Date   
Re: Ratios

Tim O'Connor
 

Jason

I think at least SOME of Tim Gilbert's data was not from train lists, but from "cars on hand"
data - some railroads published this kind of data e.g. Great Northern annual reports. A railroad
might have a good supply of home road cars "on hand" that were just waiting for assignments, or
waiting for repairs. The PRR was famous for having tens of thousands of bad ordered cars on line
just being held for repairs, or retirement. I've seen railroad yard photos that shows scads of
home road cars of all kinds coupled together in long lines...

A great type of data is to know percentages of (1a) originated loads that terminate online (1b)
that terminate offline and (2a) received loads that terminate online or (2b) are interchanged to
other roads. Knowing AAR rules etc, one can make intelligent guesses about model consists that
represent these traffic flows.

Tim




On 9/15/2019 5:53 PM, Jason Kliewer wrote:
I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Garth,
  I was thinking more of modifications to the track than to the cars ... Jim

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Ed,
  That car you are saying is NP has a metal roof - if I'm seeing it right. - Jim

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Rufus,
  You may be right - but in one version of the photo that I viewed I felt
that I was seeing both N and P and that they were properly spaced.  - Jim
Not saying I'm right and you are wrong.

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

  So a -major- part of my question is/was "is there a way to get the running 
boards of our models to look like these?".  I'm thinking that maybe you
start by eliminating the plastic version, use actual wood that has been
properly dimensioned (probably have to sand to correct thickness?), and
then 'process' it to warp it like these have warped.  Might have to start
with stock pieces that are much longer than scale, get them to 'wiggle'
then cut to length.  Finally - mix them up so you don't get a lot of boards
that were out of the same piece on the same car.
  Doing the running board supports between the car top and the boards
will be a major PITA (meaning lots of work) since, at least as far as I
know, there aren't any good options for those in either wood or plastic.
Perhaps this is a candidate for 3D printing?
                                                                                  - Jim in Burlington

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 


  ... suggestions for my word "process" in the prior?

  I'm speculating that maybe wetting the wood and then sandwiching
it between two pieces of glass to eliminate vertical warping ...

  Ideas for wetting other than water or "wet water"?
                                                                                      - Jim

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Jim – Tichy makes running board supports.  Part 3081.

 

Rob Kirkham

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2019 4:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

 

Hi,

  So a -major- part of my question is/was "is there a way to get the running 
boards of our models to look like these?".  I'm thinking that maybe you
start by eliminating the plastic version, use actual wood that has been
properly dimensioned (probably have to sand to correct thickness?), and
then 'process' it to warp it like these have warped.  Might have to start
with stock pieces that are much longer than scale, get them to 'wiggle'
then cut to length.  Finally - mix them up so you don't get a lot of boards
that were out of the same piece on the same car.
  Doing the running board supports between the car top and the boards
will be a major PITA (meaning lots of work) since, at least as far as I
know, there aren't any good options for those in either wood or plastic.
Perhaps this is a candidate for 3D printing?
                                                                                  - Jim in Burlington

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

steve_wintner
 

I would hesitate to overdo it. I guess I would attempt building one up using styrene, cut into individual boards. My own attempts at that would inherently  have a bit of wiggle and warpage. Add a bit of paint, one board weathered more than it's neighbor, etc. See how that worked, then give it another shot.

Have fun
Steve


Re: Ratios

Donald B. Valentine
 

Randy Hamill wrote:

"Although I generally agree with the Gilbert-Nelson approach, along with Bruce Smith’s percentages, they are very dependent upon the road you model. 

Bruce models the PRR, so 75% home road hoppers on any coal hauling road makes sense. But I model the NH that has a modest fleet of hoppers of less than 1,000, with little originating traffic that would send them offline. So home road hoppers make up a very small part of my fleet.

Understanding your road’s traffic is very important. For example, as much as 60% of the coal entering CT in my era was by water. That appears to have been Pocahontas and other bituminous coming through Baltimore, and I think was the primary source of coal loaded in NH hoppers to be distributed to industry, but particularly the railroad’s facilities. On the other hand, anthracite came primarily via Maybrook, unless you were in the vicinity of NYC, in which case it came mostly by float via Jersey City and Greenville. So I go with the anthracite hoppers as a mix of 75% home road of their loading point.

So the mix of hoppers is very dependent on whether you’re modeling a coal road or not, I think.

Gondolas and flats are the same, and since the NH was heavily involved in manufacturing, gondolas were also predominantly foreign. Like the hoppers, I think gondolas and flats are far more dependent on the home road of the loading point. 

I also think we often have too little variety (and too few) “rare” cars. I have two pictures, from different days, with ATSF Ga-8 gons, and these weren’t photographed because of their rarity, they just happened to be on those trains. Likewise the photos of the Litchfield & Madison gondola in New Britain. Numerous pictures of C&I hoppers, etc.

I’m not saying those happen every day, but based on those and many, many other photos that have “rare” cars (often in the background) show that there’s a wider variety than many allow. I think we often make the mistake of not having enough different “rare” cars to mix in, making the couple of rare cars that are owned very common on our layouts."

   

Hi Randy and all,

    I could not agree more with the last nine words of your first sentence, "they are very dependent upon the road you model".
The rest of what u have presented echos my own experience as well. I'm not going to suggest that Bruce's percentages are
incorrect but they in no way reflect traffic patterns of the roads in Northern New England. The key point that is borne out in hundreds of action photos of trains in Northern New England is that as much as 75 to 80% of the cars found in trains within the region were all boxcars! That seems to be quite different than the averages that have been suggested by Bruce and others. This is particularly true in the 1945 to 1950 period that I model. Using the Central Vermont as an example, the bulk of the traffic arriving in Italy Yard in St. Albans, Vermont, not 20 miles south of the Canadian border was brought there by parent Canadian National in trains that originated in the American mid-west, may not have been switched since leaving Chicago if originating on the Grand Trunk Western and was often picked up with CV #700 class 2-10-4's operating as far west as Brockville, Ontario and coming to St. Albans via the former Canada Atlantic line from Coteau Jct. and through Valleyfield, PQ to by-pass Montreal. Needless to state much of this was differential traffic taking advantage of the lower freight rates this provided. Much of it was also grain from both the American West and the Canadian West. Most of theat from the Canadian West was export grain while muchof the from the American midwest would be processed in transit under that rating system in grain mills in Northern New England for shipment further south in 100 lb. bags in boxcars that could be headed home that way or in boxcars frm whichever road the grain was processed on. Carloads of Canadian lumber for on line delivery or overhead traffic must also be considered. Parts for the Ford Assembly Plant formerly located in Somerville, Mass. also cam in boxcars excepet for the framws , which usually came in DT&I gons via the Canadian Pacific all the way from Windsor, Ontario until they arrived on the B&M at Wells River, VT. The traffic coming down the Grand Trunk in this period was much the same as a fair amount of grain was still going out through Portland, Maine in this era. Any Canadian made paper was also coming in boxcars.The hopper cars we saw were all coming up form the south and the further north one traveled the few of them were seen. Here to coal cold be seen coming north in B&O cars, the most plentiful and the cars most coal for the CV arrived in. Anthracite was largely found in D&H, Erie, Lackawanna or Reading cars. Pennsy and NYC cars were fairly common and a few C&O and N&W cars could be seen. Most coal from the C&O and N&W was tide coal that arrived at New England ports and was delivered in home road hoppers. Even the little Rutland handled much of the coal received from the NYC at Norwood, NY in this manner by transfering it to home road cars through the use of it large coal trestle at the side of its yard in ALburgh, VT. Tank cars in those years were not as common as hoppers but almost all gasoline and oil arrived in 8,000 and 10,000 gal. tank cars, again with fewer being seen the further north one went. With this traffic basis my car fleet does not begin to meet what Bruce has suggested for percentages and I don't think anything has been missed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: Ratios

Donald B. Valentine
 

It was not just the reefer fleet that the BAR needed only for the potato harvest, it was also motive power. Until the BAR worked a deal with the Pennsy that sent BAR power to the Pennsy during the summer ore hauling season and PRR power to the BAR for the potato harvest it was not uncommon to see New Haven DL-109's on the BAR for the potato rush. I'm not certain how many seasons the New Haven power was used but it seems to have been about the only time Alco diesel power was seen on the BAR, which had been a loyal Alco customer in steam days.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: Paging Jim Singer

Greg Martin
 

Steve,

Did you get a hold of Jim?

Greg Martin


Why Yes I have done some modeling...

Sent from AOL Desktop

In a message dated 9/10/2019 11:42:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, shile@... writes:

I am looking to reach Jim Singer and don't believe he does much email.  Could someone share, privately, his phone number?

Use the Reply to Sender link or contact me directly as shile AT mindspring DOT com (replacing, well, you know...)

Thanks,
Steve Hile

--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Nelson Moyer
 

Plano offers etched metal running board brackets that you may wish to check out.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robert kirkham
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2019 7:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

 

Hi Jim – Tichy makes running board supports.  Part 3081.

 

Rob Kirkham

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2019 4:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

 

Hi,

  So a -major- part of my question is/was "is there a way to get the running 
boards of our models to look like these?".  I'm thinking that maybe you
start by eliminating the plastic version, use actual wood that has been
properly dimensioned (probably have to sand to correct thickness?), and
then 'process' it to warp it like these have warped.  Might have to start
with stock pieces that are much longer than scale, get them to 'wiggle'
then cut to length.  Finally - mix them up so you don't get a lot of boards
that were out of the same piece on the same car.
  Doing the running board supports between the car top and the boards
will be a major PITA (meaning lots of work) since, at least as far as I
know, there aren't any good options for those in either wood or plastic.
Perhaps this is a candidate for 3D printing?
                                                                                  - Jim in Burlington

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Tony Thompson
 

Steve Wintner wrote:

I would hesitate to overdo it. I guess I would attempt building one up using styrene, cut into individual boards. My own attempts at that would inherently  have a bit of wiggle and warpage. Add a bit of paint, one board weathered more than it's neighbor, etc. See how that worked, then give it another shot.

    We can provide the variation in color and texture pretty easily. I have written a couple of blog posts about how I do so. If you're interested, here are a couple of links:



Tony Thompson



Re: Ratios

devansprr
 

Randy, all,

"Understanding your road's traffic is very important" can't be emphasized enough. Bruce mentioned Reading traffic in his PRR area of interest (Columbia, PA, about 20 miles south of Harrisburg on the east side of the Susquehanna river.)

My area of interest is the mainline starting about 30 miles RR west of Columbia. Purchase of several WWII vintage PRR documents on car routing provides some major insights. Yes, for loads, many of us have decided that the distribution of loaded cars can match Bruce's proposed numbers, especially for a mainline functioning as a major US bridge line (as the PRR was between Pittsburgh and east coast destinations, especially during WWII.)

One of the PRR documents I found was specifically on how to route foreign road empties towards their home roads. Keep in mind on the PRR during WWII, there was a tremendous imbalance of loads versus empties. Less than 1% empties EB, 75% empties WB. Ignoring the PRR's large EB coal traffic, 60% of the WB non-hopper cars were empty.

While the 40% of those cars that were loaded might still reflect the national averages, for the empties, there could be significant deviations. Case in point was the NYC - operator of the second largest fleet of box cars. If the yardmaster's followed the PRR guidance, there would be no WB empty NYC cars west of Harrisburg on the PRR mainline. They were sent in a different direction (in fact in central PA, the PRR seems to have enjoyed returning NYC empties to a location on the NYC that was likely very inconvenient for the NYC to deal with ;-)  The NYC cars would still be used for loads, but for WB non-hopper trains, the NYC cars should be under-represented.

The other twist was limitations on car clearances, which in the east were often inadequate for many western RR XM's.  For the PRR, that meant that the taller XM's would be on trains running between Harrisburg and Chicago, since there were clearance limits along the line towards St. Louis. (The PRR booklet lists every single class of XM for every railroad, with notes on where they could, and could not, be routed.)

While not impacting the average distribution of cars flowing across the railroad, it could have significant impact on the consists of individual merchandise trains, just because of their ultimate destination, For example, all the tall XM's (loads and MTY's) on WB trains were routed towards Chicago (for tall cars destined for the SW US, those cars would use a division in Indiana to get back to the line to St. Louis). XM's on the trains headed directly toward St. Louis would be limited to the shorter XM's.  This offers some unique challenges a superintendent may want to impose on their yardmaster when classifying and blocking XM's....

Dave Evans

Paint and decal steps for models

Eric Hansmann
 

Paint, decals, and a gloss coat finish are the latest steps on a couple of box car kits. Those summaries and an RPM reminder are in the latest DesignBuildOp blog post. 

http://designbuildop.hansmanns.org/2019/09/16/gloss-coat-and-rpms/


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

Re: Boston & Albany triple hopper.

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks,
 
     Does anyone have enough familiarity with Boston & Albany triple hoppers to comment on the Marklin B&A hopper 
listed on eBay as Item #372692339988? Not a bad looking car in which I have some interest but don't know Boston & 
 Albany rolling stock well enough to judge its authenticity.

Thanks for any responses, Don Valentine

Re: Boston & Albany triple hopper.

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine asked:
"Does anyone have enough familiarity with Boston & Albany triple hoppers to comment on the Marklin B&A hopper listed on eBay as Item #372692339988? Not a bad looking car in which I have some interest but don't know Boston &  Albany rolling stock well enough to judge its authenticity."
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Marklin-H-O-NYC-R-R-Boston-Albany-Coal-Hopper-Car-from-Set-29571/372692339988 

Complete fantasy.  This is one of the Trix UP hoppers in bogus Boston & Albany paint and lettering.

Boston & Albany had a single series of offset triples - B&A 25000-25499, Lot 597-H, 500 cars built in 1929.  They follow the unique NYCS triple offset design, differing from the later AAR offset triples.  They were painted with fairly austere lettering with no oval.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-597.jpg 
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/b&a-25144.jpg 

B&A would later acquire NYC 15-post welded triples (as modeled by Stewart/Bowser in HO) during the 1960s after the period covered by this list. 


Ben Hom

covered hopper grays take 2

Eric Mumper
 

Group,

The last email about this subject did not provide a lot of responses which I kind of figured on as it is really obscure.

Let me try this another way:  If you have painted a covered hopper gray from the steam era, please respond with what paint you used and the model it was used on.  Any other information included with the response would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Eric Mumper
eric.mumper@...

Re: covered hopper grays take 2

O Fenton Wells
 

I like SCII primer, then gloss
Fenton

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:03 PM Eric Mumper <eric.mumper@...> wrote:
Group,

The last email about this subject did not provide a lot of responses which I kind of figured on as it is really obscure.

Let me try this another way:  If you have painted a covered hopper gray from the steam era, please respond with what paint you used and the model it was used on.  Any other information included with the response would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Eric Mumper
eric.mumper@...



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...(Mixed Material Running Boards)

Bob Chaparro
 

Notice the roof on the reefer in the foreground. It appears running board repairs were done "on the cheap"
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA