per side) (see my photo).  He shows three shots of the container cars with the reinforcements.  But he also shows one shot of a car in the "regular" series with the reinforcements.  As you know, Sunshine did these cars.  It would appear doable to add the reinforcing ribs.  I don't think Sunshine offered this version, though I could be wrong.

I am attaching two overhead views of the car and the containers.  From the pictures, I don't see that there was any modification to the inside of the car for the containers.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: NWSL to continue business

Pierre Oliver
 

Oh wouldn't that be nice!

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 8/20/19 6:46 p.m., Tony Thompson wrote:

It's super good news that NWSL will continue. Maybe they could buy up Reboxx <g>.

Tony Thompson




Re: NWSL to continue business

Tony Thompson
 

It's super good news that NWSL will continue. Maybe they could buy up Reboxx <g>.

Tony Thompson




Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Bill Welch
 
Edited

I use Tamiya Extra Thin when I want quicker results than Testers. otherwise Testers for it slowness, as when I am harvesting and gluing down rivets/bolt heads. I have one of the older squat Testers bottles that I refill while the Tamiya bottle is also squat and thus less prone to getting tipped.

There has been a shortage of the Tamiya product so I bought two bottle at the C'ville RPM and illegally secured one each in my sneakers in my suitcase. Bag was searched but the Tamiya made it through. The Tamiya brush is nice and small and telescopes to reach the bottom when necessary.

Bill Welch


Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny

Tenax is dichloromethane (aka methylene chloride). I bought a QUART on Amazon.

MEK is methylethylketone, or 2-butanone. I have a quart of that too. :-)

Tim O'

===========================

On 8/20/2019 9:55 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:
I am on the very edge of using up the last drops of my Tenax and Ambroid liquid plastic cements, and I was jolted this morning when my reliable ACE Hardware store informed me that they can no longer carry my otherwise usual MEK (and this is IOWA, not California). I do have some Testors (2-3 years old), but at least the bottle that I have seems to take forever or…. not at all to set up.

ACE does carry MEK Substitute (clearly so identified), but I have no idea what it is or what it might be, and I am loathe to buy a quart of something that may not at all work. What are other listers’ experiences these days?

Excuse the cross-listing.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Donald B. Valentine
 

Jon Miller wrote:

 I've never had any luck using MEK to join Plexiglas.  I use a acrylics cement from TAP plastic.  The can says Dichloromethane contains; Methylene chloride
Trichloroethylene
Methyl Methacrylate Monomer
    Anyone know a chemist?:


    Yes, as a matter of fact. Noted New Haven modeler Bill Aldrich has a doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry and a second one in Metallurgy. Since we speak three or four tims a week I will ask him.

Cordially, Don Valentine




Re: SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK

WILLIAM PARDIE
 






If anyone is interested here are two of the three “oddballs” on my western railroad.

Thanks for all of the responses.  Your opinions are all valued.

Bill Pardie


Re: Paint Damage from Bubble Wrap

Tim O'Connor
 

Brian

No, they don't. I have ordered BUNDLES of boxes and envelopes from the Post Office web
site. These come in many sizes and a single bundle is around 25 boxes I think. I ordered
them online, and the post office delivered them in a couple of days. NO CHARGE.

I do use them to mail stuff (there is postage for that), so I'm not taking advantage.
It's just their way of "priming the pump".

Tim O'Connor


On 8/20/2019 1:09 AM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI wrote:
When you send the package, they scan the bar code on the envelope or box to charge you. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

In the course of this thread a photo of Greatr Northern gondola #72600 was submitted.  This caught my attention as I had bought this kit from sunshine many years ago.  I backed down from building it while I pondered how to do the tie down loops on the sides of the car (this was not in the 
Sunshine instructions0). The photo brings the car back into my list of priorities or if someone has the SL-SF stock car mentioned last week I would be willing to trade.

Bill Pardie

On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:55 AM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Bill I had the same thoughts about the Broadway Limited PRR K7A stockcar, never thought needed one and have so far avoided buying one. Then I found a document showing one was loaded in S St Paul MN destined for a farmer on the M&StL in Minburn, Iowa, in 1945. That is close enough to my time frame to justify the occasional appearance. Despite what many think, stockcars did get off road. And yes a PRR would be an oddball, but it did happen occasionally. Plus the MSTL had a direct connection the PRR at Peoria, meaning it may have happened more than once.
 
Doug  Harding
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 2:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO BLINK
 
<image001.jpg>
 
The comments following Lester Brewer’s post on his excellent container car got my attention.  When if finished the above car I felt that as a Southern Pacific modeler this car never saw SP trackage.  My suspicions were reinforced by the comments that Lester’s cart probably never ventured off line.  I recently uncovered pbotos of a single DT&I hoopper cdar and a red, white and blue New Haven car in San Francisco gave credence to a couple of other (odd balls) on my roster.
 
Until somthing turns up on this I will just have to blink:
 
Bill Pardie



Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Gary Ray
 

What are you wanting to know from a chemist?  I’m currently visiting my daughter who has a degree in organic chemistry.

Gary Ray

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

 

On 8/20/2019 7:01 AM, Pierre Oliver wrote:

MEK is used by the pint for plexiglas joinery 

    I've never had any luck using MEK to join Plexiglas.  I use a acrylics cement from TAP plastic.  The can says Dichloromethane contains;

Methylene chloride
Trichloroethylene
Methyl Methacrylate Monomer

    Anyone know a chemist?:-D

 

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Scott H. Haycock
 

In My area, You can get it from Sherwin-Williams Paint stores.

Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantment

On August 20, 2019 at 7:55 AM Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...> wrote:


I am on the very edge of using up the last drops of my Tenax and Ambroid liquid plastic cements, and I was jolted this morning when my reliable ACE Hardware store informed me that they can no longer carry my otherwise usual MEK (and this is IOWA, not California). I do have some Testors (2-3 years old), but at least the bottle that I have seems to take forever or…. not at all to set up.

ACE does carry MEK Substitute (clearly so identified), but I have no idea what it is or what it might be, and I am loathe to buy a quart of something that may not at all work. What are other listers’ experiences these days?

Excuse the cross-listing.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA




Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Tony Thompson
 

      We have discussed on this list before, the issues around changing environmental regulations. Most of things we THINK are banned, aren't. But there is a lot more paperwork for handling some of it, and chain stores understandably don't want to be bothered. Lead sheet is one, though roofer's stores still sell it freely in California. It is pretty hard to find some solvents in California today, including MEK, but professional painter's supply houses have it, along with places like boat shops or plastics stores. Or at least they did two years ago, when I checked around to see.
       Most of these rules have arisen because of misuse of these materials, and probably rightly so. But it can be inconvenient for hobbyists, who generally use pretty small amounts of these materials.

Tony Thompson




Re: MEK Substitute and current plastic cements

Jim Betz
 

Denny,
  You might try a boat shop (such as West Marine), a plastics shop (such as
Tap Plastics), or a paint shop (especially one that supplies paint to 
commercial painters doing car/boat restorations).  Ace or other "retail
shops" are unlikely to want to bother with MEK (too few sales to justify
having it on the shelves/dealing with the 'special' shipping).

  MEK can no longer be mailed and shipping it in small quantities is
essentially unrealistically expensive.  California state regulations are
more restrictive on all hazardous products than just about anywhere
in the country ... but you might find it in Iowa ("Eye-Oh-Way") if you
look somewhere other than an Ace.
  Handling/using MEK is not to be taken lightly and proper
ventilation is not just recommended it is required. 

  Personally, I'm still working thru my stock of Tenax and am
unlikely to ever consider MEK. 

    - Jim B. (who found MEK listed as in stock in a West Marine in Burlington, Wa.)